Is JP kicking Holcomb's tail?

[Mickey]

If JP had 24 games under his belt, your disappointment with him would have a lot more validity.  As it is, the guy's got what---8 games experience?

 

Kelly started for two seasons in the USFL before he appeared in a Bills uniform.  You admit, even then, Kelly needed more polishing.

 

So what will make you happy?  If JP improves to 55% passing and a 73 QB rating does he stay?  Anything less, he's gone?

733811[/snapback]

Fair enough but one of the reasons he only has 8 games experience is because he played so poorly that he lost his job to Kelly Holcomb. Further, its not like he was only in the league for 8 games. He had a whole year to learn with no pressure behind Bledsoe and then spent the entire off season as the anointed starter, getting all the reps and personal tutelage from old Sam. He went through the entire preseason as the starter as well. Here he is, in his third year and from all accounts, he is not running away with the job. The jury is still out on him but for now, I am disappointed that he hasn't outplayed the pants off of Holcomb in camp.

 

If we are 0-8 half way through and he is playing as bad as last year, should we sign him to a lifetime deal? Why is the notion that at some point this guy has to produce so offensive? I think this is a make or break year for JP. He has to improve or he will be facing a lot stiffer competition in camp next year than Nall and Holcomb.

[keepthefaith]

No final judgment, just taking the pulse.  I hoped JP would run away with it in camp from the git go.  Hasn't happened at least based on just about every camp report posted here.  That is not the end of the world but it isn't a good sign is it?

734103[/snapback]

 

Let's see how he looks after 2 preseason games.....

[Scraps]

He missed most of training camp his rookie year and once the season starts it's not like the backup is getting a lot of reps.  Last year he had an entire training camp and 8 games started.  If you think a guy should come out and shine after one training camp, 8 games started and another 7 practices in training camp I think you're expecting way too much. 

 

Coming out of college Losman was said to be a project type pick, a guy that would take longer than normal to groom.  So we have a guy that many thought would take longer than normal and expect him to show results in a shorter than average period.  Just great. 

734093[/snapback]

 

I'm all for naming JP the starter and having him start whenever he is healthy. Holcomb has shown that he simply does not possess the physical skills necessary to take this team anywhere. That said, I'd be more optimistic if his problems were trying to force plays or holding onto the ball too long or decision making problems. The problems I recall from last year was he seemed terribly innaccurate. That is the same description I'm hearing this year. I don't think his accuracy should suffer so much because of a broken leg in his rookie year or because he hasn't played terribly many games.

 

I'm all for sinking with the guy this year if thats what it takes to learn whether or not he is the one but my optimism is waning.

[AJ1]

Fair enough but one of the reasons he only has 8 games experience is because he played so poorly that he lost his job to Kelly Holcomb.  Further, its not like he was only in the league for 8 games.  He had a whole year to learn with no pressure behind Bledsoe and then spent the entire off season as the anointed starter, getting all the reps and personal tutelage from old Sam.  He went through the entire preseason as the starter as well.  Here he is, in his third year and from all accounts, he is not running away with the job.  The jury is still out on him but for now, I am disappointed that he hasn't outplayed the pants off of Holcomb in camp.

 

If we are 0-8 half way through and he is playing as bad as last year, should we sign him to a lifetime deal?  Why is the notion that at some point this guy has to produce so offensive?  I think this is a make or break year for JP.  He has to improve or he will be facing a lot stiffer competition in camp next year than Nall and Holcomb.

734114[/snapback]

 

Just as an aside, tell me who was the last pup QB the Bills held on to long enough to develop into anything? Jim Kelly does count because he was experienced when he finally showed up as a Bill. No one, may be the answer. It's next to no one for sure. Kinda new territory for all of us Bills fans, wouldn't you say? Wouldn't you say that developing a QB takes a characteristic called patience. A few of us have it...more than the last gaggle of coaches did. Believe me, there are plenty of examples of teams deep-sixing a QB only to be haunted by that decision later on.

 

I don't want the Bills to make that mistake with Losman.

[IDBillzFan]

Fair enough but one of the reasons he only has 8 games experience is because he played so poorly that he lost his job to Kelly Holcomb.

734114[/snapback]

Bullschitt. The ONLY reason he has 8 starts is because our pussified coaching staff and GM feared if we had another losing season they'd be out on the streets. So they panicked at the expense of our young quarterback and turned our team into a managerial embarrassment of ridiculous proportions.

 

If they just worked him out for all games last year, regardless of the record, we'd be a whole helluva smarter than we are today.

 

They lost a year because they panicked. Plain and simple. Put it on Losman all you want, but it's just another pussified excuse because 'we need a winner now.'

 

!@#$ing bullshitt.

[AJ1]

Bullschitt. The ONLY reason he has 8 starts is because our pussified coaching staff and GM feared if we had another losing season they'd be out on the streets. So they panicked at the expense of our young quarterback and turned our team into a managerial embarrassment of ridiculous proportions.

 

If they just worked him out for all games last year, regardless of the record, we'd be a whole helluva smarter than we are today.

 

They lost a year because they panicked. Plain and simple. Put it on Losman all you want, but it's just another pussified excuse because 'we need a winner now.'

 

!@#$ing bullshitt.

734170[/snapback]

 

We are definitely on the same wavelength on this topic.

[Oneonta Buffalo Fan]

GO JP!

[ganesh]

Didn't the Giants win 11 games with Eli at the hlem last year?  He only started 7 games his first year so, applying the JP standard, that year doesn't count. 

Peyton had a 72 rating, 57% completion rate and 26 touchdowns playing for, at the time, the worst team in the NFL.  Sadly, all those rookie year numbers beat JP's second year numbers.  Nowhere to go but up I say.

734095[/snapback]

 

The giants won last year with a super defense and a very good running game.

Tiki Barber kept them in every single game.....The giants won despite

Eli Mannings struggles...Check his stats....

 

2004 2005

His Completion %: 48.2 52.8

TD 6 9

Int 24 17

 

Bottom line is this guy was not benched but allowed to play through the

growing pains....and the VETERAN defensive players where behind him

not behind some veteran journeyman QB......

[TigerJ]

I think the Bills are going to need a preseason game or two to provide the opportunity for these two guys to distinguish themselves. Camp is too controlled. I think too that it is going to be more of a case of one QB taking himself out of the competition than one QB all of a sudden appearing to be superman. If JP Losman can in a game look reasonably poised and consistent, and Holcomb continues to check down on nearly every attempt, throwing a myriad of 3 yard dump offs, the Bills almost have to give the job to Losman.

[Mickey]

Bullschitt. The ONLY reason he has 8 starts is because our pussified coaching staff and GM feared if we had another losing season they'd be out on the streets. So they panicked at the expense of our young quarterback and turned our team into a managerial embarrassment of ridiculous proportions.

 

If they just worked him out for all games last year, regardless of the record, we'd be a whole helluva smarter than we are today.

 

They lost a year because they panicked. Plain and simple. Put it on Losman all you want, but it's just another pussified excuse because 'we need a winner now.'

 

!@#$ing bullshitt.

734170[/snapback]

Looking at JP's performance would seem to justify their fears of a losing season. Further, subsequent events revealed that their worries that a losing season would cost them their jobs was not "pussified" as much as it was realistic. They did get canned. And Losman didn't lose a whole year, he got all the reps in the OTAs, camp and started for 8 games. If he didn't manage to learn anything in 8 starts then I am even more worried for his future.

 

I'm all for patience and enduring growing pains however, I am not willing to change the primary goal of this team from winning games to training quarterbacks.

[Mickey]

Just as an aside, tell me who was the last pup QB the Bills held on to long enough to develop into anything?  Jim Kelly does count because he was experienced when he finally showed up as a Bill.  No one, may be the answer.  It's next to no one for sure.  Kinda new territory for all of us Bills fans, wouldn't you say?  Wouldn't you say that developing a QB takes a characteristic called patience.    A few of us have it...more than the last gaggle of coaches did.  Believe me, there are plenty of examples of teams deep-sixing a QB only to be haunted by that decision later on.

 

I don't want the Bills to make that mistake with Losman.

734156[/snapback]

Patience is fine, of course there will be learning pains but there comes a point where a guy has to produce. At some point, "potential" has to become "performance". The first sign of that this year for JP would be him outplaying Holcomb in camp. So far, neither seems to be distinguishing himself if the camp reports are to be believed. I don't think that is a good sign. I haven't pronounced him to be a failure or advocated starting Holcomb. Just pointing out that at this point, JP hasn't shown much of anything on the field. The only real postives I have heard are amorphous comments like "he looks confident".

 

Sure there have been QB's that were given up on too early. There are also twice as many guys who teams stuck with for way too long hoping that they would somehow finally reach their "potential". For all we know at this point, JP could end up in the hall of fame or selling insurance by 2008. We need to play him to find out which and that is fine...for now but not forever.

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

Bullschitt. The ONLY reason he has 8 starts is because our pussified coaching staff and GM feared if we had another losing season they'd be out on the streets. So they panicked at the expense of our young quarterback and turned our team into a managerial embarrassment of ridiculous proportions.

 

If they just worked him out for all games last year, regardless of the record, we'd be a whole helluva smarter than we are today.

 

They lost a year because they panicked. Plain and simple. Put it on Losman all you want, but it's just another pussified excuse because 'we need a winner now.'

 

!@#$ing bullshitt.

734170[/snapback]

 

I wish there was an applause smilie.

[keepthefaith]

"Bullschitt"

734181[/snapback]

 

I think that's German. Must be an NFL Europe fan.

[richNjoisy]

Looking at JP's performance would seem to justify their fears of a losing season.  Further, subsequent events revealed that their worries that a losing season would cost them their jobs was not "pussified" as much as it was realistic.  They did get canned.  And Losman didn't lose a whole year, he got all the reps in the OTAs, camp and started for 8 games.  If he didn't manage to learn anything in 8 starts then I am even more worried for his future.

 

I'm all for patience and enduring growing pains however, I am not willing to change the primary goal of this team from winning games to training quarterbacks.

734269[/snapback]

 

 

Hi Mickey,

 

I don't think anyone here cares more about any one player versus having the Bills win. I do think, however, that measuring JP's play last season is too "gray" too make any determination at this point. I doubt you would disagree that he's:

 

1.) young

2.) Played behind a terrible offensive line

 

Not many young QB's could perform well under these circumstances. This DOES NOT prove JP is any good but for you to feel so certain about his lack of ability is not reasonable. Look around the league and you will see a number of good to very good to even great current QB's who played poorly their first 2 years. I do not want he kid to be handed the job but I do want him to get a fair shot at becoming a quality QB. This means time on the field with time to throw.

 

I remember when Tood Collins took over after Jimbo's departure. He inherited a decent team with a very good offensive line and some outstanding receivers. The Bills lost....regularly. In one Monday Night game, Todd, having all the time in the world to throw, missed a wide open receiver in the middle of the field - TWICE and the Bills lost by ~ 7 points. Todd still started the rest of the season. In retospect, he sucked but he was given the chance to succeed.

 

One final point - did you see an improvement in JP's play when he replaced an injured Holcomb in the KC game? Was it JP's fault the Bills lost to the Panthers later on? if you have a tape of these games - take a look at them, focusing on JP's play. He DID look better than his first four games. And this was against a very good team (Panthers) and a decent team (Kansas City - by the way, the Bils were losing when JP came in off the bench). You aren't suggesting JP played poorly in the second Miami game are you?

 

Winning is the most important goal but JP deserves a chance to succeed since HIS success translates to BILLS WINS not only now but way into the future.

 

Let's see how he plays in preseason and early on during the regular season.

 

Go Bills!

 

-RichNJoisy

[Realist]

Patience is fine, of course there will be learning pains but there comes a point where a guy has to produce.  At some point, "potential" has to become "performance".  The first sign of that this year for JP would be him outplaying Holcomb in camp.  So far, neither seems to be distinguishing himself if the camp reports are to be believed.  I don't think that is a good sign.  I haven't pronounced him to be a failure or advocated starting Holcomb.  Just pointing out that at this point, JP hasn't shown much of anything on the field.  The only real postives I have heard are amorphous comments like "he looks confident". 

 

Sure there have been QB's that were given up on too early.  There are also twice as many guys who teams stuck with for way too long hoping that they would somehow finally reach their "potential".  For all we know at this point, JP could end up in the hall of fame or selling insurance by 2008.  We need to play him to find out which and that is fine...for now but not forever.

734271[/snapback]

Holcomb's Arm, is that you?

 

You are worried that JP hasn't seperated himself from Holcomb thus far in training camp, but aren't you the slightest worried that Holcomb, the 10-12 year vet, has not come close to outshining a still young JP Losman? Holcomb has been in this league for quite awhile now, he is not going to all of a sudden get better than what we are currently seeing. We know what we have in Holcomb, and its not really that good to count on as a starter. At least with JP there is a possible upside, if this year is dedicated to him being the starter. If Losman sucks, then I'm all for dumping him after the season finishes, but I want to see him go through the entire year.

[IDBillzFan]

Patience is fine, of course there will be learning pains but there comes a point where a guy has to produce.  At some point, "potential" has to become "performance".  The first sign of that this year for JP would be him outplaying Holcomb in camp.  So far, neither seems to be distinguishing himself if the camp reports are to be believed.  I don't think that is a good sign.  I haven't pronounced him to be a failure or advocated starting Holcomb.  Just pointing out that at this point, JP hasn't shown much of anything on the field.  The only real postives I have heard are amorphous comments like "he looks confident". 

 

Sure there have been QB's that were given up on too early.  There are also twice as many guys who teams stuck with for way too long hoping that they would somehow finally reach their "potential".  For all we know at this point, JP could end up in the hall of fame or selling insurance by 2008.  We need to play him to find out which and that is fine...for now but not forever.

734271[/snapback]

Not sure what to say except that I'm sure the state of Texas is glad you weren't in charge of determining Troy Aikman's fate.

[RJ (not THAT RJ)]

Not sure what to say except that I'm sure the state of Texas is glad you weren't in charge of determining Troy Aikman's fate.

734412[/snapback]

 

 

Well put... I keep waiting to see if Mickey is going to ask us about JP's 40 time... He has made his point, such as it is, so many times in so many threads. This is what we call TSW OCD....

[IDBillzFan]

Well put... I keep waiting to see if Mickey is going to ask us about JP's 40 time... He has made his point, such as it is, so many times in so many threads. This is what we call TSW OCD.... 

734421[/snapback]

I can appreciate Mickey's impartial impatience, but the reality is even a guy like me with limited knowledge of Xs and Os can factor in the truth that the way JP was treated last year did absolutely NOTHING to foster his confidence.

 

Give JP a year. A full year. If Mickey's right, I'll be the first to admit it. But to suggest he's done after 8 starts is just crazy. The moment they pulled JP and put in Holcomb, I was officially out of the TD/MM camp.

[RJ (not THAT RJ)]

I can appreciate Mickey's impartial impatience, but the reality is even a guy like me with limited knowledge of Xs and Os can factor in the truth that the way JP was treated last year did absolutely NOTHING to foster his confidence.

 

Give JP a year. A full year. If Mickey's right, I'll be the first to admit it. But to suggest he's done after 8 starts is just crazy. The moment they pulled JP and put in Holcomb, I was officially out of the TD/MM camp.

734430[/snapback]

 

 

I am with you, Mock. On another thread, a poster noted that 2003 and 2005 were their worst years as Bills fans, because of the high expectations that were dashed, and I can see that point. 2005 was especially upsetting because of how quickly MM and TD pulled the plug on JP. I mean, MM yanked him in WEEK 2, for God's sake, however briefly, on a day where even he admitted later that the problem went beyond JP. If he had so little faith in JP, MM should have said something to TD before he cut Drew; the fact that he did not, and then that he still did not have the cojones to risk staying in Buffalo to prove himself after TD left, shows me that MM really does not have the confidence or character to be a strong head coach. We have to be better off with Jauron, and need to give JP as much of this year as possible to show once and for all if he has it.

[tennesseeboy]

I can appreciate Mickey's impartial impatience, but the reality is even a guy like me with limited knowledge of Xs and Os can factor in the truth that the way JP was treated last year did absolutely NOTHING to foster his confidence.

 

Give JP a year. A full year. If Mickey's right, I'll be the first to admit it. But to suggest he's done after 8 starts is just crazy. The moment they pulled JP and put in Holcomb, I was officially out of the TD/MM camp.

734430[/snapback]

Amen! I think MM was a lousy coach who made a rash of lousy decisions and not giving JP a chance to succeed or fail may be one of the most damaging things he die...both to JP and to the Bills. I'm pulling for Losman to do well, and I'm not going to judge him until he gets this season under his belt. I think ML and DJ have been around long enough and are patient enough to give him a good look, and gutsy enough to pull the trigger on him if he doesn't work out at the end of this season.