Pine Barrens Mafia Posted August 1, 2006 Posted August 1, 2006 Yes, we would be fired unless we were so valuable to the company that they would put up with us pulling that. Fact is, we aren't. Whitner on the other hand, has a lot more cards to play with because his job talents are more unique than ours. People with special skills get paid more and have more pull than people without special skills in our society. Whitner has special skills, you don't. Don't blame him for our lack of a skill as marketable as his. Another difference, you can quit and work for anyone else you want. Whitner doesn't have that choice. His only bargaining chip is the hold out. As for him not being worthy of the #8 pick, that argument went out the window the second we picked him at #8. We got Ko in the 4th and everyone agrees he should have gone in the 2nd or even the 1st. Should the Bills pay him first or second round green? No way. The market is the market. Huff and Sims got 5 year deals, so should Whitner. 732751[/snapback] *bangs head on desk* I just can't understand how any fan of the NFL sides with the players in contract negotiations. Maybe I'm just too old-school for this league any more.
Kelly the Dog Posted August 1, 2006 Posted August 1, 2006 *bangs head on desk* I just can't understand how any fan of the NFL sides with the players in contract negotiations. Maybe I'm just too old-school for this league any more. 732764[/snapback] Tell me you would be totally happy seeing a guy at the desk next to yours making a significantly more amount of money than you, even though you were better at the same job. Or you were recruited first. Or you had a better resume. I'm positive JSP would look in the mirror and say, "Hey, get to work, schmuck! You should be happy you have a job!"
Mickey Posted August 1, 2006 Posted August 1, 2006 If he REALLY wants to get to camp, he goes to camp. That's the bottom line. If he was REALLY interested in being a team guy, he'd have canned the agent who's getting in the way of his being there and practicing. But you don't see him doing that, do you? No, he's sitting out NOT because his agent is making him. He's doing it because he wants to. You don't need to know all the numbers to see that, DAN. 732737[/snapback] Holding out is the only bargaining chip he has. You are asking him to throw that away and risk his and his family's future on a career ending injury for zero money just so that the team will think of him as a "team guy"? The players have all been there, they understand how the business works and this is absolutely a business. I hardly think the team is worried at all about this or begrudge him trying to get the best deal for his family. If anything, they probably respect him for not giving in to a bad deal. If he showed up without a contract he would, from the perspective of his family, be an irresponsible moron.
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted August 1, 2006 Posted August 1, 2006 Tell me you would be totally happy seeing a guy at the desk next to yours making a significantly more amount of money than you, even though you were better at the same job. Or you were recruited first. Or you had a better resume. I'm positive JSP would look in the mirror and say, "Hey, get to work, schmuck! You should be happy you have a job!" 732771[/snapback] It happens all the time. My boss is an idiot. But he's still my boss and he makes more money than I do. And with the job market the way it is, I *am* happy to have a job. Witner's in a similar situation. There's only so many NFL jobs to go around. If he really, truly wants to work (play), he'll take the deal and get into camp. But he's not and that speaks volumes, IMO. I actually (shock) have to give Marv kudos for sticking to his guns on this. Witner owes the Bills for drafting him at 8.
BUFFALOTONE Posted August 1, 2006 Posted August 1, 2006 If he REALLY wants to get to camp, he goes to camp. That's the bottom line. If he was REALLY interested in being a team guy, he'd have canned the agent who's getting in the way of his being there and practicing. But you don't see him doing that, do you? No, he's sitting out NOT because his agent is making him. He's doing it because he wants to. You don't need to know all the numbers to see that, DAN. 732737[/snapback] He cannot attend camp without a deal (see the Mcnair saga), what happens if he gets hurt while not under contract. That means he just threw his career away. Its not up to him to be there it is up to the agent and the bills. You cant fault this kid for planning for his future. He and his agent know he was taken there for a reason and they will use all the leverage they can to get DW the best deal.
Dan Gross Posted August 1, 2006 Posted August 1, 2006 *bangs head on desk* I just can't understand how any fan of the NFL sides with the players in contract negotiations. Maybe I'm just too old-school for this league any more. 732764[/snapback] For me it's not as much about taking sides as much as not automatically assuming that it's solely the player (or agent or team) in these situations. Not knowing anything more than the fact that the player is un-signed, only speculation from the media about length of contract being at issue, it's impossible to point fingers at anyone. Yes, if he wanted to, Donte could say "Agent, you're fired. I want to play football Mr. Overdorf. Please send me a contract with whatever value and whatever length and I will sign it." Would you, in that scenario? You see, I don't know the exact scenario, so I won't rush to judgement. If Donte holds a presser and says "hey, the Bills can't meet my needs, I'm staying home," then I'm right beside you Joe. But until then, I will not cast aspersions at anyone involved without knowing the situation....All I was doing was offering speculation that there were situations where he is not solely to blame...
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted August 1, 2006 Posted August 1, 2006 He cannot attend camp without a deal (see the Mcnair saga), what happens if he gets hurt while not under contract. That means he just threw his career away. Its not up to him to be there it is up to the agent and the bills. You cant fault this kid for planning for his future. He and his agent know he was taken there for a reason and they will use all the leverage they can to get DW the best deal. 732782[/snapback] If he wants to play, he'll take the Bills' deal and get to camp. It's happened before.
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted August 1, 2006 Posted August 1, 2006 You see, I don't know the exact scenario, so I won't rush to judgement. If Donte holds a presser and says "hey, the Bills can't meet my needs, I'm staying home," then I'm right beside you Joe. But until then, I will not cast aspersions at anyone involved without knowing the situation....All I was doing was offering speculation that there were situations where he is not solely to blame... 732787[/snapback] I think the sticking point to me is that it's been reported that the money is right in line where it should be. If the money's there and the point is the number of years on the contract, then why would someone who's itching to play hold out on a point such as that? Again, I'm a cynic, so I always expect the worst from people.
Dan Gross Posted August 1, 2006 Posted August 1, 2006 I think the sticking point to me is that it's been reported that the money is right in line where it should be. If the money's there and the point is the number of years on the contract, then why would someone who's itching to play hold out on a point such as that? Been reported? By whom? Whitner? His agent? Or the Bills? Again, I'm a cynic, so I always expect the worst from people. 732794[/snapback] I guess it's just amazing that you'd turn your cynicism in a direction other than towards the Buffalo Bills organization. Surprising and shocking to see you side with the Bills on something....
Scraps Posted August 1, 2006 Posted August 1, 2006 It happens all the time. My boss is an idiot. But he's still my boss and he makes more money than I do. And with the job market the way it is, I *am* happy to have a job. Witner's in a similar situation. There's only so many NFL jobs to go around. If he really, truly wants to work (play), he'll take the deal and get into camp. But he's not and that speaks volumes, IMO. I actually (shock) have to give Marv kudos for sticking to his guns on this. Witner owes the Bills for drafting him at 8. 732779[/snapback] The difference being that if he were to be fired (cut) he would have no problem finding another team that would pay him to work (play).
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted August 1, 2006 Posted August 1, 2006 I guess it's just amazing that you'd turn your cynicism in a direction other than towards the Buffalo Bills organization. Surprising and shocking to see you side with the Bills on something.... 732800[/snapback] Let me clarify my fanhood a bit for you. I root for the TEAM. Not its owners, not its players, not its coaches. I root for the team and the city to win. So if someone (the owner, the GM, the coaches, or a player) is screwing the team with bad actions, they're gonna hear it from me. Not like it matters.
Mickey Posted August 1, 2006 Posted August 1, 2006 *bangs head on desk* I just can't understand how any fan of the NFL sides with the players in contract negotiations. Maybe I'm just too old-school for this league any more. 732764[/snapback] We are both too old for a lot of things but that is another story, a sad one at that... Players are what make it happen. They make the bone jarring blocks, the huge hits, the amazing catches and the big throws. They make the impossible happen. The league makes money and enforces blackouts so I have to drive to Besides Joe, I am not on a "side" here. I don't know the facts here and neither do you. Can't tell who is being unreasonable. I have no problem with players getting a fair deal nor do I think teams should be held up if they have made a fair market value offer.
BuffaloRebound Posted August 1, 2006 Posted August 1, 2006 All the other Bills draft picks got their deals done in time including another 1st rounder that was supposedly drafted too high. If Whitner is being low-balled, he should go public with it. Otherwise, most rational people will assume he is holding out over the length of the contract, one which will be paying him more than every safety not named Roy Williams.
Dan Gross Posted August 1, 2006 Posted August 1, 2006 Let me clarify my fanhood a bit for you. I root for the TEAM. Not its owners, not its players, not its coaches. I root for the team and the city to win. So if someone (the owner, the GM, the coaches, or a player) is screwing the team with bad actions, they're gonna hear it from me. Not like it matters. 732807[/snapback] And so you know for a fact that it's solely Whitner, and not Overdorf/Levy/Wilson/Agent (whose name I'm too lazy to look up, even if it is given in this thread).... Why don't you go back to blaming Levy for picking Whitner in the first place? That's more your MO...After all, how can Whitner be the one screwing the team when he's a player we didn't need in the first place?
d_wag Posted August 1, 2006 Posted August 1, 2006 this reminds me of the ben watson situation a few years back........pats insisted on a 6 year deal, watson's agent stuck to a 5 year max.........he held out for 18 days, sticking by his agent and his demands....... bad move, and he eventually canned his agent and signed the 6 year deal to get in camp........unfortunately, likely because he was out of shape, he got hurt shortly there after and missed the season......hopefully whitner doesn't go down the same road......these guys should be smart enough to think for themselves, and if they want to get a deal done they can get a deal done at any time......
scribo Posted August 1, 2006 Posted August 1, 2006 Does anyone ever recall a player reporting to camp without a contract? I mean, rookies show up for OTAs before signing on the dotted line, why not do the same at training camp while your agent works things out with the team's front office? It will string things out quite a bit more for sure, but the team would likely be more willing to give in as the season grows closer, and all parties would be ready for the season this way. Of course, is there really a reason for players to want to be ready to start early in their rookie season? No one is going to remember what Whittner did in his rookie season five years from now when he is looking to cash in as a free agent. In other words, why should he care if he misses all of camp and isn't the starter until half way through the season? He just saved himself a good deal of wear and tear and still got his cash in the end. This system is not practical for the teams.
SnakeOiler Posted August 1, 2006 Posted August 1, 2006 A 5-year contract can be better for the team anyways if the player ends up sucking... less cap $ to eat once you cut him. 732192[/snapback] not true -- the team can cut the dude at any time if he sucks, and wash their hands of the contract. 5 years would mean he's a free agent and due a big pay day one year earlier is he's good...or even decent.
Kelly the Dog Posted August 1, 2006 Posted August 1, 2006 this reminds me of the ben watson situation a few years back........pats insisted on a 6 year deal, watson's agent stuck to a 5 year max.........he held out for 18 days, sticking by his agent and his demands....... bad move, and he eventually canned his agent and signed the 6 year deal to get in camp........unfortunately, likely because he was out of shape, he got hurt shortly there after and missed the season......hopefully whitner doesn't go down the same road......these guys should be smart enough to think for themselves, and if they want to get a deal done they can get a deal done at any time...... 732831[/snapback] Would you imagine that there were other players who held out a few extra days who received modest or substantial concessations by the teams which they were eventually thrilled with? Like, say, Reggie Bush?
John from Riverside Posted August 1, 2006 Posted August 1, 2006 this reminds me of the ben watson situation a few years back........pats insisted on a 6 year deal, watson's agent stuck to a 5 year max.........he held out for 18 days, sticking by his agent and his demands....... bad move, and he eventually canned his agent and signed the 6 year deal to get in camp........unfortunately, likely because he was out of shape, he got hurt shortly there after and missed the season......hopefully whitner doesn't go down the same road......these guys should be smart enough to think for themselves, and if they want to get a deal done they can get a deal done at any time...... 732831[/snapback] Yep....I was thinking (and posting) the same thing yesterday...especially about the getting hurt thing..... When Dante does get to camp....these other guys are going to be working at an uptempo NFL level......and Dante will be trying to catch up fast. Nothing good can come from that
Kelly the Dog Posted August 1, 2006 Posted August 1, 2006 not true -- the team can cut the dude at any time if he sucks, and wash their hands of the contract. 5 years would mean he's a free agent and due a big pay day one year earlier is he's good...or even decent. 732848[/snapback] No. Is true. At the #1 pick, he could get 10-12 million in bonus money. That could cost the team 2 million if he is cut a year earlier. At least on the cap. Furthermore, while the second contract is usually spoke of in terms of the bigger one, that is not really true for high picks. Think Mike Williams second contract is bigger than his first? Without looking at the drafts or players, I would bet that on average the top 8 players drafted in each of the last ten years made more money on their first contract than their second. Because of all the flops and because of the ridiculous dollars spent on rookies in the top 8.
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