So Liberals...

[Crap Throwing Monkey]

2-2, split decision so far. I'll assume IowaBill's a "no", since I don't have a PhD...but no one else has an opinion?

[cromagnum]

2-2, split decision so far.  I'll assume IowaBill's a "no", since I don't have a PhD...but no one else has an opinion?

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CTM you are very intelligent, Please post the history report, I enjoy reading information about military and history as others I'm sure do, and if a debate war results cuz of it, that's cool

[Taro T]

2-2, split decision so far.  I'll assume IowaBill's a "no", since I don't have a PhD...but no one else has an opinion?

754217[/snapback]

Kurt's response back could be entertaining. I say post it. (So it's tied again, right?)

[Chilly]

2-2, split decision so far.  I'll assume IowaBill's a "no", since I don't have a PhD...but no one else has an opinion?

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I'll say yes, just so we can see what he comes up with next in response!

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

Sorry, mate. 

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Tie me kangaroo, down, sport!

 

Who are you, Crocodile Dundee?

 

[meazza]

2-2, split decision so far.  I'll assume IowaBill's a "no", since I don't have a PhD...but no one else has an opinion?

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even if you do... KG will still say you're a monkey face and come out with pathetic arguments...

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

I want to read it.

[X. Benedict]

I have agonized over this all day. I say yeah.

[meazza]

I have agonized over this all day. I say yeah.

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you must have nothing to do then

[IBTG81]

I have to say yes also!

 

Go for it!

[X. Benedict]

you must have nothing to do then

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Tom is sure to write something good.

 

And then we will suffer a plague of "truthiness"*

 

 

 

*spew unencumbered by facts.

[Cheeseburger in Paradise]

2-2, split decision so far.  I'll assume IowaBill's a "no", since I don't have a PhD...but no one else has an opinion?

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Careful when you assume, CTM. I have no problem with you making and azz of yourself, but........

 

I don't think you need to post your findings, I think anyone with a little bit of time can find many of the holes in KG77's statments about the Dresden raid(s). What little I remembered from classes 25 years ago at UB gave me enough to go on to do some searchs that invalidated enough of what he said in his postings about Dresden. As for his other disgareements between the two of you, it was just more grist for the PPP mill, and really not all that interesting.

 

Since I know your reading AD, happy belated birthday, you libertarian lunatic.

[Crap Throwing Monkey]

Well...all righty then...

 

Major factories in Dresden:

Seidel und Naumann AG: precision subcomponents for aircraft and naval use.

Richard Gaebel & Co.: Torpedo parts, shell casings.

Universelle-Werke: Machine guns, guidance components, searchlights.

Deutsche Waffen: the largest ammunition manufacturer in Germany.

Radio-Mende: field radios, aircraft radios, cryptographic gear, fuses.

Deutsche Werkstaette Hellerau: aircraft and rocket subcomponents.

Bruekner, Kanis & Co.: precision turbines (i.e. "jet engines").

Cartonnagenindustrie: field ration containers

Infesto-Works: Torpedo parts

Glaeserkarrosserie: aircraft subcomponents.

Zeiss-Ikon: precision optics (binoculars, gunsights, cameras.

There were 116 other manufacturers in Dresden large enough to warrant an official three-leter manufacturing code (Zeiss-Ikon, for example, was "dpv"). That alone makes Dresden not only the largest manufacturing city outside of the Ruhr and Berlin, but the largest precision manufacturing center in Germany.

 

Railyards: Hauptbahnhof, with the repair yards and headquarters for the Dresden directorate of the state railways (responsible for all of Saxony and Sudetenland, and parts of Bohemia and Silesia - Dresden was actually THE major rail junction in Saxony, making it the key point in the rail line supplying Germany's southern forces). Friedrichstadt M/Y, the transfer point for Elbe River traffic. Dresden-Neustadt, the "secondary" goods station and rail yard in Dresden that serviced, conservatively, five thousand goods trains a week, and the main Neustadt station, which in early '45 transitted the equivalent of two full divisions of soldiers each day.

 

Aiming points for the raids:

 

Bomber Command 5 Group (1st raid, 244 bombers, 880 tons ordnance, roughly 10pm local): The Dresden Sport Club, specifically the Ostragehege Staduim belonging to such. Reason being: it was easily identifiable from 8000 feet up, and it was roughly 400 yards from the Marienbruecke railway bridge. Bombing times and bomber courses were set to distribute bombs in a pattern extending from the Marienbruecke towards the Hauptbahnhof...that is, roughly along the most important rail line in the city, connecting Hauptbahnhof, Dresden-Neustadt, and Neustadt via Marienbruecke.

 

An important point here: British bombing doctrine at the time involved was was called the "double blow": one early, smaller force of bombers to basically "mark" the target, a second heavier force to do the real damage. 5 Group was chosen for the first raid, as the Group's specific doctrine (time-and-distance bombing) and training (specifically, experience with LORAN) were more suitable to marking a distant target than 8 Pathfinder Group's (who would usually perform the marking, hence the name "Pathfinder"). But regardless, 5 Group's purpose was, put simply, in deference to Kurt's stupidity, to identify the target for the following main raid.

 

Bomber Command 1,3,6,8 Pathfinder Groups (2nd raid, 524 bombers, 1770 tons ordnance, roughly 2am local): the Altmarkt, roughly one mile southeast of the first aim point, extending further south along the rail line through the Hauptbahnhof. The Master Bomber, upon reaching the scene, was unable to discern the aim point, as the first raid's performance was unexpectedly devastating, and on his own authority shifted the aim point away from the rail line to the industrial areas in Friedrichstadt and Johannstadt, and the marshalling yards at the Hauptbahnhof (roughly northeast, southwest, and south of the Altmarkt, respectively).

 

First Bombardment Division of the 8th USAAF (3rd raid, 400+ bombers, 1100 tons ordnance - at takeoff): "Dresden Marshalling Yards and Chemnitz Marshalling Yards" (italics mine). The American raid was pretty much a hash - one bomb wing got lost in cloud and bombed Prague, the other two wings bombed with radar through unexpected broken overcast above Dresden, and most missed the aim point, some by as much as two miles. Visually identified and bombed targets were the Friedrichstadt rail yard and surrounding industry, Neustadt-Dresden yard, and the Loebtau yard. Most bombers bombed blind, and hit literally nothing. Ultimately, of the 1100 tons of bombs that left East Anglia, only about 600 got anywhere near Dresden.

 

That combination of raids, by the way, was the third time during the war Dresden had been bombed. February 13th, 1945 was not the "first" raid, as is so often claimed, but the third. The previous two raids, carried out by 8th USAAF, targeted the Friedrichstadt and Dresden-Neustadt yards.

 

It's hard to argue, too (unless you're a mouth-breathing pinhead like Kurt) that it was "FDR's" plan to perpretrate genocide against Germans...when the forces under FDR's command specifically targeted military and industrial sites and attempted to minimize civilian casualties (this is a far cry from how the war was fought in the Pacific - the most densely populated district in Tokyo was specifically bombed indiscriminately with a high proportion of incendaries because it would cause the most damage and kill the most people - Kurt's lack of outrage at which should not only be duly noted, but should be unsurprising given his racial agenda.)

 

Unless, as Kurt has stated, one believes that FDR commanded Bomber Command...which is just stupid. The order to bomb Dresden didn't come from FDR...it didn't even come from Churchill. It came from Air Marshall Arthur Harris. Specifically: before Yalta, the idea of bombing Eastern German cities to hinder German reinforcement of the Eastern Front was brought up (so that Churchill and FDR could bring a "Look, we're fighting too!" statement to the negotiating table to counter Soviet demands. That may not be clear to someone of Kurt's limited abilities, so let me restate it: CHURCHILL AND FDR WANTED TO COUNTER STALIN'S DEMANDS AT THE NEGOTIATING TABLE.) This resulted in the dusting-off of an old plan for "Operation Thunderclap", which had been written up a year previous for a massive raid on Berlin to dislocate German command and control, but wasn't followed through on because, and I quote: "attacks against oil targets should continue to take precedence over everything else."

 

Emphasis mine...because it speaks to another point Kurt got very, very, very incorrect earlier: the Allied air forces did not go from terror bombing before Normandy to tactical support during Normandy to terror bombing after Normandy. In fact, the bombing campaign after Normandy focused on disrupting and destroying Germany's capacity to use and make oil and oil products - diesel, gasoline, lubricating oil, kerosene, etc. It was a very specific, calculated, and successful campaign. It was not genocidal, as Kurt claims...unless he somehow now claiming petroleum is a human "subspecies"...which I wouldn't put past him, ignorant as he is. Kurt's mistake belief that the air forces during Normandy weren't engaged tactically is another issue...one that simply arises because he doesn't know what tactical means, which is frankly forgivable.

 

Anyhow..."Thunderclap" was originally envisioned as a massive raid against Berlin. When it was dusted off in January of '45, it was modified according to the reality of the war at that point: namely, that Berlin was already pretty much wrecked, and that bombing cities indiscriminately was not going to end the war that much more quickly than bombing transport and industrial targets. So the plan was modified so that, instead of one massive blow against one city, it was a series of strong raids (not unusually strong - the number of bombers sent against Dresden was average for the time, the bomb tonnage was actually lower than average) against several industrial and rail centers in Eastern Germany, including Dresden...and Berlin, Leipzig, Magdeberg, and Chemnitz. That is the order that Harris received (from Sir Charles Portal - the order he was given was basically "We should show the Soviets we're fighting...make a plan" from Churchill). Harris had his choice of five cities when he planned the raid; he chose Dresden. And nowhere does FDR even enter in to the decision.

 

As for reports of US fighters strafing civilians in Dresden: the first report of this anywhere was by an author named Axel Rodenberger in 1952!!! Until then, and although every aspect of the raid was promptly reported by officials in Dresden and Saxony, and although Goebbels exaggerated everything about the raid for propaganda purposes, there is no mention of it until seven years after the bombing. And even then, the aircraft accused of performing the strafing - the 20th FG - wasn't anywhere near Dresden, as they escorted the three aforementioned "lost" bomb groups to Prague.

 

And finally, as for the results of the Dresden raid: all the above named military industry and rail infrastructure were destroyed as targeted. It aided materially the collapse of the German military effort in Saxony (in ways that are beyond the understanding of Kurt's little pea-brain, but should be evident to anyone who understood what "the major rail junction in Saxony" meant). In terms of area destroyed, material damage, deaths, and effort, Dresden was in fact merely average (cities that suffered worse raids would include: Pfhorzeim - where 25% of the population died, as compared to 5% of Dresden, Wurzburg - where 98% of the city was destroyed, as compared to roughly 40% of Dresden, Kassel, Dortmund, Cologne, Hamburg, Rostock, Berlin, Magdeburg, Chemnitz). Housing destroyed was not the ridiculously imaginary number Kurt offered earlier, but 90k out of 220k units The best estimate of total deaths are between 20000 and 40000. The Dresdeners were actually pretty thorough about registering deaths in the raid and graves; those records give a number of about 22000. Eyewitness accounts from the ground tend to imply that number's low, but no higher than 40000 (e.g. Bergander, who studied, wrote about, and lived through the bombing). Numbers of 70000 and up have usually been bandied about by people such as McKee, with the logic of "Well, I can only verify 35000 deaths...but I personally think that's low, so I'm going to double it because it makes me feel better". The ridiculous 300k number Kurt threw out earlier is only claimed by one mister David Irving - who, much like Kurt himself, is a Nazi apologist and a !@#$ing moron.

[cromagnum]

Thats a great read CTM....Now I am going to be delving into the history of WW II.

That is absolutely fascinating, thanks for creating and posting ...

 

Is this going to a major battle field thread on ppp This should be great!

[Crap Throwing Monkey]

Is this going to a major battle field thread on ppp     This should be great!

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No. Kurt, if he responds at all, will just respond with "Monkeyface, you are a liar", as he always does when confronted with facts. He'll then, in order to "prove" I'm wrong, quote David Irving to me, because Irving has a better pedigree than I do (even though Irving is an idiot, who's basically been discredited by anyone not wearing a swastika armband, and Kurt's too damned dumb to understand the written word anyway). And then somehow, once again, I'll be arrogant for coherently disagreeing with his BS position that he doesn't understand and can't support.

[meazza]

No.  Kurt, if he responds at all, will just respond with "Monkeyface, you are a liar", as he always does when confronted with facts.  He'll then, in order to "prove" I'm wrong, quote David Irving to me, because Irving has a better pedigree than I do (even though Irving is an idiot, who's basically been discredited by anyone not wearing a swastika armband, and Kurt's too damned dumb to understand the written word anyway).  And then somehow, once again, I'll be arrogant for coherently disagreeing with his BS position that he doesn't understand and can't support. 

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good post... but this is an argument you won a while ago

 

you should work on curing a disease or something

[KurtGodel77]

No.  Kurt, if he responds at all, will just respond with "Monkeyface, you are a liar", as he always does when confronted with facts.

Wrong, as usual. The historian I'm going to quote is Thomas Fleming, whose book has been praised by the Wall Street Journal and the Washington Post. He writes the following:

The British, led by Air Marshal Sir Arthur Harris, never tried to apologize for Dresden.  Harris sneered that the protestors were motivated by a sentimental attachment to "German bands and Dresden shepherdesses."  He insisted the city was "a mass of munition works"--a lie.

In other words, your analysis was more a reiteration of British propaganda than historical fact. Flemming writes a more detailed description of Dresden elsewhere:

On February 13, the day after Yalta ended, the American and British air forces combined to produce the ultimate terror raid of the European war.  One would almost think Roosevelt's comment to Stalin that he felt more bloodthirsty than a year ago had been passed on to them.  Such an unlikely leak was not necessary.  Armed with the presidential authority to "dehouse" Germans in the name of the Strategic Bombing Survey, General Arnold had already ordered his subordinates to cooperate with the British in morale- (a.k.a. terror-) bombing.

 

The USAAF had signed aboard the British proposal, Thunderclap, a joint assault on cities in Eastern Germany.  Adding to everyone's enthusiasm was the belief that a demonstration of British-American air power would "add immeasurably" to FDR's strength in negotiating with the Russians at the postwar table.

 

On February 3, while the Yalta conference was convening, the Americans hit Berlin in the first act of Thunderclap.  Over 900 American bombers took part, killing an estimated 25,000 civilians.  Almost all the bombing was done by radar, the by now standard code word for blind.  In the next few days, Munich and Leipzig received the Thunderclap treatment, a combination of high explosive and incendiary bombs.

 

From February 13 to 15, it was Dresden's turn.  This old city, rich in architecture and history, was often called "the German Florence."  Bombed by two waves of British planes followed by a massive American assault, which dropped 475 tons of general bombs and 292 tons of incendiaries, Dresden was engulfed in a Hamburg-like firestorm that incinerated tens of thousands of people.  No one will ever know the exact number of deaths because the city was jammed with at least 500,000 refugees who had fled eastern Germany to escape the oncoming Red Army.  After much debate, an original figure of 300,000 was reduced to 60,000 dead and another 30,000 injured.  More than 7,000 public buildings and 30,000 houses were destroyed.  A German war correspondent who visited the ruins wrote, "A great city has been wiped from the map of Europe."

 

When the story of Dresden's immolation appeared in Swiss and other neutral country newspapers, U.S. Army Air Force officers grew more than a little alarmed for their reputations.  Various generals hastily put on the record their hitherto unmentioned opposition to Thunderclap raids.  The British reacted with considerable nastiness.  One of their top RAF officers gave an interview to an AP reporter, frankly admitting both the American and British were aiming at killing and dehousing civilians and creating chaos in Germany.  The newsman reported that "Allied air bosses" had decided to adopt "deliberate terror bombing . . . to hasten Hitler's doom."

 

What do we say? asked a frantic information officer at USAAF headquarters.  The American air chiefs huddled and decided there was only one solution: lie.  They claimed the censor had erred in clearing the AP reporter's story and solemnly declared there had been no change in American bombing policy; attacks were still directed "against military objectives."  General Marshall got into the act, asserting that at Yalta the Russians had asked for Dresden to be bombed.  The record shows that the Russians requested raids on Berlin and Leipzig but never mentioned Dresden.

 

Secretary of War Henry Stimson backed up the army air forces in a Washington press conference, roundly denouncing terror bombing.  But Stimson, nobody's fool, was uneasy with the ongoing controversy over Dresden.  In England, Churchill was under fierce attack in Parliament for resorting to barbarism.  Stimson asked for photo-reconnaissance pictures of Dresden to prove that "our objectives were military in nature."

 

The request was nervously forwarded to General Arnold, who was recuperating from a heart attack in Florida.  He wrote in the margin: "we must not get soft."  Whether Stimson ever saw any pictures is doubtful.  Dresden had no war industries worth mentioning, except a small factory that made lenses for gunsights.  The secretary of war dropped the subject.

[Crap Throwing Monkey]

Wrong, as usual.  The historian I'm going to quote is Thomas Fleming, whose book has been praised by the Wall Street Journal and the Washington Post.  He writes the following:

 

You're quoting Fleming???? The same asshat that said ten thousand deaths on 9/11 (before the death toll was known) no big deal, just the cost of being America, and justified it by saying "Well, we started it."? The same fool that thinks FDR kept Rommel from overthrowing Hitler because it would hurt his reelection chances, and bribed the Japanese to bomb Pearl Harbor so Germany would declar war on the US? Fleming actually knows less about Dresden than you do. You're actually quoting a bigger idiot than you to justify your own stupidity? "Praised in the Journal and Post." Right. Where? Both newspapers are online, you should be able to link a book review.

 

And check the notes and bibliography on "The New Dealer's War" (I assume you have it readily available, since a huge chunk of your drivel comes from it). What's his source for his Dresden nonsense? Yep, you guessed it: the aforementioned and already discredited Irving.

 

In other words, your analysis was more a reiteration of British propaganda than historical fact.  Flemming writes a more detailed description of Dresden elsewhere:

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I knew this would be your response. I tell you you're wrong, you ask me to prove it, I provide you with historical facts (most of what I typed is from archival sources. Dresden industry from the Dresdener Jahrbuch and OKW's Waffenamt. Raid information from copies of the raid briefings and after-action reports. Damage and death reports from the German Tagebuch for February 15th. You can't get more factual than that. ) And you come back with "Those aren't facts, because I disagree with them." Are you functionally brain-damaged?

[KurtGodel77]

You're quoting Fleming????  The same asshat that said ten thousand deaths on 9/11 (before the death toll was known) no big deal, just the cost of being America, and justified it by saying "Well, we started it."?  The same fool that thinks FDR kept Rommel from overthrowing Hitler because it would hurt his reelection chances, and bribed the Japanese to bomb Pearl Harbor so Germany would declar war on the US?

You knew I wouldn't be silly enough to agree with your portrayal of Fleming, right? As this thread has shown, you're not always the best at remembering the views of those with whom you disagree. So I'll put a big asterisk next to your representation of Fleming's 9-11 views. In The New Dealers' War, Fleming never so much as hinted that FDR bribed the Japanese to attack Pearl Harbor. He wrote that FDR imposed an oil embargo on Japan for the purpose of provoking an attack; which is in fact what happened.

  Fleming actually knows less about Dresden than you do.  You're actually quoting a bigger idiot than you to justify your own stupidity? 

Ah, so at least you're willing to admit there are those less intelligent than myself. If this is your attempt at flattery, it's failed!

"Praised in the Journal and Post."  Right.  Where?  Both newspapers are online, you should be able to link a book review.

The Washington Post described Fleming's book as "A gripping, controversial, informative, and sometimes infuriating look at FDR's leadership as the nation entered and fought WWII." The Wall Street Journal wrote, "Roosevelt haters will love this book--and even admirers will find themselves frequently disconcerted."

 

Moreover, the back of the book had this to say:

Thomas Fleming is author of more than forty books of fiction and nonfiction. . . . Fleming is a frequent guest and contributor to NPR, PBS, A&E, and the History Channel.

Obviously NPR, PBS, A&E, the History Channel, the Washington Post, and the Wall Street Journal take Fleming seriously. But hey, maybe all of them are wrong, and you alone are right! Just because a guy got a PhD in physics from MIT doesn't mean he knows anything about physics, and just because an historian is respected by the host of groups I've mentioned above doesn't mean he knows anything at all about history!

And check the notes and bibliography on "The New Dealer's War" (I assume you have it readily available, since a huge chunk of your drivel comes from it).  What's his source for his Dresden nonsense?  Yep, you guessed it: the aforementioned and already discredited Irving. 

Wrong again. Not one Irving reference in there. Below are the real footnotes for his excellent Dresden section:

 

Schaffer, Wings of Judgement, 96

Knightley, Philip The First Casualty, New York, 1975, 315

Schaffer, Wings of Judgement, 98-99; Sherry, The Rise of American Air Power, 261.

Schaffer, Wings of Judgement, 102-103.

 

Edit: a quick search revealed that Fleming has indeed been featured on NPR, as well as on PBS

But don't let this stop you from utterly destroying your own credibilty by attacking his.

[X. Benedict]

Wrong, as usual.  The historian I'm going to quote is Thomas Fleming, whose book has been praised by the Wall Street Journal and the Washington Post.  He writes the following:

 

In other words, your analysis was more a reiteration of British propaganda than historical fact.  Flemming writes a more detailed description of Dresden elsewhere:

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Does Stephen King have a theory about Dresden too?

Actually, Vonnegut would be a more reliable source, at least he was an eye-witness.

 

Usually the Washington Post - and even the Wall Street journal review books for general interest - and Publishers Weekly mostly for any monograph's ability to sell, but even they couldn't help themselves calling the work "absurd revisionism"

 

When you have a work like "The New Dealers' War" and only one historian in North America has bothered to review it, it is usually because his sourcing is generally thought to be sh-- and any academic library would only buy it for specialized collections for things like case studies in revisionism, or literary crackpots that occaisionally publish contrary histories to sell. Or some old academic drills to disabuse claims of facts in review exercises (something that sadly, few profs assign any more).

 

If there was any upside to any of this, Tom's post was probably one of the best I have ever seen. Too bad you skipped the Diary of Anne Frank in 4th grade and went right to this sh--.