Is JP kicking Holcomb's tail?

[Mickey]

This is directed at those who have been able to get out to camp and have seen the two play. I think there is universal agreement that Holcomb is and will never be anything more than a mediocre QB. That being the case, I think we are all hoping that JP wins the starting job and does so handily. The numbers from last year show that they both were pretty awful but that Holcomb was actually a little less awful than JP. What I have heard from a number of you who have posted camp reports does not fill me with a sense of excitement over JP's hoped for improvement. Mostly what I am hearing is that neither one is standing out and that JP is still struggling with accuracy. I haven't heard anyone say that JP is outplaying Holcomb in a big way in camp.

 

Honestly, if JP can't run rings around a mediocrity like Kelly Holcomb, then we have got some problems.

 

So tell me, those of you who have seen them in camp, what is the deal? Is JP wiping the floor with Holcomb? Is it a dead heat? Is there just a slight edge to one or the other?

 

Please, none of that "he looks confident" touchy, feely stuff.

 

Is it too early for JP to be kicking Holcomb's tail? We are 8 practices in to camp with only 17 or so more to go before camp closes and they have had 16 days or so of OTA's as well. Maybe we need to see how they do in a few preseason games but by now, shouldn't we be starting to see JP taking undisputed possession of the QB spot?

[tennesseeboy]

The other day on Sirius I heard a reporter from Green Bay give a critique of Nall. Essentially he said Nall showed some real stuff in games at Green Bay but most of it was on mop up duty. The scary thing is he said Nall had an accuracy problem which hopefully would be alleviated as he played on. I'm hopeful for Losman to produce this year as I think we sink or swim with him. Holcomb might keep us "respectable" but the team won't improve with him nor is he the guy for the future. Nall may get back in time to get back into the hunt, but it is not looking very good. This will be an interesting year for Buffalo. Let's hope for the best.

[Fewell733]

From the talk on the radio this morning, it sounded like Holcomb is doing his thing- tons of check downs, which JP has had success going down the field (passes further than 8 yards.) So it isn't exactly a direct comparison. If the coaches want a low risk, low reward offense- than Holcombe may be there man. But from what I've heard, Losman is making far more plays that would generate good offense and spreading the field more. In that way he IS wiping the floor with Holcomb.

 

This is directed at those who have been able to get out to camp and have seen the two play.  I think there is universal agreement that Holcomb is and will never be anything more than a mediocre QB.  That being the case, I think we are all hoping that JP wins the starting job and does so handily.  The numbers from last year show that they both were pretty awful but that Holcomb was actually a little less awful than JP.  What I have heard from a number of you who have posted camp reports does not fill me with a sense of excitement over JP's hoped for improvement.  Mostly what I am hearing is that neither one is standing out and that JP is still struggling with accuracy.  I haven't heard anyone say that JP is outplaying Holcomb in a big way in camp.

 

Honestly, if JP can't run rings around a mediocrity like Kelly Holcomb, then we have got some problems.

 

So tell me, those of you who have seen them in camp, what is the deal?  Is JP wiping the floor with Holcomb?  Is it a dead heat?  Is there just a slight edge to one or the other? 

 

Please, none of that "he looks confident" touchy, feely stuff. 

 

Is it too early for JP to be kicking Holcomb's tail?  We are 8 practices in to camp with only 17 or so more to go before camp closes and they have had 16 days or so of OTA's as well.  Maybe we need to see how they do in a few preseason games but by now, shouldn't we be starting to see JP taking undisputed possession of the QB spot?

733623[/snapback]

[Mickey]

From the talk on the radio this morning, it sounded like Holcomb is doing his thing- tons of check downs, which JP has had success going down the field (passes further than 8 yards.)  So it isn't exactly a direct comparison.  If the coaches want a low risk, low reward offense- than Holcombe may be there man.  But from what I've heard, Losman is making far more plays that would generate good offense and spreading the field more.  In that way he IS wiping the floor with Holcomb.

733634[/snapback]

I hope you are right but the comments I have heard form the people posting camp reports are along the following:

 

"Bad things from JP was inconsistency and accuracy, he threw a couple passes into the ground."

 

"Both Losman and Holcomb were good at times and sucked at times."

 

"JP seemed to do great on 7-on-7, but when it came to 11-on-11 he simply didn't perform very well with a rush in his face... He put a couple throws right in the dirt w/ pressure on him."

 

"Both JP Losman and Kelly Holcomb shared the practice time and again neither one stood out."

 

"This is where JP Losman lost the day. He started off by throwing to the feet of Robert Royal and then threw another low pass to Josh Reed's feet...Losman came in and overthrew Daimon Shelton."

 

"When he came back on the field, Losman overthrew Lee Evans and then threw a pass that was a little low to Anthony Thomas..."

 

"Losman forced a pass into coverage that was intercepted by rookie linebacker Keith Ellison."

 

 

In contrast, I haven't heard anyone report that JP was routing Holcomb which is exactly what he should be doing. I'd hate to think we spent the picks we spent on JP just to get a QB that was slightlly better than Kelly Holcomb.

 

I still expect JP to step it up and be the QB we thought we were drafting and I was hoping that he would do just that in camp from the git-go. I'm just not hearing that in the camp reports though.

 

Update, from the camp report posted for this morning's session:

 

"I only was there for 11 on 11 and 2-minute segments, but I saw 4 interceptions and a couple of bat-downs, plus plenty of pressure from the d-line."

 

"As for the QBs, the word remains "inconsistent". Both looked good at times and both threw some head-scratchers."

 

Again, doesn't sound like JP is running away with the job as hoped.

 

 

And another update (this from our friend Nick in Rachacha):

 

"So far both QBs are doing about the same in training camp. And if they end training camp in a tie... Well tie goes to JP"

 

Update:

 

"Once in the red zone Holcomb took a few shots at the end zone, but overthrew George Wilson and Parrish and then finished the drive with an interception in the end zone as Matt Bowen picked off the pass intended for Wilson. While JP Losman didn't do much better (going 4 and out on his two minute drill)."

 

And another update:

 

"...Holcomb clearly won this round...Losman seemed to be off target with his receivers and he seemed to throw the ball too late. He overthrew the receivers quite a bit...Losman came in and looked just as frustrated as before...That was probably the worst I have seen him [Losman] look this year."

 

UPdate: Ahh, finally, some good news and a mention of Nance, kewl:

 

"Losman was much sharper today than he was the day before particularly on his deep passes. He dropped a pass over the corner and the safety along the right sideline right into the arms of Davis for a 30-yard play. It was a well-timed and well executed play.Prior to that he made a nice connection with Martin Nance as the timing was perfect on his route down the seam. Parrish also made a couple of good receptions."

 

Update:

 

(from Rockpile on the 8/3 practice) "JP looked much better than Holcomb. He was finding his intended receivers. Passes were tight and he was confidant. Holcomb was hesitant, dumping it off to RB’s a lot, but he is a good QB."

 

Now that is what I want to hear.

 

update 8/4: " Both QBs looked terrible too."

 

Remember the old adage: "If you have a quarterback controversey, odds are neither of them can play." Yikes.

[Mickey]

The other day on Sirius I heard a reporter from Green Bay give a critique of Nall.  Essentially he said Nall showed some real stuff in games at Green Bay but most of it was on mop up duty.  The scary thing is he said Nall had an accuracy problem which hopefully would be alleviated as he played on.  I'm hopeful for Losman to produce this year as I think we sink or swim with him.  Holcomb might keep us "respectable" but the team won't improve with him nor is he the guy for the future.  Nall may get back in time to get back into the hunt, but it is not looking very good.  This will be an interesting year for Buffalo.  Let's hope for the best.

733628[/snapback]

 

Yep, JP is the only guy on the roster who at least has the potential to lead a team to the playoffs. I was just hoping he would start dominating the QB battle early on and never look back. I am not hearing anything like that so far from the camp reports being posted.

[Fewell733]

Yep, JP is the only guy on the roster who at least has the potential to lead a team to the playoffs.  I was just hoping he would start dominating the QB battle early on and never look back.  I am not hearing anything like that so far from the camp reports being posted.

733652[/snapback]

 

What to you would be indicative of him dominating the QB battle? Holcomb is mediocre but completes the short little passes he throws. Are you hoping for a flawless performance from JP? That's just not gonna happen. Would it be easier if Holcomb played worse? Have you considered the possibility that they are both playing relatively well. Further, how bad can Holcomb look if he throws to an uncovered back on check downs?

Also, you keep listing the same quotes over and over again. Those were from a practice 2 days ago that JP threw two consecutive low balls. The news reported he went 11 for 12 last night in 11 on 11 drills. Most of them were mid range throws.

[AJ1]

This is directed at those who have been able to get out to camp and have seen the two play. I think there is universal agreement that Holcomb is and will never be anything more than a mediocre QB. That being the case, I think we are all hoping that JP wins the starting job and does so handily. The numbers from last year show that they both were pretty awful but that Holcomb was actually a little less awful than JP. What I have heard from a number of you who have posted camp reports does not fill me with a sense of excitement over JP's hoped for improvement. Mostly what I am hearing is that neither one is standing out and that JP is still struggling with accuracy. I haven't heard anyone say that JP is outplaying Holcomb in a big way in camp.

 

Honestly, if JP can't run rings around a mediocrity like Kelly Holcomb, then we have got some problems.

 

So tell me, those of you who have seen them in camp, what is the deal? Is JP wiping the floor with Holcomb? Is it a dead heat? Is there just a slight edge to one or the other?

 

Please, none of that "he looks confident" touchy, feely stuff.

 

 

At JP's experience and confidence level, I don't see him kicking Holcomb's rear to take control. I view JP's confidence as have been severely shaken, if not shattered, by the previous regime. That is Mike Mularkey's enduring and unwanted legacy to this team.

 

 

 

As far as performance, there is no comparison between the two. Sprinting back from the center to set up for the pass, Holcomb appears to be running in cement in comparison to JP. Same with rollouts right or left. JP moves out twice as quickly. The ball JP throws is a tight spiral; many times Holcomb's arrives flying like a wounded dove, 1/2 to a second or more behind JP's for the same distance. And it's no exaggeration to say the long pass threat simply is not there with Kelly behind the center.

 

The only phases of the game that one may claim KH is ahead is cool-headedness and experience. The only way JP arrives at that level is by playing.

 

I perceive JP's camp failures as attributeable to being under the microscope; any missteps are magnified by his trying to be a perfectionist.

 

In short, I don't see JP improving by sitting on the bench. He either improves by taking his lumps with playing time or the team finds out he can't handle the position.

 

I don't think there will be a clear winner in camp. Holcomb is a ho-hum, no upside, caretakers choice. JP is dazzling with inexperience and a lack of confidence as drawbacks. I go with potential and living with the ups and downs unless injury intervenes.

[Mark VI]

JP needs to start the whole year and take his lumps. Nall and Holcomb are nothing more than backups.

 

I'd be royally pissed if either was playing, while a healthy Losman stood on the sidelines.

[apuszczalowski]

On Shredd and Ragan yesterday they had someone on from camp and said the same things, neither has run away with the job yet like DJ and Marv hoped. They have both been good at times and bad at others. Hopefully its still early so they are still working things out, or that our defence is so good right now they would make any QB look mediocre? I'll take the second one for now!

[Fixxxer]

What worries me the most about JP is the inconsistency shown after a negative play.

He has to develop a short term memory about those bad plays and not let them get to him and his teammates.

 

I think accuracy will improve with playing time.

[Mickey]

 

This is directed at those who have been able to get out to camp and have seen the two play.  I think there is universal agreement that Holcomb is and will never be anything more than a mediocre QB.  That being the case, I think we are all hoping that JP wins the starting job and does so handily.  The numbers from last year show that they both were pretty awful but that Holcomb was actually a little less awful than JP.  What I have heard from a number of you who have posted camp reports does not fill me with a sense of excitement over JP's hoped for improvement.  Mostly what I am hearing is that neither one is standing out and that JP is still struggling with accuracy.  I haven't heard anyone say that JP is outplaying Holcomb in a big way in camp.

 

Honestly, if JP can't run rings around a mediocrity like Kelly Holcomb, then we have got some problems.

 

So tell me, those of you who have seen them in camp, what is the deal?  Is JP wiping the floor with Holcomb?  Is it a dead heat?  Is there just a slight edge to one or the other? 

 

Please, none of that "he looks confident" touchy, feely stuff.

At JP's experience and confidence level, I don't see him kicking Holcomb's rear to take control.  I view JP's confidence as have been severely shaken, if not shattered, by the previous regime. That is Mike Mularkey's enduring and unwanted legacy to this team.

As far as performance, there is no comparison between the two.  Sprinting back from the center to set up for the pass, Holcomb appears to be running in cement in comparison to JP.  Same with rollouts right or left.  JP moves out twice as quickly.  The ball JP throws is a tight spiral; many times Holcomb's arrives flying like a wounded dove, 1/2 to a second or more behind JP's for the same distance.  And it's no exaggeration to say the long pass threat simply is not there with Kelly behind the center.

 

The only phases of the game that one may claim KH is ahead is cool-headedness and experience.  The only way JP arrives at that level is by playing.

 

I perceive JP's camp failures as attributeable to being under the microscope; any missteps are magnified by his trying to be a perfectionist.

 

In short, I don't see JP improving by sitting on the bench.  He either improves by taking his lumps with playing time or the team finds out he can't handle the position.

 

I don't think there will be a clear winner in camp.  Holcomb is a ho-hum, no upside, caretakers choice.  JP is dazzling with inexperience and a lack of confidence as drawbacks.  I go with potential and living with the ups and downs unless injury intervenes.

733672[/snapback]

That microscope is nothing to what he will face during the season. Camp should be the less stressful situation. If you are right and he is struggling because of camp pressure, what is he going to do when regular season pressure hits?

 

I pretty much agree with everything you say, that JP isn't running away with it in camp but in the end, given his potential, he is our only real option.

 

I was hoping he would win this thing hands down in camp and so far, that isn't happening. Further, I have to wonder about a guy who is unable to out play Kelly Holcomb. I understand that the notion that we should take our lumps with him and so that he has a chance to learn but the same time, there comes a point where just have to face reality, even if the reality is that JP is not an NFL quarterback. This isn't his first year or his second, it is his third. This isn't his first go-round as the starting QB, that was last year. Yeah, they should have stuck with him more but even so, he did start for about 1/2 the year. JP isn't out of chances to show he is the man but he is getting there.

[Mickey]

On Shredd and Ragan yesterday they had someone on from camp and said the same things, neither has run away with the job yet like DJ and Marv hoped. They have both been good at times and bad at others. Hopefully its still early so they are still working things out, or that our defence is so good right now they would make any QB look mediocre? I'll take the second one for now!

733685[/snapback]

I hope your are right, that there is a reason that they are looking mediocre besides mediocrity.

 

I am not sure though that it is "too early to tell" so to speak. This is JP's third year and we had a whole year of alternating QB's between him and Holcomb. They have had 16 or so practice days during those OTA's and we are 1/3 of the way through training camp. Essentially we have had 2 years, 16 OTAs and 8 practices worth of mediocrity. Time for JP to make things happen. He works hard, has all the physical skills and appears to have the righ attitude. He puts that all together, he could be incredible.

[Kelly the Dog]

As many here know, I am a very big Losman advocate. I don't think he is great by any stretch but he has the tools to be very good if not great. In fact, as of 08.02.06 he is very average.

 

That said, I don't think he should be wiping the floor with Holcomb in practice yet at all. Holcomb is a VERY decent NFL quarterback. He may be a very good to great "back-up" quarterback, meaning he can start in this league in a pinch. He can fill in well. He can be a caretaker for a team if the starter goes down. I bet a ton of teams in the NFL right now would LOVE to have Holcomb on their roster. He's very smart, very experienced, a hard worker, and mechanically decent. If he had a cannon we would probably love him. But he doesn't. It's not that he doesn't like to go downfield, he knows he can't. That's why he isn't a starter and shouldn't be.

 

JP does certain things already better than Holcomb, and JP should be the starter on this team. It's not even questionable, IMO, despite the charade of the open competition (which granted, I will say is good the JP and the team and the fans but a sham nonetheless). If JP WAS wiping the field with Holcomb in this camp, he would be a bona fide star already. He shouldn't be. He won't, IMO, throughout camp. But that doesn't mean he isn't the better choice or a no-brainer to start.

[IDBillzFan]

If someone would just give Kingsbury a chance, I'm sure we'd stop talking about this Losman-Holcomb nonsense. The dude averaged 17 yards a pass when he was with the Jets, and posted a 78.7 rating when he was with the Cologne Centurions.

 

He needs to get in there and play. Only then will this Losman-Holcomb crap stop.

[AJ1]

 

I was hoping he would win this thing hands down in camp and so far, that isn't happening.  Further, I have to wonder about a guy who is unable to out play Kelly Holcomb.  I understand that the notion that we should take our lumps with him and so that he has a chance to learn but the same time, there comes a point where just have to face reality, even if the reality is that JP is not an NFL quarterback.  This isn't his first year or his second, it is his third.  This isn't his first go-round as the starting QB, that was last year.  Yeah, they should have stuck with him more but even so, he did start for about 1/2 the year.  JP isn't out of chances to show he is the man but he is getting there.

733757[/snapback]

 

You know, I don't know what in Juaron's mind constitutes winning the job outright in camp. Kelly is no slouch performer, especially in camp drills. I personnally think that it will have come down to overall performance in the pre-season games. Both players ( I'm eliminating Nall from the competition) have be able to show what they can do with the first team. That may mean using all four practice games to evaluate the QB position. I think that the Bills brain trust has boxed themselves in imaging one candidate was going to appear head and shoulders above the others. I agree with others that a tie should go to the younger guy.

 

I believe that JP gets better on a gradual slope, not by great leaps. If true, he needs more than one camp to solidify his position as starter.

 

Therefore. what I expect is give him every start this season and see if, in fact, he has made progress by the end of the season. If he has, the QB spot should fine.

If not the search goes on. But you have got to give JP the extended look to be sure.

[IDBillzFan]

Therefore. what I expect is give him every start this season and see if, in fact, he has made progress by the end of the season.  If he has, the QB spot should fine.If not the search goes on.  But you have got to give JP the extended look to be sure.

733788[/snapback]

Gee, if only we could have done that last year.

[Mickey]

As many here know, I am a very big Losman advocate. I don't think he is great by any stretch but he has the tools to be very good if not great. In fact, as of 08.02.06 he is very average.

 

That said, I don't think he should be wiping the floor with Holcomb in practice yet at all. Holcomb is a VERY decent NFL quarterback. He may be a very good to great "back-up" quarterback, meaning he can start in this league in a pinch. He can fill in well. He can be a caretaker for a team if the starter goes down. I bet a ton of teams in the NFL right now would LOVE to have Holcomb on their roster. He's very smart, very experienced, a hard worker, and mechanically decent. If he had a cannon we would probably love him. But he doesn't. It's not that he doesn't like to go downfield, he knows he can't. That's why he isn't a starter and shouldn't be.

 

JP does certain things already better than Holcomb, and JP should be the starter on this team. It's not even questionable, IMO, despite the charade of the open competition (which granted, I will say is good the JP and the team and the fans but a sham nonetheless). If JP WAS wiping the field with Holcomb in this camp, he would be a bona fide star already. He shouldn't be. He won't, IMO, throughout camp. But that doesn't mean he isn't the better choice or a no-brainer to start.

733777[/snapback]

Good point. Maybe the conventional wisdom that Holcomb is mediocre at best is off the mark. I agree that JP is a no-brainer to start unless one of the other two has an eye popping camp and JP plays like a train wreck. Still, at this point in his career, I would have expected to see more. If you told me just before we drafted him that three years later we would be wondering if he or Kelly Holcomb gave us a better chance at winning, I probably would have said "draft someone else".

 

He isn't a bust by any means but at some point, I would argue that this season is that "point", he has to produce. It doesn't have to be wins. When Kelly first arrived, we didn't win right away but he showed enough on the field to leave no doubt that he was all the QB we were going to need for a long while.

[Kelly the Dog]

Good point.  Maybe the conventional wisdom that Holcomb is mediocre at best is off the mark.  I agree that JP is a no-brainer to start unless one of the other two has an eye popping camp and JP plays like a train wreck.  Still, at this point in his career, I would have expected to see more.  If you told me just before we drafted him that three years later we would be wondering if he or Kelly Holcomb gave us a better chance at winning, I probably would have said "draft someone else".

 

He isn't a bust by any means but at some point, I would argue that this season is that "point", he has to produce.  It doesn't have to be wins.  When Kelly first arrived, we didn't win right away but he showed enough on the field to leave no doubt that he was all the QB we were going to need for a long while.

733798[/snapback]

Kelly had played two full years as a pro before he came to the Bills. If Losman played two full seasons on the Bills and he was going into his third, I guarantee we'd see a completely different player. The Bills would have sucked the last couple years but they sucked last year anyway. By the end of last year I would have expected the light to be on for JP. Now we have to wait one more full year.

[Mickey]

Gee, if only we could have done that last year.

733795[/snapback]

He got half the starts. How many does he need before we can legitimately expect him to start producing, if not wins, at least some hope that we won't need to draft another QB for a long while?

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

If someone would just give Kingsbury a chance, I'm sure we'd stop talking about this Losman-Holcomb nonsense. The dude averaged 17 yards a pass when he was with the Jets, and posted a 78.7 rating when he was with the Cologne Centurions.

 

He needs to get in there and play. Only then will this Losman-Holcomb crap stop.

733785[/snapback]

 

I can't tell whether that's sarcasm or not.