Sabres to walk away from Dumont

[Buftex]

That is what I don't like about arbitration. The Sabres don't want to pay Dumont the arbitration amount, so now any team (including Buffalo) can sign him for any price...it seems sort of pointless...and would seem to harbour bad blood between a team and player. I agree the amount was too stiff for Dumont (who I like a lot), but what are the chances he will want to come back to Buffalo now? It seems like a very flawed system...

[shrader]

That is what I don't like about arbitration.  The Sabres don't want to pay Dumont the arbitration amount, so now any team (including Buffalo) can sign him for any price...it seems sort of pointless...and would seem to harbour bad blood between a team and player.  I agree the amount was too stiff for Dumont (who I like a lot), but what are the chances he will want to come back to Buffalo now?  It seems like a very flawed system...

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The only real purpose that I see to it is that it cuts back on long contract hold outs like the Peca situation a few years back.

[Taro T]

In the interview w/ D'ohopp, Darcy stated that he tried to trade Dumont but the only offers he got for him were for an NHLer coming back. Basically, they weren't going to get any salary relief.

 

If they had signed Dumont their payroll (as used for calculating where they are in relation to the salary cap) would have been at $41.9MM with 20 players signed. They still have Miller and Kalinin to sign and 1 other player that could be on the team to have a full roster of 23 players. (Because the farm team is so close, they may only use 22 players to save ~$500k.)

 

There is no way they could get those 2 signed for any deal that would cost less than the $2.1MM they would have had available.

 

Teams can exceed the salary cap by 10% until the end of training camp. At that time, any team above the cap would need to reduce payroll IMMEDIATELY. It would appear that Darcy felt he would have even fewer and worse options at the beginning of October than he had now.

 

Had he signed Dumont and then cut him on October 1, the team would have only saved 1/3 of his $2.9MM contract. They would have given him 1/3 this season and 1/3 next season. Instead of having $2.9MM of cap room this year and next, the team would gain almost $2MM in cap room this year and then get charged nearly $1MM next year.

 

For a team that officially showed only a modest profit on a $31MM salary (which is what payroll was when IR'd salaries are included), throwing away nearly $2MM on a payroll that will be ~$7MM higher is not exactly fiscally prudent.

 

Hopefully, the offer the Sabres made will be something that JP can live with and other teams don't beat. I'd be surprised to see that happen, though.

[Taro T]

The only real purpose that I see to it is that it cuts back on long contract hold outs like the Peca situation a few years back.

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That is the entire purpose for including arbitration in the CBA.

 

It gives the player the opportunity to get a contract in a very reasonable time period or it gives him UFA status. Either way, a holdout is unlikely.

 

Especially with the new CBA including a clause that pretty much keeps players holding out into December from being able to play at all that season.

[Buftex]

That is the entire purpose for including arbitration in the CBA. 

 

It gives the player the opportunity to get a contract in a very reasonable time period or it gives him UFA status.  Either way, a holdout is unlikely. 

 

Especially with the new CBA including a clause that pretty much keeps players holding out into December from being able to play at all that season.

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Maybe I am not getting all of the complexities of arbirtration and the new CBA down (I used to love hockey, because this stuff was not part of the game for most everyday fans), but it would seem that some players could really f**k themselves by filing for arbitration, if they overestimate their own value to their team.

 

Dumont may have been awarded the amount he thought he would get from the arbitrator, but he is not going to get it from anyone, so what is the point? It only makes it more difficult for him to return to his original team (and the bad blood would have to be there, I am guessing), or limits his options in "free" agencey, at this late date, as so many free agent signgings have already been made.

 

Obviously, no other NHL team is going to give him the amount the arbitrator awarded him, so the Sabres would have little incentive to either. Sure, the Sabres may very well lose him, but if they don't, they get him for an amount lower than the arbitration award. It seems like kind of a flawed system to me.

 

Dumont, it seems to me, in retrospect, screwed himsel...and it is too bad, because, while I think the Sabres will likely be okay without him, he was one of those vets, capable of getting very hot, that all of the great teams seem to have in the playoffs...I know he wasn't the greatest all-around talent on the team, just a good offensive threat....

[Oneonta Buffalo Fan]

2.9 million was waaaaaaaaaaaaay too much for Dumont, Sabres were smart to let him go.

 

Save that cash to help re-sign Miller and Kalinin.

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I wonder how many years Miller will get re-signed for. I say a 5 year deal.

[Taro T]

Maybe I am not getting all of the complexities of arbirtration and the new CBA down (I used to love hockey, because this stuff was not part of the game for most everyday fans), but it would seem that some players could really f**k themselves by filing for arbitration, if they overestimate their own value to their team. 

 

Dumont may have been awarded the amount he thought he would get from the arbitrator, but he is not going to get it from anyone, so what is the point?  It only makes it more difficult for him to return to his original team (and the bad blood would have to be there, I am guessing), or limits his options in "free" agencey, at this late date, as so many free agent signgings have already been made. 

 

Obviously, no other NHL team is going to give him the amount the arbitrator awarded him, so the Sabres would have little incentive to either.  Sure, the Sabres may very well lose him, but if they don't, they get him for an amount lower than the arbitration award.  It seems like kind of a flawed system to me.

 

Dumont, it seems to me, in retrospect, screwed himsel...and it is too bad, because, while I think the Sabres will likely be okay without him, he was one of those vets, capable of getting very hot, that all of the great teams seem to have in the playoffs...I know he wasn't the greatest all-around talent on the team, just a good offensive threat....

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Arbitration, as with most anything else, does have the potential to bite a player in the butt. (Of course, it also has the potential to bite the team in the butt.)

 

There were 69 players that filed for arbitration this off season. Of those, 56 settled before going to arbitration (meaning contract negotiations that probably would have lasted until late September or into early October were done ~2 months quicker). 11 players got awards that the team accepted, so players like Briere and Gomez are now $5MM men. Only 2 players had their team walk away from the arbitrator's award (Tanabe and Dumont).

 

The system "worked" for ~97% of the guys that filed for arbitration. Even for players that had the arbitrator side with management, they now have a contract and can report to camp on time and nearly all of them become UFA's after this season. Not having a season disrupted by negotiating through camp and possibly October benefits even those guys.

 

You are absolutely correct that it is a flawed system, but if it didn't exist a lot more of the 67 that did get deals would not have them now.

 

As for no one giving Dumont $2.9MM/year, that is probably true, but we won't know that for certain until we see what he signs for. I could possibly see Montreal or St. Louis offering him $9MM over 3 years, although I think he had a much better chance of seeing something like that if he was an UFA on day 1. Also, had the Sabres total payroll likely ended up at $43MM w/ Dumont signed rather than $46MM and over the cap, I think that the Sabres would have signed him even though they were unhappy with the award.

 

When Dumont filed for arbitration, Tanguay, Gaborik, and Havlat had not signed their new deals. All 3 of those deals had an effect on the contracts awarded to forwards.

[Dr. Fong]

This is a HUGE misconception.  The core of this team is very much intact.  Nothing has been dismantled.  You're telling me they're really going to miss Grier and Pyatt???  Come on.  Adam Mair will do both of their jobs ten-fold.  Granted, McKee would've been nice to keep, but sorry, not at that price.  Good for him, it was his last big contract, and now he's set for life.  I'm just glad it's not counting against our cap.  Dumont would be nice to keep, too...But again, with the glut of forwards on this team, he is expendable.  If the contract doesn't fit our needs, bye bye.

 

Who else have they lost in this dismantling you speak of???

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I'm just saying it'd be nice to keep the team intact. But like I said I think the Sabres management has earned a lot of slack based on what they accomplished last year. I'm not saying the sky is falling.

[bills_fan]

In the interview w/ D'ohopp, Darcy stated that he tried to trade Dumont but the only offers he got for him were for an NHLer coming back. Basically, they weren't going to get any salary relief.

 

If they had signed Dumont their payroll (as used for calculating where they are in relation to the salary cap) would have been at $41.9MM with 20 players signed. They still have Miller and Kalinin to sign and 1 other player that could be on the team to have a full roster of 23 players. (Because the farm team is so close, they may only use 22 players to save ~$500k.)

 

There is no way they could get those 2 signed for any deal that would cost less than the $2.1MM they would have had available.

 

Teams can exceed the salary cap by 10% until the end of training camp. At that time, any team above the cap would need to reduce payroll IMMEDIATELY. It would appear that Darcy felt he would have even fewer and worse options at the beginning of October than he had now.

 

Had he signed Dumont and then cut him on October 1, the team would have only saved 1/3 of his $2.9MM contract. They would have given him 1/3 this season and 1/3 next season. Instead of having $2.9MM of cap room this year and next, the team would gain almost $2MM in cap room this year and then get charged nearly $1MM next year.

 

For a team that officially showed only a modest profit on a $31MM salary (which is what payroll was when IR'd salaries are included), throwing away nearly $2MM on a payroll that will be ~$7MM higher is not exactly fiscally prudent.

 

Hopefully, the offer the Sabres made will be something that JP can live with and other teams don't beat. I'd be surprised to see that happen, though.

 

So wait a second, we are now at 41.9 mil with Miller & Kalinin still to sign (on a 44 mil cap). OK, it makes sense to me that they would walk away from JP.

 

But, then you say that the Sabres have a modest profit on a 31 mil salary, that is expected to rise approx. 7 mil to approx. 38 mil.

 

I don't understand the discrepancy in numbers.

[shrader]

So wait a second, we are now at 41.9 mil with Miller & Kalinin still to sign (on a 44 mil cap).  OK, it makes sense to me that they would walk away from JP.

 

But, then you say that the Sabres have a modest profit on a 31 mil salary, that is expected to rise approx. 7 mil to approx. 38 mil.

 

I don't understand the discrepancy in numbers.

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Each player's cap hit is their average salary over the life of the contract. A lot of the new contracts they just signed escalate each year. Campbell's is a simple example. He's making 1.25 million this year and 1.75 million next year. That makes his cap hit 1.5 million.

[bills_fan]

Each player's cap hit is their average salary over the life of the contract. A lot of the new contracts they just signed escalate each year. Campbell's is a simple example. He's making 1.25 million this year and 1.75 million next year. That makes his cap hit 1.5 million.

 

So will we be at 38 mil or 41.9 mil with Miller and Kalinin to go? And will that be our cap figure for the year?

 

Can't blame the Sabres if they are in danger of going over the cap. If they are not even close to spending to the cap, thats another story.

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

Hope they can manage to sign him.

 

I called this kind of shenanigans at the end of the postseason.

[bills_fan]

I called this kind of shenanigans at the end of the postseason.

 

The point is there is no shenanighans if they are intent on spending TO the cap. If they are trying to keep payroll below the cap, thats another story. I'm trying to figure out which it is.

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

The point is there is no shenanighans if they are intent on spending TO the cap.  If they are trying to keep payroll below the cap, thats another story.  I'm trying to figure out which it is.

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I thought I read they are well below it.

[bills_fan]

I thought I read they are well below it.

 

According to Darcy in the radio link, they are almost at it with 2 more big contracts left to go. Can't blame them for walking away from the award if they are at the cap.

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

According to Darcy in the radio link, they are almost at it with 2 more big contracts left to go.  Can't blame them for walking away from the award if they are at the cap.

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Then yeah, if that's the case, it's just an unfortunate business necessity.

[shrader]

So will we be at 38 mil or 41.9 mil with Miller and Kalinin to go?  And will that be our cap figure for the year?

 

Can't blame the Sabres if they are in danger of going over the cap.  If they are not even close to spending to the cap, thats another story.

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We've been using this link over at the Sabres Report board and it breaks down the Sabres payroll/cap situation really well. It may not be perfect, but it's close.

 

http://members.shaw.ca/cdelosreyes/

[Taro T]

So wait a second, we are now at 41.9 mil with Miller & Kalinin still to sign (on a 44 mil cap).  OK, it makes sense to me that they would walk away from JP.

 

But, then you say that the Sabres have a modest profit on a 31 mil salary, that is expected to rise approx. 7 mil to approx. 38 mil.

 

I don't understand the discrepancy in numbers.

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Had, not have. I was referring back to last season's payroll and profit when mentioning the $31MM.

 

Sorry for any confusion caused.

[bills_fan]

We've been using this link over at the Sabres Report board and it breaks down the Sabres payroll/cap situation really well. It may not be perfect, but it's close.

 

http://members.shaw.ca/cdelosreyes/

 

Thanks for the link. If this is correct, then right now we are at 39.5 mil with Kalinin and Miller to go. Can't count JP at almost 3 and still get those two signed. Now I see why the Sabres almost have to walk away. Too bad we didn't get Briere signed at 3.5-4 mil per. That would have helped a lot.

 

One question...the 6/07 cap hit and the 6/07 salary numbers are different. The only thing that matters is the cap hit correct? And that is because the NHL using average salary over the life of the contract to compute the cap hit, correct? Than that would hurt in the early years (assuming backloaded deals) and help in the later years, if I'm reading this right?

 

Too bad it almost comes down to Marty or DuMont.

[Taro T]

Thanks for the link.  If this is correct, then right now we are at 39.5 mil with Kalinin and Miller to go.  Can't count JP at almost 3 and still get those two signed.  Now I see why the Sabres almost have to walk away.  Too bad we didn't get Briere signed at 3.5-4 mil per.  That would have helped a lot.

 

One question...the 6/07 cap hit and the 6/07 salary numbers are different.  The only thing that matters is the cap hit correct?  And that is because the NHL using average salary over the life of the contract to compute the cap hit, correct?  Than that would hurt in the early years (assuming backloaded deals) and help in the later years, if I'm reading this right?

 

Too bad it almost comes down to Marty or DuMont.

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To answer your ONE question: yes, yes, and yes.

 

You seem to have it.