Do you believe Marv?

[Dibs]

.....If he is totally relying on Tom Modrak and John Guy to determine monetary worth of the players.....

736573[/snapback]

What he has done does not imply that at all. Why can't he, with his team, determine how much each player is worth & then let his delegated man(Overdorf) who is the expert at negotiating deals, make the deals.

Once the parameters are set up, surely he only needs to get involved with the details if something falls outside of said parameters.

A GM like TD might have stuck his nose into every aspect, second guessing the experts. Do people really want that from Marv?

[Kelly the Dog]

What he has done does not imply that at all.  Why can't he, with his team, determine how much each player is worth & then let his delegated man(Overdorf) who is the expert at negotiating deals, make the deals.

Once the parameters are set up, surely he only needs to get involved with the details if something falls outside of said parameters.

A GM like TD might have stuck his nose into every aspect, second guessing the experts.  Do people really want that from Marv?

736590[/snapback]

No. That's exactly the way it should be. That's the point of the thread. But if he sets the parameters, he pretty much knows how much the guy signed for and shouldn't be lying to the press or fans that he doesn't. If he doesn't know how much, he is out of touch.

[Pyrite Gal]

K F&B I usually find your take on things pretty on target, but I do disagree on this point. If I think it is a good thing to do for the team, I certainly want the GM, HC or whoever to lie about facts involving the team. This means even lying to me and the fans about obvious issues like our gameplan and approach to specific games or situations because I would rather I be fooled or even bamboozled rather than give any information which might help other teams.

 

This issue is a little different because it is not opponent or even game specific, but my sense is that Marv is communicating to those who can understand it and setting up to rake an approach that all this contract stuff though obviously our total focus regarding Whitner prior to signing is now simply water under the bridge and the details of the contract dispute are to be forgotten because now Whitner is a Bill and that is that.

 

I have no problem with him obviously lying flat out about this because the Bills do not release contract details anyway and I am happy to wait until Clumping Platelets provides us with ball park details.

 

For now I am happy to have marv lie about this and move beyond it and concentrate on football, we'll get the details and stew over the salary cap implications soon enough.

[Kelly the Dog]

K F&B I usually find your take on things pretty on target, but I do disagree on this point.  If I think it is a good thing to do for the team, I certainly want the GM, HC or whoever to lie about facts involving the team.  This means even lying to me and the fans about obvious issues like our gameplan and approach to specific games or situations because I would rather I be fooled or even bamboozled rather than give any information which might help other teams.

 

This issue is a little different because it is not opponent or even game specific, but my sense is that Marv is communicating to those who can understand it and setting up to rake an approach that all this contract stuff though obviously our total focus regarding Whitner prior to signing is now simply water under the bridge and the details of the contract dispute are to be forgotten because now Whitner is a Bill and that is that.

 

I have no problem with him obviously lying flat out about this because the Bills do not release contract details anyway and I am happy to wait until Clumping Platelets provides us with ball park details.

 

For now I am happy to have marv lie about this and move beyond it and concentrate on football, we'll get the details and stew over the salary cap implications soon enough.

736593[/snapback]

Again, so why does he need to say what he did? He could have and should have said you guys know we don't disclose numbers. But he is trying to create this idea that he's not involved and I just think it's poor politicking, because it starts threads and discussions like these.

 

So Marv, I know you and your minions read this drivel. And I know you once said if you listen to the fans you'll be sitting by them. But wisen up!

[Dibs]

No. That's exactly the way it should be. That's the point of the thread. But if he sets the parameters, he pretty much knows how much the guy signed for and shouldn't be lying to the press or fans that he doesn't. If he doesn't know how much, he is out of touch.

736592[/snapback]

I fell you aren't being overly fair or balanced on this one.

If the parameters are set, there still would be variables for the deals negotiation. There might be say...$500,000 variable(plus they still want to get the player for as little as possible).

Marv might have known they were within say....$350,000 of each other & within $600,000 of signing bonus. When he gets word that the deal is done, why does he care about the specifics unless they are outside of his predetermined parameters?

His numbers grunts will crunch the new figures for him & he will end up with the new cap figures & projections when that is done.

Since he knew the ball park & he knew we still have loads of money free under the cap, there would be no pressing need to know the minutiae of the deal....apart from personal curiosity.

[generaLee83]

In his press conference today, the next afternoon after Whitner agreed to terms, flew to Buffalo and signed his contract, Marv said he didn't know how much Donte signed for. It's possible, but I find it very hard to believe. I suppose he could be technically honest, like he could have asked Overdorf did we get him for what we wanted, or did he sign for what we spoke about last night, and Overdorf said "Yes" or "Just over" or "Approximately". So Marv wouldn't know the exact numbers. But I really find it difficult for Marv not to ask, not to wonder, not to care.

 

Sure he said he wasn't going to concern himself with the salary cap but everyone is signed now. He'd already spoken to Overdorf at least once. He'd spoken to Whitner. He'd surely spoken to other members of the organization throughout the day about how great it was that Donte was in camp. Probably to Ralph. To me, it simply reeks of disingenuousness. And that's the last thing I'd expect from Marv.

 

I could be wrong. Perhaps he really doesn't know and really doesn't care. Or he'll just find out sooner or later. Of course, for my GM, that I find even more troubling.

http://www.buffalobills.com/news/news.jsp?news_id=3935

736520[/snapback]

 

I'm pretty sure it's BB policy to not discuss contract specifics. Although it is odd that he didn't make reference to that policy.

[Kelly the Dog]

I'm pretty sure it's BB policy to not discuss contract specifics.  Although  it is odd that he didn't make reference to that policy.

736601[/snapback]

He did. And then went out of his way to say he didn't know the numbers. In fact, the direct quote is in the post you just replied to.

[generaLee83]

He did. And then went out of his way to say he didn't know the numbers. In fact, the direct quote is in the post you just replied to.

736607[/snapback]

 

gotcha, missed it earlier

[BADOLBILZ]

-- TSW - making mountains out of mole hills since 1996 --

736554[/snapback]

 

Marv has to be lying, because if he isn't putting the dollar value on these players he's bringing in, it's more than a "mole hill" issue, it's right up there with the 1990's Bengals not having a scouting department.

[krazykat]

Yeah, I think so, along with Modrak and John Guy. My take is that Marv is really just a figure-head. No doubt he had a lot to do with hiring Jauron, but other than that admittedly big task, his role is to:

- interface with Ralph

- improve over-all morale (players & office) that was damaged by TD

- instill the sense of what it takes to win in this league.

I think Jauron, Modrak, and Overdorf are much bigger players in the scheme of things than is readily apparent.

736546[/snapback]

Nice post. It's pretty clear at this point that Levy is just a figurehead.

[Nanker]

KTFABD, to me it's like expecting DJ to know Lee Evans' YAC stats at a post game press conference. It's not that important. I sure Overdorf was given guidance by Marv - and Ralphie on what he could and could not spend.

 

I wouldn't let this interfere with my enjoyment of watching The Bills this year.

[Nanker]

Nice post.  It's pretty clear at this point that Levy is just a figurehead.

736679[/snapback]

As opposed to his megalomaniac know-it-all predecessor that was an abject failure, I find that refreshing.

[BillnutinHouston]

What cracked me up about Marv's role in the Whitner negotiations was that he called Whitner two times (at least) to say "gee, you really should get in here", like he was a neutral third party. It's like buying a new car and the owner of the dealership comes in and tells you that, gee, the salesman is giving you a good deal and you really should take it.

 

Of course Whitner says "when Marv talks, you listen" because he has to now that he's signed, but when Whitner hung up the phone with Marv and called his agent, I'm sure they had some good laughs about that.

[Kelly the Dog]

KTFABD, to me it's like expecting DJ to know Lee Evans' YAC stats at a post game press conference. It's not that important. I sure Overdorf was given guidance by Marv - and Ralphie on what he could and could not spend.

 

I wouldn't let this interfere with my enjoyment of watching The Bills this year.

736684[/snapback]

It's not. It's just food for thought. And this is a semantic argument. I was warming up to Marv a little. I like a few of the moves. I kind of like the coordinators. Of course, this all means nothing until we see it on the field over a significant time period. I just was questioning why Marv would do and say such a thing. Of course he knows pretty close to how much he signed for. It's bad policy IMO to imply otherwise. I didn't mean to imply at all that he needs to know the exact numbers within 24 hours. I did mean to imply he knows within a couple hundred thousand dollars what Whitner signed for, and to say in his press conference "I don't know" is disingenuous, which is the one thing we werent expecting from Marv.

[Mike formerly from Florida]

Nice post.  It's pretty clear at this point that Levy is just a figurehead.

736679[/snapback]

 

Marv stated early he doesn't understand all the technicalities of the salary cap and he wasn't getting involved in that aspect. He wasn't getting involved in sales, marketing, etc. The General Manager position is a two-headed monster: Marv and Overdorf. That's why Overdorf was promoted earlier.

 

What you and the earlier poster missed on your list is that Marv is a marvelous talent evaluator. He always had a say in the drafts when Polian and when Butler were here.

[Kelly the Dog]

Marv stated early he doesn't understand all the technicalities of the salary cap and he wasn't getting involved in that aspect. He wasn't getting involved in sales, marketing, etc. The General Manager position is a two-headed monster: Marv and Overdorf. That's why Overdorf was promoted earlier.

 

What you and the earlier poster missed on your list is that Marv is a marvelous talent evaluator. He always had a say in the drafts when Polian and when Butler were here.

736744[/snapback]

That's precisely the problem. I don't see why this is such a hard concept for people to grasp.

 

For example:

Aaron Schobel is a GREAT player on your team at 1-2 million dollars.

Aaron Schobel is a SOLID player on your team at 3-4 million dollars.

Aaron Schobel is a SHAKY player on your team at 5-6 million dollars.

Aaron Schobel is a CANCER on your team at 7-8 million dollars.

 

You HAVE to know what these players are worth to your team, the position he plays, what you are paying other players in that position, etc. Within a relatively small parameter, like within less than a million.

[Lurker]

He did. And then went out of his way to say he didn't know the numbers. In fact, the direct quote is in the post you just replied to.

736607[/snapback]

 

Because the way these complicated, incentive-laden contracts are written, its even probable that Whitner doesn't know what he singed for, let alone Marv.

 

As other posters have said, the parameters and not the "to-the-dollar" figure are what Marv knows, so why belabor the point....

[Chalkie Gerzowski]

Is it Monday?

 

 

AYE Ralphie stop tearing up ECC South in your Taurus!!!!!

[Pyrite Gal]

Nice post.  It's pretty clear at this point that Levy is just a figurehead.

736679[/snapback]

 

Fidurehead smigurehead to use a technical term.

 

My sense is that all of these jobs are critical to dealing with fundanmental failings of the Bills which contributed greatly to our failure to make the playoffs since 2000.

 

Specifically:

 

- interface with Ralph-

 

The buck stop with the owner and I think that one of the basic failings of this team is Ralph simply making decisions or not managing relationships with his employees well which forced him into bad decisions. Examples of this range from him getting fooled by Butler and not reading how bad the situation was which rushed him into hiring a GM as quickly as he could (which led to the decision to hire TD which most folks think was a bad judgment) or him doing what I semantically term meddling with the professionals (though as owner he has the right to make whatever decisions he wants even if they are bad) like his handling and public pronouncements on the QB situation going back to his missassessment of how long Jimbo would play the game leading to his handshake deal.

 

If Marv can interface with Ralph and keep him happy while backing him off of making bad decisions it will help the Bills achieve the playoffs.

 

- improve over-all morale (players & office) that was damaged by TD-

 

Fish rots from the head own and clearly this team had horrendous relationships between folks at the upper levels of the organization. These bad relationships had the team in disarray and was a sign of poor leadership. It was so bad Ralph had to fire TD. I don't see how you would call this relationship good with the firing or claim that this bad relationship had not effect.

 

TD and MM were apparently locked in a dispute over the QB situation with the boss directing one thing and the HC trying to do something different. Most Bills players are trying to put the past in the past but comments are leaking out about how bad this situation was an its effects on getting Ws. My personal sense is that this season was over after the second game when the D in particular could not even pretend that the Bills were putting their best (even though if the best we could do was playing Bledsoe at QB was inadequate) foot forward in trying to win in 2005.

 

TD had decided that 2005 was going to be devoted to being a training season for JP rather than a winning season for the Bills as a top goal and I think the D lost its edge and gave up doing that extra little bit that makes a winner at that point.

 

Some semblance of morale and this team being a TEAM strikes me as central to getting Ws in 2006. Some may prefer that the Bills build toward 2007 )or more likely 2008) by focusing on building a strong base by taking actions like focusing our draft on the OL.

 

I do not think this is where the Golden Boys are because who knows how long life is and because they run a business that must put butts in the seats now.

 

 

- instill the sense of what it takes to win in this league.-

 

Clearly this team has forgotten what it feels like to be a Bills team in the playoffs. In fact outside of folks like Chuck Lester, are there even many coaches much less players who were here even in the last playoff appearance not to mention the glory days of the early 90s. Marv embodies a real connection to that feeling and if he can articulate that feeling so the young players lust after that glory it would be great.

 

Call it being a figurehead if you want, but it is difficult for me to imagine 3 areas which the Bills must improve and set right their activities of the details of actions in personnel assessment or contract negotiation will merely be dust in the wind.

 

You can argue and you may have a good case to make that Modrak is a stinky evaluator, Guy is a stinky manager of scouts, or that Overdorf is a lousy negotiatior (the Whitner events give credence to that claim) but you and others are wrong if you judge these three tasks which are "the only things Marv will do" as being trivial.

 

Actually, I think that Modrak and Guys works attracting folks like TKO or identifying Fletcher and even turning PP into WM and then getting PP back are not bad work. Overdorf in aggreeing to contracts which got TKO to a small market and saw Sam Adams and a few others sign for less than the market rate is in the middle of the NFL pack at worse and actually pretty good.

 

The problem has not generally been with tools with the Bills but with the builder in terms of Ralph's and TD decision making.

 

If Marv somehow produces improvements in the three area's Rico identifies and you agree with he deserves to enter the HOF a second time.

[generaLee83]

What cracked me up about Marv's role in the Whitner negotiations was that he called Whitner two times (at least) to say "gee, you really should get in here", like he was a neutral third party.  It's like buying a new car and the owner of the dealership comes in and tells you that, gee, the salesman is giving you a good deal and you really should take it.

 

Of course Whitner says "when Marv talks, you listen" because he has to now that he's signed, but when Whitner hung up the phone with Marv and called his agent, I'm sure they had some good laughs about that.

736734[/snapback]

 

Very good observation and an excellent analogy.