DONTE WHITNER

[Albany,n.y.]

Brilliant-lets get nothing for having the 8th pick in the whole friggin draft!

Definitely a candidate for worst topic of the year.

[BADOLBILZ]

ok this gets my vote for dumbest post of the year

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And your response reminds me of when everyone was bagging on Ol' Ralph because they assumed he was too senile to understand the new CBA.

 

It's a long standing tradition for bad teams to not get their first round picks signed. The Bills, 6 years removed from the playoffs are what the Bengals, Bucs and Cards used to be. A laughingstock. Their first mistake was drafting an undersized SS #8 overall. That said, you don't make it WORSE by being held up at the negotiating table by kickers, fullbacks or safeties. At a certain point you have to move on. It's not just a draft pick, twelve million guaranteed will buy you a whole lotta PROVEN strong safety in free agency.

[BADOLBILZ]

Brilliant-lets get nothing for having the 8th pick in the whole friggin draft!

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Water under the bridge. Give me that guaranteed money in free agency the next two offseasons and I will deliver an All Pro strong safety in his prime. Net result = same or better. In the meantime build a foundation for success at the positions that aren't readily available off the scrap heap of free agency. Marv, get on the phone, deal Whitner and draft smarter next time.

[Bill from NYC]

Water under the bridge.  Give me that guaranteed money in free agency the next two offseasons and I will deliver an All Pro strong safety in his prime.  Net result = same or better.  In the meantime build a foundation for success at the positions that aren't readily available off the scrap heap of free agency.  Marv, get on the phone, deal Whitner and draft smarter next time.

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Thank you.

I have not yet said a word about this holdout, but here goes....

 

Whitner was an idiotic pick by any stretch of the imagination. It is said that we turned down a trade with Denver which involved swapping 1sts, and gaining a 2nd plus yet another pick. For the sake of this conversation, people should forget the contract dollars for a minute and look at the resources we gave up to draft a safety. A small friggin safety!

Whitner himself was openly surprised at being selected 8th, and now he is holding out while his teammates are blistering at camp in this inclement, oppressive weather. Soon, he will stroll into camp with 13 or so million dollars in his pocket. Yeah, this is great.

 

A case could be made that our draft was bizzare to begin with. We gave away a pick and took 3 defensive backs with our first 4 selections in addition to turning down much needed picks. This on a team that is demonstrably weak up front.

If little Donte doesn't arrive soon, this draft will have crossed the plateau from idiotic to sadly embarrassing.

[Orton's Arm]

Water under the bridge.  Give me that guaranteed money in free agency the next two offseasons and I will deliver an All Pro strong safety in his prime.  Net result = same or better.  In the meantime build a foundation for success at the positions that aren't readily available off the scrap heap of free agency.  Marv, get on the phone, deal Whitner and draft smarter next time.

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Let me start by saying I'm not happy with the Whitner pick. Maybe I don't hate it with the same intensity as Bill from NYC, but by no means do I like it.

 

That said, it's tough to sign free agent players in their primes. There are a lot more teams chasing those kinds of players than there are players like that to be signed. Just because you have enough money to fit an Ed Reed on your roster doesn't mean you'll get an Ed Reed.

 

Suppose you were a top-tier free agent. Would you want to sign with a team that had an 87 year old owner, an 80 year old GM, a losing record for 2005, no QB, no offensive line, and on top of all that, was too cheap to sign its own first round draft pick to a contract? That last part screams to any would-be free agent that the Bills lack either the interest or the ability to fix their losing ways. The players on the roster would begin to doubt Marv's long-term plan. Those interested in winning games would become more difficult to re-sign.

 

I'm not happy with the Whitner pick. I agree with every word of Bill from NYC's post about it. But now that we've made our bed, we have no choice but to lie in it.

[Dibs]

......was drafting an undersized SS.....

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This is simply wrong in the modern NFL.

 

Here is something I prepared(& posted) earlier.

 

Whitner.............5'10.5"

Below are the NFLs top strong safeties & their heights

Bold is last years pro-bowlers.

Asterix is previous recent pro-bowlers.

 

Bob Sanders.....5'8"

Troy Polamalu...5'10"

Mike Brown.......5'10"

*Ed Reed*........5'11"

Chris Hope........5"11"

Tony Parrish......5'11"

*L.Milloy*...........6'0"

*Roy Williams*...6'0"

B.Dawkins........6'0"

Archuleta..........6'0"

*R.Harrison*.....6'1"

D.Darius...........6'1"

*C.Chavous*....6'1"

Sean Taylor......6'2"

M.Boulware.......6'3"

A.Wilson...........6'3"

 

He is not undersized for the modern NFL game.

[Dawgg]

I saw this before but didn't respond. I will respond now. Look at their positions in the draft -- and how much they were paid for their first years.

 

Bob Sanders -- 2nd round 44th overall

Mike Brown -- 2nd round 40th overall

Ed Reed -- 1st round 24th overall

Chris Hope -- 3rd round 93rd overall

Milloy -- 2nd rounder

Polamalu -- mid first rounder

Archuletta - late first rounder

Rodney Harrison - FIFTH rounder

 

Aside from Palomalu and Taylor, this very list that you compiles shows that Pro Bowl caliber safeties are plentiful in the middle rounds of the draft -- all that's required is a good scouting department, something the Bills have lacked for quite some time.

 

 

This is simply wrong in the modern NFL.

 

Here is something I prepared(& posted) earlier.

 

Whitner.............5'10.5"

Below are the NFLs top strong safeties & their heights

Bold is last years pro-bowlers.

Asterix is previous recent pro-bowlers.

 

Bob Sanders.....5'8"

Troy Polamalu...5'10"

Mike Brown.......5'10"

*Ed Reed*........5'11"

Chris Hope........5"11"

Tony Parrish......5'11"

*L.Milloy*...........6'0"

*Roy Williams*...6'0"

B.Dawkins........6'0"

Archuleta..........6'0"

*R.Harrison*.....6'1"

D.Darius...........6'1"

*C.Chavous*....6'1"

Sean Taylor......6'2"

M.Boulware.......6'3"

A.Wilson...........6'3"

 

He is not undersized for the modern NFL game.

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[Dibs]

I saw this before but didn't respond.  I will respond now.  Look at their positions in the draft -- and how much they were paid for their first years. 

 

Bob Sanders -- 2nd round 44th overall

Mike Brown -- 2nd round 40th overall

Ed Reed -- 1st round 24th overall

Chris Hope -- 3rd round 93rd overall

Milloy -- 2nd rounder

Polamalu -- mid first rounder

Archuletta - late first rounder

Rodney Harrison - FIFTH rounder

Roy Williams -- HIGH first rounder

 

Aside from Palomalu and Taylor, this very list that you compiles shows that Pro Bowl caliber safeties are plentiful in the middle rounds of the draft -- all that's required is a good scouting department, something the Bills have lacked for quite some time.

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My putting up this list in this thread was to directly show that Whitner is not undersized....which I believe I have adequately done.

 

(I've taken the liberty of adding Roy Williams into your list above)

 

But since you raise the issue of position.....to argue that all you need is a good scouting department & you'll be able to get your pro bowl SS in later rounds is ridiculous.(Though you get no argument from me that we have had bad scounting for years now) The same argument could easily be made for DTs(I thought since people wanted Bunkley/Ngata, this might make a nice comparison)

Last years pro bowlers...

Glover -- 5th rounder

Rogers -- 2nd rounder

Harris -- mid first rounder

Williams -- 2nd rounder

Seymour -- high first rounder

Hampton -- mid first rounder

Stroud -- mid first rounder

Coleman -- 5th rounder

 

When you add the concept that the Safety position has changed over the last bunch of year requiring better athletes who contribute bigger impacts, the argument that Whitner was a bad pick at #8 because he was a safety does not hold water.

[Dibs]

A small friggin safety! 

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He isn't small.

[Tasker]

I don't know why I'm feeding this troll. Topics like this should be left to die without any answers, and our board will be better for it.

 

But #8 picks don't change the world. It is just important that you get the best football player to contribute a lot to your team over a five year span.

 

I think Dante will be an excellent pick by comparison to the guys who could have been picked at #8 (Bunkley, Ngata, QBs). That doesn't mean getting a trade for better value wouldn't have been cool (I think we could have done it but got scared, but you never know), or that having one of the QBs stay in the top 7 and pushing us Huff instead of Whitner wouldn't have been cool. But that's not what happened.

 

What is important now is that we got a very talented football player and hoepfully our talent evaluations will prove successful, and we will be very happy with this guy.

 

Personally I like our draft, and think it will prove a solid foundation away from the Tom Donohue era.

 

Here are the last 10 #8 picks just for reference. I think Dante can clearly be a good player in comparison to these guys, and be considered a good #8 pick down the road.

 

1996: Carolina Tim Biakabutuka RB Michigan

1997: N.Y. Jets James Farrior ILB Virginia

1998: Dallas Greg Ellis DE North Carolina

1999: Arizona David Boston WR Ohio State

2000: Pittsburgh Plaxico Burress WR Michigan State

2001: Chicago David Terrell WR Michigan

2002: Dallas Roy Williams SS Oklahoma

2003: Carolina Jordan Gross T Utah

2004: Atlanta DeAngelo Hall CB Virginia Tech

2005: Arizona Antrel Rolle CB Miami

[BADOLBILZ]

This is simply wrong in the modern NFL.

 

Here is something I prepared(& posted) earlier.

 

Whitner.............5'10.5"

Below are the NFLs top strong safeties & their heights

Bold is last years pro-bowlers.

Asterix is previous recent pro-bowlers.

 

Bob Sanders.....5'8"

Troy Polamalu...5'10"

Mike Brown.......5'10"

*Ed Reed*........5'11"

Chris Hope........5"11"

Tony Parrish......5'11"

*L.Milloy*...........6'0"

*Roy Williams*...6'0"

B.Dawkins........6'0"

Archuleta..........6'0"

*R.Harrison*.....6'1"

D.Darius...........6'1"

*C.Chavous*....6'1"

Sean Taylor......6'2"

M.Boulware.......6'3"

A.Wilson...........6'3"

 

He is not undersized for the modern NFL game.

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Did you take chance to notice that 13 of 16 on that list are taller than Whitner? I'm sure you can put together a list of top CB's that has a few guys under 5'10" too, but 5'9" is still going to be small for a corner.

[BADOLBILZ]

That said, it's tough to sign free agent players in their primes.  There are a lot more teams chasing those kinds of players than there are players like that to be signed.  Just because you have enough money to fit an Ed Reed on your roster doesn't mean you'll get an Ed Reed.

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Top FA's relocate every year and to all kinds of places and usually money is reason #1. Takeo Spikes and Lawyer Milloy ring a bell?

[Dibs]

Did you take chance to notice that 13 of 16 on that list are taller than Whitner?  I'm sure you can put together a list of top CB's that has a few guys under 5'10" too, but 5'9" is still going to be small for a corner.

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You're not serious are you?

The 3 that are shorter than him were in last years pro bowl

'Ed Reed' & 2 others are within .5 of an inch & 4 are within 1.5 inches.

Of the 10 who are 6'0" or under(within 1.5 inches)...All 4 of last years probowlers & 7 probowlers in total are included.

Of the 6 over 6'0", only 2 have been to pro bowls.

This shows that most of the good young modern styled SSs are not tall.

It certainly implies that the new prototypical height for a SS (for the modern game) is perhaps 5'11".

As time progresses & old greats like Milloy & Harrison retire, I think you will find that the probowl will be made up of 5'11" & 5'10" tall SSs....if not already.

[Ramius]

You're not serious are you? 

The 3 that are shorter than him were in last years pro bowl

'Ed Reed' & 2 others are within .5 of an inch & 4 are within 1.5 inches.

Of the 10 who are 6'0" or under(within 1.5 inches)...All 4 of last years probowlers & 7 probowlers in total are included.

Of the 6 over 6'0", only 2 have been to pro bowls.

This shows that most of the good young modern styled SSs are not tall.

It certainly implies that the new prototypical height for a SS (for the modern game) is perhaps 5'11".

As time progresses & old greats like Milloy & Harrison retire, I think you will find that the probowl will be made up of 5'11" & 5'10" tall SSs....if not already.

736578[/snapback]

 

Shhhhhhhhhhh! Dont bring facts and logic into the arguement! They always ruin a good rant, and these 2 had a good one going here. Its much easier to say whine and cry Draftbad like badol and billinnyc. Waaaaaaaaaahhhhhhh!

[generaLee83]

This is simply wrong in the modern NFL.

 

Here is something I prepared(& posted) earlier.

 

Whitner.............5'10.5"

Below are the NFLs top strong safeties & their heights

Bold is last years pro-bowlers.

Asterix is previous recent pro-bowlers.

 

Bob Sanders.....5'8"

Troy Polamalu...5'10"

Mike Brown.......5'10"

*Ed Reed*........5'11"

Chris Hope........5"11"

Tony Parrish......5'11"

*L.Milloy*...........6'0"

*Roy Williams*...6'0"

B.Dawkins........6'0"

Archuleta..........6'0"

*R.Harrison*.....6'1"

D.Darius...........6'1"

*C.Chavous*....6'1"

Sean Taylor......6'2"

M.Boulware.......6'3"

A.Wilson...........6'3"

 

He is not undersized for the modern NFL game.

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What!!?!?!?!?! Coy doesn't make the list? What Bullsh--!!!!

[BADOLBILZ]

You're not serious are you? 

The 3 that are shorter than him were in last years pro bowl

'Ed Reed' & 2 others are within .5 of an inch & 4 are within 1.5 inches.

Of the 10 who are 6'0" or under(within 1.5 inches)...All 4 of last years probowlers & 7 probowlers in total are included.

Of the 6 over 6'0", only 2 have been to pro bowls.

This shows that most of the good young modern styled SSs are not tall.

It certainly implies that the new prototypical height for a SS (for the modern game) is perhaps 5'11".

As time progresses & old greats like Milloy & Harrison retire, I think you will find that the probowl will be made up of 5'11" & 5'10" tall SSs....if not already.

736578[/snapback]

 

Bottom line, he's undersized by NFL standards, you can carry on all you want, but being small at SS is a disadvantage and one of the reasons he wasn't ranked so highly early in the draft process was that he did tend to get pushed around in the run game because of his lack of size. And again, it comes back to the simple fact that he was drafted way too high. Even a Bob Sanders like performance probably won't justify having used that kind of pick there.

 

As for the future of the pro bowl being made up of 5'10" safeties, I highly doubt that. Beyond your list, the rest of the starting strong safeties in the league are overwhelmingly 6' and up, and most are pretty good, as strong safety is not that difficult of a position to stock.

[BADOLBILZ]

Shhhhhhhhhhh! Dont bring facts and logic into the arguement! They always ruin a good rant, and these 2 had a good one going here. Its much easier to say whine and cry Draftbad like badol and billinnyc. Waaaaaaaaaahhhhhhh!

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Not to bring facts into it, but it's spelled "argument". Thanks for your input though. VERY creative, as always.

[Ramius]

Not to bring facts into it, but it's spelled "argument".  Thanks for your input though.  VERY creative, as always.   

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Ahhh, the old tactic of "my argument is weak and holds no water, so when i get called out and have no defense, i will make fun of grammar to save what little face i have left."

[Rico]

Waaaaaaaaaahhhhhhh!

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[Dibs]

Bottom line, he's undersized by NFL standards, you can carry on all you want, but .....

736653[/snapback]

HUH?

He is within the height range of most of the BEST SSs in the league!!!

Carry on??? Putting forward reasonable counter arguments is carrying on?

 

Interpretation of what you wrote:

"I do not care about the facts indicating the contrary, he is small!!! *stamp foot* *spit dummy* *poke out tongue*

Furthermore, you can keep making arguments I disagree with for as long as you want but my mind is made up & no amount of evidence will get me to even consider that the SS position has evolved since I last looked at it."