Contract Details of Whitner

[Pyrite Gal]

Fair enough. How do you feel about this article? Hope, a proven NFL talent, signed for less than Whittner.

This in itself is admittedly not unusual in the NFL. The thing is, it does appear that despite what you say about the recent trend (which I do not dispute) of drafting safties earlier, Hope (again, a proven player) signed a deal calling for less than Whittner received.

Now, how many OGs that were drafted in 06 will sign for more than the Vikes gave Hutch? Did the Jests give Ferguson as much as the 49ers gave Jennings (I truly do not know)?

It appears that Marv just HAD to draft Whittner, even though FA safeties will always be more affordable and available than are blockers, or for that matter DEs. Marv wanted this guy SO much that he turned down what appeared to be generous offers to trade down in order to acquire much needed extra picks. Then of course, 2 of his next 3 picks (after trading away a 1st day pick) were yet more defensive backs. The holdout was insult to injury.

This unorthodox (to say the least) strategy MIGHT work. Time will of course tell, but to imply that Badol and others who are not in love with this seemingly bizzare chain of events are somehow out of touch is wrong imo.

My friend Badol isn't getting any younger, but when we will be in RWS this season cheering the Bills, Badol will not be the one who is 87 years old. He is even younger than 81! 

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I have several reactions to it:

 

1. It gives some evidence that safeties are being more heavily valued in the NFL if Hope is attracting some major scratch. Also, I think this is another indicator of how salaries are going to go up across the board as the salary cap goes up and the distribution of dollars to the players is gonna go up under the CBA, In this light ecalating payments to the rookie safeties is consistent with reality.

 

2. On the specific point of we could have got a vet starter instead of a highly regarded rookie potential starter for less than Whitner, this is certainly possible but the point is specific enough that the answer should be found in looking at specific players who folks think should have been bought instead of Whitner.

 

It actually likely would not have been Hope as he plays FS rather than SS so we would have needed to shift him if we got him. This is not impossible as though we do not know for sure until we see the Tampa 2 we use, it would seen the two safety positions should be relatively the same in use. The question is actually how one thinks that Hope would do shifting from the Pitts LeBeau run zone blitz to the Fewell Tampa 2.

 

He was the second best safety on the Pitts squad last year with Polamolu. His game was actually adjusting his play to fill the gaps for Polamalu who ranged all over the place. The Bills actually appear to be looking for their version of a Polamalu rather than their version of a Chris Hope so I doubt this player fits the needs or our design. Here is likely a question of how good the Bills braintrust thinks Whitner will be. If he actually can become our equivalent of Polamalu I think he will be worth the cost.

 

However, on the face of it I think the money Hope commanded is an indicator more of how valuable we expect Whtiner to be and actually justifies paying a big buck for him rather than saying we paid too much. If he is another Polamalu or Williams he is worth it, if he is another Coy Wire he is not.

 

The other olayer that has been sited as a specific alternative to Whitner would have been to keep Milloy. This would be the comparison to make. Milloy was due a little under $4 million this year in cap hit, The Wgutber deal as describe din Bills Daily is huge with a signing bonus which alone would be $2,6 million, I do not know how the remaining huge base salary amount will be spread out, but on the face of it, i think that Whitner will be a better deal for an SS (assuming DW starts) than Milloy as I doubt his base salary will make his 2006 cap hiy higher than Milloy's hit.

 

On top of this, I think Milloy is so well into the backside of his career and is far more of a hitter approrpriate to a zone blitz than a cover guy for the Tampa 2 that I have few doubts that DW is not only gonna be a cheaper starting SS than Milloy but a better one as well.

 

3. The third observation i would make is that the DW drafting makes far more sense than any other alternative move given what I think the Bills goals are. Again, I understand the arguments of others that it is a better strategy to build in the trenches and the strategy of using the draft to rebuild the OL over the 2 or so drafts this would take given the failure of TD draftees Jennings and MW to be the answer for us.

 

However, i think the team goals are to win as much as we can now and the draft team building strategy even if one feels this is the best way to buiild a team is simply not workable on the Golden Boy business time schedule.

 

Like it or not, i think the team had to create a hole at safety brcause Milloy simply was not a keeper at his cost. In fact many vocal advocates wanted to create two holes there by also ditching Vincent. Once you do this, the qustion is how do you replace Milloy. Choosing Whitner to do this (or Huff) seems to me to be a better strategy than trying to acquire Hope, who depending on how his contract is allocated may be more expensive a cap hit than Whitner.

 

The Bills were forced to draft Whitner at 8 as soon as Oak took Hiff at 7 because trading down simply offered to big a risk that Det. might take Whitner at 9 or that the Fins might jump above them to take Whitner if Det took Sims anyway or might have jumped above us and left us with Bullock who is doubtful to start immediately at SS.

 

I have yet to here anyone suggest an alternate strategy for taking Whitner at 8 that makes sense if your goal is that I think the Golden Boys want to win now if they can and put butts in the seats now on that possibility. If they went into the season with Bowen at SS, I think the chances of them winning now though small now are really non-existent with a back-up Bowen or later round choice at SS and without that possibility it is really difficult to put butts in the seats selling even an illusion.

[Dibs]

5 years $29 mil???

That would have to be incorrect.

Huff was 5 years $22.5 mil so there is no way Whitner gets $29 mil.

He will be getting around $4 mil a year not $5 mil. This will put him under all of those vets that are getting around $5+ mil(Williams, Hope, Reed)

This isn't to say I think an unproven rookie is worth this level of money....I don't think they are.

I do think it's the same for all positions for rookies chosen in the top 10.

Mario Williams...$10 mil per year.

Bush........$10 mil per year.

Young.......$10 mil per year.

D'Brick......$5.5 mil per year.

Hawk.......$6+ mil per year.

VD...........$5 mil per year.

Huff..........$4.5 mil per year.

Whitner....$4+(?) mil per year.

#11 Cutler....$8 mil per year.

 

Perspective....Hawk gets $6 mil per year.....TKO(one of the best in the league) is getting $6.4 mil(including bonus)

How is Safety any worse than the DE, QB, RB, TE, LB etc in regards to they get way too much money as unproven rookies?

[eball]

Agreed, but these types of opinions are shunned upon here.

 

737018[/snapback]

Really? It seems that's just about all I read. To the contrary, it is the optimistic fan who is constantly ridiculed for wearing blinders.

[Mickey]

Some Contract Details: The deal signed by Donte Whitner is the second largest rookie contract in team history behind Mike Williams's deal. It is for five years, instead of the six allowed by the collective barganing agreement. He is expected to earn around $29 Million with more than $13 Million of that guaranteed. He will get 15 percent more than last year's no. 8 pick and $12 Million more than the no. 9 pick in this year's draft.

736961[/snapback]

The guaranteed money is what matters and 13.5 or so would be 1/2 way between what Huff and Ngata were paid which is about right.

[Mickey]

I have several reactions to it:

 

1. It gives some evidence that safeties are being more heavily valued in the NFL if Hope is attracting some major scratch.  Also, I think this is another indicator of how salaries are going to go up across the board as the salary cap goes up and the distribution of dollars to the players is gonna go up under the CBA, In this light ecalating payments to the rookie safeties is consistent with reality.

 

2.  On the specific point of we could have got a vet starter instead of a highly regarded rookie potential starter for less than Whitner, this is certainly possible but the point is specific enough that the answer should be found in looking at specific players who folks think should have been bought instead of Whitner.

 

It actually likely would not have been Hope as he plays FS rather than SS so we would have needed to shift him if we got him. This is not impossible as though we do not know for sure until we see the Tampa 2 we use, it would seen the two safety positions should be relatively the same in use.  The question is actually how one thinks that Hope would do shifting from the Pitts LeBeau run zone blitz to the Fewell Tampa 2.

 

He was the second best safety on the Pitts squad last year with Polamolu.  His game was actually adjusting his play to fill the gaps for Polamalu who ranged all over the place.  The Bills actually appear to be looking for their version of a Polamalu rather than their version of a Chris Hope so I doubt this player fits the needs or our design.  Here is likely a question of how good the Bills braintrust thinks Whitner will be.  If he actually can become our equivalent of Polamalu I think he will be worth the cost.

 

However, on the face of it I think the money Hope commanded is an indicator more of how valuable we expect Whtiner to be and actually justifies paying a big buck for him rather than saying we paid too much.  If he is another Polamalu or Williams he is worth it, if he is another Coy Wire he is not.

 

The other olayer that has been sited as a specific alternative to Whitner would have been to keep Milloy.  This would be the comparison to make. Milloy was due a little under $4 million this year in cap hit,  The Wgutber deal as describe din Bills Daily is huge with a signing bonus which alone would be $2,6 million,  I do not know how the remaining huge base salary amount will be spread out, but on the face of it, i think that Whitner will be a better deal for an SS (assuming DW starts) than Milloy as I doubt his base salary will make his 2006 cap hiy higher than Milloy's hit.

 

On top of this, I think Milloy is so well into the backside of his career and is far more of a hitter approrpriate to a zone blitz than a cover guy for the Tampa 2 that I have few doubts that DW is not only gonna be a cheaper starting SS than Milloy but a better one as well.

 

3. The third observation i would make is that the DW drafting makes far more sense than any other alternative move given what I think the Bills goals are.  Again, I understand the arguments of others that it is a better strategy to build in the trenches and the strategy of using the draft to rebuild the OL over the 2 or so drafts this would take given the failure of TD draftees Jennings and MW to be the answer for us.

 

However, i think the team goals are to win as much as we can now and the draft team building strategy even if one feels this is the best way to buiild a team is simply not workable on the Golden Boy business time schedule.

 

Like it or not, i think the team had to create a hole at safety brcause Milloy simply was not a keeper at his cost.  In fact many vocal advocates wanted to create two holes there by also ditching Vincent.  Once you do this, the qustion is how do you replace Milloy.  Choosing Whitner to do this (or Huff) seems to me to be a better strategy than trying to acquire Hope, who depending on how his contract is allocated may be more expensive a cap hit than Whitner.

 

The Bills were forced to draft Whitner at 8 as soon as Oak took Hiff at 7 because trading down simply offered to big a risk that Det. might take Whitner at 9 or that the Fins might jump above them to take Whitner if Det took Sims anyway or might have jumped above us and left us with Bullock who is doubtful to start immediately at SS.

 

I have yet to here anyone suggest an alternate strategy for taking Whitner at 8 that makes sense if your goal is that I think the Golden Boys want to win now if they can and put butts in the seats now on that possibility.  If they went into the season with Bowen at SS, I think the chances of them winning now though small now are really non-existent with a back-up Bowen or later round choice at SS and without that possibility it is really difficult to put butts in the seats selling even an illusion.

737090[/snapback]

In the draft board in their minds, we could have traded down and out of the first and second rounds and loaded up with 15 picks in the third & fourth rounds while McCargo and Whitner would still have been there for us in the seventh.

[Mickey]

Fair enough. How do you feel about this article? Hope, a proven NFL talent, signed for less than Whittner.

This in itself is admittedly not unusual in the NFL. The thing is, it does appear that despite what you say about the recent trend (which I do not dispute) of drafting safties earlier, Hope (again, a proven player) signed a deal calling for less than Whittner received.

Now, how many OGs that were drafted in 06 will sign for more than the Vikes gave Hutch? Did the Jests give Ferguson as much as the 49ers gave Jennings (I truly do not know)?

It appears that Marv just HAD to draft Whittner, even though FA safeties will always be more affordable and available than are blockers, or for that matter DEs. Marv wanted this guy SO much that he turned down what appeared to be generous offers to trade down in order to acquire much needed extra picks. Then of course, 2 of his next 3 picks (after trading away a 1st day pick) were yet more defensive backs. The holdout was insult to injury.

This unorthodox (to say the least) strategy MIGHT work. Time will of course tell, but to imply that Badol and others who are not in love with this seemingly bizzare chain of events are somehow out of touch is wrong imo.

My friend Badol isn't getting any younger, but when we will be in RWS this season cheering the Bills, Badol will not be the one who is 87 years old. He is even younger than 81! 

737085[/snapback]

You may be right Bill, only time will tell. I just think that at the end of the day, targeting SS as the top need was reasonable given the new defense and the roster (Wire and Bowen). One could argue that DT or a G was more pressing, sure, but you have to admit that SS was a reasonable priority. Well, we ended up with the best SS on the board at the time we picked him, what is so bad about that? Same with DT, I think that was a high priority and the guy we took was the best on the board when we took him. As for both McCargo and Whitner, there was a huge drop off after them at both positions.

 

You know how I feel about the OL but unfortunately, the defense collapsed unexpectedly last year bumping the secondary up the priority ladder.

 

One thing few have mentioned is that throughout his career, Marv has always thought that you can never have too many DB's. Look at the Levy era drafts and you will see time and again that Marv was always taking DB's pretty high in the draft. In his first draft he took two in the second round, Odomes and Roland Mitchell. In his third and fourth draft he used his first selections on DB's (James Williams and Henry Jones). In '93 and '94 he used both first round picks on Thomas Smith and Jeff Burris. Given his history, Marv obviously believes that one of the most crucial factors in building a winner is a solid secondary. This year's draft certainly reflects that I would say.

[Nanker]

In the draft board in their minds, we could have traded down and out of the first and second rounds and loaded up with 15 picks in the third & fourth rounds while McCargo and Whitner would still have been there for us in the seventh. 

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Right. And we'd spend the same $ on a dozen oatmeal players who would be on the PS/NFLE/or Special Teams for the next three years and Coy Wire would be the starting SS.

[Ray]

Well welcome to the NFL--like it or not that is how it is structured. Next year's 8th pick will get more than Whitner and be making more than a lot of Pro Bowl veterans. Is it fair? No--but that is how it is structured. Quite honestly I find it surprising that he was the 8th pick and still does not have the largest contract for a rookie in Bills' history. That goes to MW who was the fourth pick in the draft 4 years ago.

[stuckincincy]

You can only judge a rookie by his college performance.

 

IMO, Whitner is a player who has a good talent for anticipating where the action will be. Might not make the stop, but causes the qb to launch the ball differently. Might be there when a rb squirms out of a tackle and he nails him. Might interfere with a chap hoping to put a key block for a ball carrier.

 

If he does those things, I don't care if he doesn't put up big stats. The purpose of a safety is to cut down the big gains, to provide back-up for others, to anticipate. If he gets a pick, sacks a qb, so much the better.

 

He did that well for OSU. And love 'em or hate 'em, OSU floods the NFL with good players.

[Kelly the Dog]

This article says the guaranteed money is at least 13.5 mil and the contract COULD reach 29 million, which obviously means incentives (that cannot be counted at this point). That's kinda what I thought all along. Not sure where they got the figures from but reading the rest of the article makes me believe it's a decent possibility. They seem to be on top of things in Bills camp.

 

http://www.sportsline.com/nfl/teams/report/BUF/9589039

[RJ (not THAT RJ)]

This article says the guaranteed money is at least 13.5 mil and the contract COULD reach 29 million, which obviously means incentives (that cannot be counted at this point). That's kinda what I thought all along. Not sure where they got the figures from but reading the rest of the article makes me believe it's a decent possibility. They seem to be on top of things in Bills camp.

 

http://www.sportsline.com/nfl/teams/report/BUF/9589039

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This has been said elsewhere, but bears repeating. The pumped-up total number amount serves no purpose right now except to make the agent look like a hero, and thus it is most likely that the agent, who has been dealing with his own PR problems, is the source of the numbers for the article. I see nothing to get worked up about in this contract from the Bills' perspective--Whitner signed for what the #8 pick would be slotted to get. That a 22 year-old genetic freak who plays a kids game gets paid millions of dollars, and this before even having to show that he can perform at the pro level, is a larger philosophical problem that really has no place here. If we were serious about our indignation that such kids get this kind of money we would spend our time agitating for higher pay for nurses and teachers rather than debating the NFL draft....

[Bill from NYC]

This article says the guaranteed money is at least 13.5 mil and the contract COULD reach 29 million, which obviously means incentives (that cannot be counted at this point). That's kinda what I thought all along. Not sure where they got the figures from but reading the rest of the article makes me believe it's a decent possibility. They seem to be on top of things in Bills camp.

 

http://www.sportsline.com/nfl/teams/report/BUF/9589039

737222[/snapback]

 

I hope they gave him a deal that was structured in the manner of the Vikes/Winfield contract. As I recall, the Vikes gave him a HUGE 1st year salary.

 

I like it this way because the Bills don't seem to be in dire need (if any at all) of cap room in 06. If they give him the cash in 1st year salary instead of bonus, his cap hit would not be so bad in future seasons, leaving us room to sign more players. Also, it would make him easier to cut down the road IF he does not play up to expectations.

 

 

Are you out there Clump?

[Kelly the Dog]

This has been said elsewhere, but bears repeating. The pumped-up total number amount serves no purpose right now except to make the agent look like a hero, and thus it is most likely that the agent, who has been dealing with his own PR problems, is the source of the numbers for the article.

737225[/snapback]

Well, yes and no. This report is different in two small but significant ways. First it gives a specific guaranteed money number at 13.5 mil. The earlier Plain Dealer report didn't. Second, it gives the 29 million a "could" in front of it, which the earlier report didn't. That leads me to believe the agent gave the Plain Dealer the number of 29 mil but of course didn't say that the incentives were included in it. To me, whoever put this article together, got some information from a different source than the PD one.

[Ramius]

Well, yes and no. This report is different in two small but significant ways. First it gives a specific guaranteed money number at 13.5 mil. The earlier Plain Dealer report didn't. Second, it gives the 29 million a "could" in front of it, which the earlier report didn't. That leads me to believe the agent gave the Plain Dealer the number of 29 mil but of course didn't say that the incentives were included in it. To me, whoever put this article together, got some information from a different source than the PD one.

737237[/snapback]

 

I'm going to hazard a guess that maybe the Bills got an option on a 6th year of the deal to bump it up to a total potential value of 29 mil over the 6 years.

[John from Riverside]

I dont care how much it is....it isnt my money....

 

At least he is in camp.

[H2o]

I dont care how much it is....it isnt my money....

 

At least he is in camp.

737288[/snapback]

 

Definitely!!! It's about time they stopped trying to play the tightwad and dispensed a little of the money. I'm glad he's in camp too. Word is that he's a real "film rat" and has been watching hourss of tape already to catch up on what he's missed

[krazykat]

unfortunately i dont think he is that type of safety, he is not in the Rodney Harrison or Troy Polo mold

737013[/snapback]

If that's true then he wasn't worth either an 8th or anything close to that kind of contract. He needs to perform like a top-5 SS within three seasons to justify that.

[MadBuffaloDisease]

It's the nature of the beast. Vernon Davis is the NFL's highest-paid TE EVER before he even suits up. And not surprisingly, the idiot owners who drew-up the new CBA didn't even address this situation.

[Mickey]

Well, yes and no. This report is different in two small but significant ways. First it gives a specific guaranteed money number at 13.5 mil. The earlier Plain Dealer report didn't. Second, it gives the 29 million a "could" in front of it, which the earlier report didn't. That leads me to believe the agent gave the Plain Dealer the number of 29 mil but of course didn't say that the incentives were included in it. To me, whoever put this article together, got some information from a different source than the PD one.

737237[/snapback]

I think Simms got 12.1 M and Huff 15 M in guaranteed money putting the 1/2 way mark at 13.55. So it makes sense. When they say "guaranteed", doesn't that usually refer to the signing bonus which they get right away? That 13.55 would be spread out for 5 years for a cap hit of 2.71 per year at a minimum. Incentive money, roster bonuses, future yearly salary, etc. would all be added as paid.

 

There is nothing really noteworthy here is there? Maybe to those who think we took him too high or that a safety shouldn't be taken that high. For the 8th pick in the draft, seems like we didn't get a bargain nor did we get shafted. I wonder what the hold up was? Seems like as soon as Sims signed, we should have been able to get a deal at 13.55 immediately.

 

Oh well, he is in camp now and from the clips at the team site, this guy is ripped for a safety. Looks more like a linebacker. If he is really as fast as billed, we got a freak back there.

[H2o]

QUOTE(Max997 @ Aug 6 2006, 09:09 PM)

unfortunately i dont think he is that type of safety, he is not in the Rodney Harrison or Troy Polo mold

 

 

I beg to differ, I think that he is along the mold of the Troy Polomalu type. Only difference is that he seemed to fly all over the field in a controlled manner when at OSU. It'll take a couple of years for him to fully emerge, but he seems to be that type of player.