PJBrown Posted July 30, 2006 Share Posted July 30, 2006 ....try to pee in our cheerios all you want, I will remain optomistic until proven otherwise...then will start all over again...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buftex Posted July 30, 2006 Share Posted July 30, 2006 Funny, I thought Sullivan's article was realistic, and it left me anticipating this coming Bills season a little more... I honestly think Sullivan gets an incredibly bad rap from Bills fans...lets face it, there haven't been a lot of positive Bills slants to take the last 6 years or so...his job isn't to be a PR mouth piece for the Bills. People here have ragged on Sullivan for years, yet they never acknowledge, when the dust settles, more often than not, he has been right about things...he had been telling us for a couple seasons that TD, was, essentially, a pompous, self-lovoing, a-hole. Sullivan was always questioning TD's moves. Most every Bills fanatic here, wanting so desperately to belive the team was close to winning a Super Bowl piled on, thread after thread, about what a clown Sullivan was... Go back and read Sullivans' article from today....is it really that negative? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffOrange Posted July 30, 2006 Share Posted July 30, 2006 Funny, I thought Sullivan's article was realistic, and it left me anticipating this coming Bills season a little more... I honestly think Sullivan gets an incredibly bad rap from Bills fans...lets face it, there haven't been a lot of positive Bills slants to take the last 6 years or so...his job isn't to be a PR mouth piece for the Bills. People here have ragged on Sullivan for years, yet they never acknowledge, when the dust settles, more often than not, he has been right about things...he had been telling us for a couple seasons that TD, was, essentially, a pompous, self-lovoing, a-hole. Sullivan was always questioning TD's moves. Most every Bills fanatic here, wanting so desperately to belive the team was close to winning a Super Bowl piled on, thread after thread, about what a clown Sullivan was... Go back and read Sullivans' article from today....is it really that negative? 731739[/snapback] I agree. The only thing I don't like is his analysis of individual games during the season. He's the ultimate 20/20 hindsight guy and it makes him sound like a 12 year old kid: "That trick play was a terrible call because it didn't work" or "going for it there was a great call because it worked". I think his general big picture articles are usually pretty close to dead-on though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nanker Posted July 30, 2006 Share Posted July 30, 2006 Funny, I thought Sullivan's article was realistic, and it left me anticipating this coming Bills season a little more... I honestly think Sullivan gets an incredibly bad rap from Bills fans...lets face it, there haven't been a lot of positive Bills slants to take the last 6 years or so...his job isn't to be a PR mouth piece for the Bills. People here have ragged on Sullivan for years, yet they never acknowledge, when the dust settles, more often than not, he has been right about things...he had been telling us for a couple seasons that TD, was, essentially, a pompous, self-lovoing, a-hole. Sullivan was always questioning TD's moves. Most every Bills fanatic here, wanting so desperately to belive the team was close to winning a Super Bowl piled on, thread after thread, about what a clown Sullivan was... Go back and read Sullivans' article from today....is it really that negative? 731739[/snapback] Jerry - pissing in somebody's Cheerios, or telling it like it is? Certainly no more negative than many of my posts. "Look at the projected starting lineup. Of the 22 starters, how many would be considered among the top 12 players in the NFL at their position? I counted one - cornerback Nate Clements. And based on last season, I'm not so sure about him." Seems like Jerry's been reading TBD. I think he's pushing something more than a reasonable point here though. "But the talent on this team simply isn't good enough. Donahoe left too big a mess behind. It's wishful thinking to call the Bills a contender. With apologies to Spikes and Fletcher, it might be overly kind to call it a rebuilding year. This season might be the bottoming out before the real rebuilding ensues a year from now." I honestly think The Bills aren't in that bad a shape though. I think the worst is over. This season may not be pretty, but it's going to be the start back to credibility. Face it, The Bills have earned the disrespect of the League and the media. It's time they start earning back their respect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawgg Posted July 31, 2006 Share Posted July 31, 2006 Agreed, well said. Funny, I thought Sullivan's article was realistic, and it left me anticipating this coming Bills season a little more... I honestly think Sullivan gets an incredibly bad rap from Bills fans...lets face it, there haven't been a lot of positive Bills slants to take the last 6 years or so...his job isn't to be a PR mouth piece for the Bills. People here have ragged on Sullivan for years, yet they never acknowledge, when the dust settles, more often than not, he has been right about things...he had been telling us for a couple seasons that TD, was, essentially, a pompous, self-lovoing, a-hole. Sullivan was always questioning TD's moves. Most every Bills fanatic here, wanting so desperately to belive the team was close to winning a Super Bowl piled on, thread after thread, about what a clown Sullivan was... Go back and read Sullivans' article from today....is it really that negative? 731739[/snapback] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tortured Soul Posted July 31, 2006 Share Posted July 31, 2006 How was Sully during the SB years? I think you can make a case for McGahee, Peters (top 12 ROTs), Schobel (definitely), Spikes, Fletcher, and McGee (top 12 #2 CBs). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dibs Posted July 31, 2006 Share Posted July 31, 2006 It might be the best thing for the operation for them to be bad again, get a really high draft pick and make a serious run at it next season. I hate this sort of mentality. Not only does it advocate that losing is better....what about the fans???....but it implies that the 1 extra rookie obtained high in the next years draft will be enough for us to make a serious run. That's ridiculous. People often say that Football is the ultimate team sport. People often seem to totally forget that when assessing each team. 2001 Patriots 2004 Steelers 2004 Chargers 2005 Bears The list goes on & on. Did these 'teams' appear anywhere near the level they performed in these years previously? I'm not saying that we are one of those teams. What I am saying is that to totally discount the concept is either due to a natural emotive error or is deliberately done to perhaps illicit emotion from the readers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krazykat Posted July 31, 2006 Share Posted July 31, 2006 ....try to pee in our cheerios all you want, I will remain optomistic until proven otherwise...then will start all over again...... 731689[/snapback] Which will be like when, after the Miami game? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krazykat Posted July 31, 2006 Share Posted July 31, 2006 [i honestly think The Bills aren't in that bad a shape though. I think the worst is over. This season may not be pretty, but it's going to be the start back to credibility. Face it, The Bills have earned the disrespect of the League and the media. It's time they start earning back their respect. 731743[/snapback] Well, as long as that's honestly what you think. We hope that it's going to be the start back to credibility. We've heard the same thing for five seasons and let's face it, all the same people and types of people optimistic now were optimistic then too. What we believe doesn't make a damn bit of difference. It doesn't even matter what the coaches or players believe. Most of the 32 teams believe that they are going to the playoffs. What matters is talent and putting it together. He made a great point, how many players do we have that rank in the top 12 at their position? None really. Sure, we can all dream that McGahee, Evans, Spikes (after his injury), Clements, and some of our young talent are among the top 12s, but all we're doing is dreaming. It takes talent to win in the NFL. We just don't have it. Unless of course you believe eveything that Levy, Jauron and the coaches say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dibs Posted July 31, 2006 Share Posted July 31, 2006 Go back and read Sullivans' article from today....is it really that negative? 731739[/snapback] Well....there was not one optimistic part to the article.The only begrudging positive factor he gives is that TD has left....& he quickly dismisses it. The potential lucky breaks that can happen to the team he lumps together & basically scoffs at. But the talent on this team simply isn't good enough. Donahoe left too big a mess behind.Is it really that negative? Um...yes, it is. There is not one positive aspect to it what so ever....unless you count him suggesting we are so bad that the top draft pick we get because of it will be a positive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buftex Posted July 31, 2006 Share Posted July 31, 2006 Well....there was not one optimistic part to the article.The only begrudging positive factor he gives is that TD has left....& he quickly dismisses it. The potential lucky breaks that can happen to the team he lumps together & basically scoffs at. Is it really that negative? Um...yes, it is. There is not one positive aspect to it what so ever....unless you count him suggesting we are so bad that the top draft pick we get because of it will be a positive. 731765[/snapback] Again, I think his outlook is pretty realistic...he does acknowledge that, while things were left a mess, there is some optimism: "Still, reality has to intrude at some point. I'd love to be optimistic this early in the new season, but it's hard to do with this bunch. Marv Levy and Dick Jauron have done their best to foster an upbeat, winning attitude. They've brought in some promising young talent in the draft and some interesting free agents." To me, the article was advising that while the Bills may not win a hell of a lot this season, they appear on the way to improvement...something we are all kind of sick of hearing, but, I think (and Sullivan too, it appears) it is the best way to approach this season. Getting ones hopes up every year (2003 & 2005 stand out as the most dissappointing seasons in Bills history to me, in my 35 years as a Bills fan), only to have them crushed a few weeks into the season takes a lot out of me...keeping my hopes high, but my expectations realistic is much healthier.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pyrite Gal Posted July 31, 2006 Share Posted July 31, 2006 Again, I think his outlook is pretty realistic.. 732339[/snapback] I don't think he is being realistic in his assessment that Clements is the only Bill in the top 12 in the NFL his position. It is this specific judgment on his part which is easily debatable and on the face of it untrue that strikes me as taking a pessimistic approach which if he were honest he would acknowledge. I have no problem with him disagreeing on specific points, but he couches the article initially in say9ng this is a time for optimism but then he rejects it not for any defended reason, but because he wants to. One would expect better from a journalist. Specifically: 1. I think McGee us actually a better CB for us than NC. This clearly is the case if you assess their value to the team as MCGee's KR ability is Pro Bowl quality. However, it does not surprise me at all to here intial reports fron the first two days of camp when the D usually is ahead of the O in production that it is McGee who is standing out in coverage. If I was NC I would sign a new deal quick because opposing QBs are likely going to be picking on him to avoid the potential that they will have to face a return threat from the man who tied for the lead in Bills INTs last year. I think one can and should give props to NC as one of the 12 best CBs in the league (and certainly one of the 12 best RCBs which is actually the position he plays) because the market says he is with his franchise tag. However, I do not even think he is the best CB on the team and I would count these two as representing 2 of the best 12 (or 24 if you want to count them as 2 positions). 2, The TKO caveat is legit due to his injury, but even if one chooses to ignore him then I think Flercher is one of the top 12 MLBS. This may even be true of the whole LB category as I have been surprised that this man who has more tackled top his credit over the last five years than any other player in the NFL deserves the above average nod for the criteria that Sully sets. This adds up to 4 or at least 3 of the players being arguably among the top 12 at their positions in the NFL. 3. His singling out of Schobel for not being in the top 12 at his RDE position is simply odd for someone who is paid to know football. Folks looking at the NFL are too addicted to sacks being the sole measure of a good DE. However, Schobel was 5th in the NFL in this stat so Sully has some splainin to do about his jiudgment of Schobel. He could make the claim that there is more to the DE game than sacks and claim he likes 7 other RDEs better because they are more stout against the run. However, if Sully takes a fuller view of the RDE, then take a full view of how Schobel was used in our zone blitz. One of the reasons it worked was that Schobel shed a few pounds and showed unique athleticism for a DE. The way that Gray employed gun could see Schobel doing short zone coverage and even single covering a TE in the midzone at times. Despite this unusal usage you still saw Schobel register a bunch of sacks an a good amount to tackles. I think he is easily argued as a top 12 RDE or DE. 4. We are already up to 4 or 5 and it gets a little thinner when one goes to the O, but again his dismissal of WM makes sense in the what have you done for me lately school as he had a production outage in the second half. However, it simply is the fact that he finished 10th in total rush yardage looking over the whole season and also that he is THE fastest Bill to 2000 yards on the ground in our history, Add to that a little analysis which one would expect a good journalist to do and there are credible reasons (he can even call them excuses if he wants but he unjournalistically simply does not seem to factor them in): A. WM gained all his yards playing in a piss-poor O with a horrible OL and troubled QB situation. B. WM put on a bit of weight which may well account for some of his second half downturn (he apparently has taken a bit of the weight off this year). C. Our playcalling simply sucked in the second half as TC ended up stripped of this job, This factor has changed There are all sorts of reasons why Sully could credibly argue WM is in the top 12. 5. Again a reasonable internet poster might restrict himself to the D and O for this assessment if they want, but a journalist should do better. If so, then add Moorman to his list of the top 12 at their position further expanding it from the 1 he gives credit for to about a half dozen Bills who are above average in their craft. Sully is a pessimist and Bills fans are entitled to be if they chose. However, journalists are not and even if pundits are then they should know and say this about themselves or its simply poor journalism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buftex Posted July 31, 2006 Share Posted July 31, 2006 Sully is a pessimist and Bills fans are entitled to be if they chose. However, journalists are not and even if pundits are then they should know and say this about themselves or its simply poor journalism. 732365[/snapback] At the risk of another thread full of overly long posts (we are both too ling winded) I think your assesment is dead wrong...look at nearly every pre-season NFL publication that has come out so far this year...to the outside Buffalo Bills fan, NFL world, the only players on the Bills roster that are deemed above average, are Spikes (if healthy), Clements (if he bounces back from a bad year), McGee (as a special teamer) and McGahee...we might have the best punter in the NFL, and Schobel might be supremely underrated (I am not so sure about that), but until this team wins, and wins consistantly, all of that means nothing...I know, you write for yourself...you sound like another thin-skinned (although more eloquent) Bills fan who is upset that someone is telling you the Bills aren't going to win the Super Bowl this year...again, I thought Sullivans' column was pretty optimistic, maybe it is you who are crying over it, that are the pessimists? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PromoTheRobot Posted July 31, 2006 Share Posted July 31, 2006 You give Sully too much credit. Just read my signature for an example. Jerry wrote he loved TD picking Mike Williams, then spent the next 3 years hammering him for that pick. Being negative all the time may make you right more than you are wrong...but you are still just being negative. Jerry Sullivan does not possess any special insight into the Bills. He just loves pi$$ing in Cherrios. As for today's article, I did not think it was all that negative. But if you read Sully enough, you know that he will slip in a few snide comments just to let you know he thinks the Bills are clowns. And while we are talking about WGR (where Sully wa son the air today), There are no two bigger doofuses on the radio than Schopp and The Bulldog. I swear Bulldog can't remember what he says from 5 minutes ago. I hear him agree with one caller, then agree with another who says something completely opposite. All the while, Schopp is doing his best to bring everyone down. I live in New England where I have to hear the local sports talkers bash our teams. But when I go to Buffalo, do I have to hear more bashing? I swear the Buffalo media (The News and WGR mainly) LOVE misery, and love making fans miserable. I was home this weekend and read that the Air America experiment on 1270 WHLD is in it's death rattle. Now would be the opportunity to launch a sports talker to go against WGR. I could write a program strategy that would crush WGR: > Live local talk from 6am to 12 mid. No syndicated sports excerpt for overnight and fringe weekends. > Have a rotating roster of sports media sitting in with the regular hosts so that you get a wide range of discussion on topics. > Talk mostly Bills, then Sabres, but also do local college and high school games. > NO SNIPING ALLOWED! Topics will be discussed rationally. No negativity for it's own sake. PTR Funny, I thought Sullivan's article was realistic, and it left me anticipating this coming Bills season a little more... I honestly think Sullivan gets an incredibly bad rap from Bills fans...lets face it, there haven't been a lot of positive Bills slants to take the last 6 years or so...his job isn't to be a PR mouth piece for the Bills. People here have ragged on Sullivan for years, yet they never acknowledge, when the dust settles, more often than not, he has been right about things...he had been telling us for a couple seasons that TD, was, essentially, a pompous, self-lovoing, a-hole. Sullivan was always questioning TD's moves. Most every Bills fanatic here, wanting so desperately to belive the team was close to winning a Super Bowl piled on, thread after thread, about what a clown Sullivan was... Go back and read Sullivans' article from today....is it really that negative? 731739[/snapback] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lori Posted July 31, 2006 Share Posted July 31, 2006 I was home this weekend and read that the Air America experiment on 1270 WHLD is in it's death rattle. Now would be the opportunity to launch a sports talker to go against WGR. I could write a program strategy that would crush WGR: > Live local talk from 6am to 12 mid. No syndicated sports excerpt for overnight and fringe weekends. > Have a rotating roster of sports media sitting in with the regular hosts so that you get a wide range of discussion on topics. > Talk mostly Bills, then Sabres, but also do local college and high school games. > NO SNIPING ALLOWED! Topics will be discussed rationally. No negativity for it's own sake. PTR 732377[/snapback] PTR, except for the hours (live/local 6am-10pm on weekdays except for Rome), I think you just nailed a description of WNSA. Have I mentioned lately how much I miss NSA/Empire? P.S.: Good luck to my friends at Adelphia whose jobs disappeared as of 5 pm today... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buftex Posted July 31, 2006 Share Posted July 31, 2006 You give Sully too much credit. Just read my signature for an example. Jerry wrote he loved TD picking Mike Williams, then spent the next 3 years hammering him for that pick. Being negative all the time may make you right more than you are wrong...but you are still just being negative. Jerry Sullivan does not possess any special insight into the Bills. He just loves pi$$ing in Cherrios. As for today's article, I did not think it was all that negative. But if you read Sully enough, you know that he will slip in a few snide comments just to let you know he thinks the Bills are clowns. PTR 732377[/snapback] I read pretty much all of his columns...yeah, I think he is negative, but it is not normally un-warranted. I have seen him write some positive things about the Bills, and those things, when posted, never get any recognition...I remember postig a nice piece he did on JP Losman a few months ago, nothing negative about it...it was meant with far more, "Sullivan is an ass-clown" kind of comments than anything... The problem with Buffalo sports media, is sort of an extension of Buffalo sports fan...they are negative in general...look at the hysterics about the Sabres new uniform...when Brad Riter (the GR55) guy started arguing that he kind of liked it, and kept saying that people should reserve judgement until they see it for real, there were numerous threads here about what an "ass-bag" Riter is, and how GR just kisses up to the Sabres... You are correct, media in general, seems to be focused on the negative, but if they weren't, how much would you value what they have to say? It would be like going to BuffaloBills.com as your sole source for Bills information. The beat writers are the equivalant of BuffaloBills.com Sullivans' job is to have an opinion, and state it. Maybe I am too pessimistic, but there is much more negative, than there is positive, to report on...it is an increasingly cynacal world, and unfortunately, the sports (and world of big business that sports live in) are not free from that... I agree that Sullivan does not seem all that well connected to the Bills organization (and frankly, I can't think of a single local WNY based source that seems to be), so he doesn't offer much insider info...that is not really his job though...people kiss Larry Felsers' ass, because he is an old name...I have been reading him for about 30 years...in his prime, he was as negative as they come...now he is just a wealth of obvious, and useless information... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PromoTheRobot Posted August 1, 2006 Share Posted August 1, 2006 I agree that Sullivan does not seem all that well connected to the Bills organization (and frankly, I can't think of a single local WNY based source that seems to be), so he doesn't offer much insider info...that is not really his job though...people kiss Larry Felsers' ass, because he is an old name...I have been reading him for about 30 years...in his prime, he was as negative as they come...now he is just a wealth of obvious, and useless information... 732420[/snapback] The truth is being a sports columnist is about the best job there is. Write whatever you want. You don't even have to know a thing about what you are writing about. Just be sure to toss in a few snide remarks to be cool. You can contradict yourself because no one ever holds you accountable. PTR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dibs Posted August 1, 2006 Share Posted August 1, 2006 .....no one ever holds you accountable. 732573[/snapback] Accountability in the media.....that's an oxymoron isn't it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordio Posted August 1, 2006 Share Posted August 1, 2006 This article maybe realistic but isnt it a little premature? I mean at the time it was written, the bills have yet to even put the pads on @ Fisher. He should wait till at least after the 1st preseason game to write this Garbage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pyrite Gal Posted August 1, 2006 Share Posted August 1, 2006 At the risk of another thread full of overly long posts (we are both too ling winded) I think your assesment is dead wrong...look at nearly every pre-season NFL publication that has come out so far this year...to the outside Buffalo Bills fan, NFL world, the only players on the Bills roster that are deemed above average, are Spikes (if healthy), Clements (if he bounces back from a bad year), McGee (as a special teamer) and McGahee...we might have the best punter in the NFL, and Schobel might be supremely underrated (I am not so sure about that), but until this team wins, and wins consistantly, all of that means nothing...I know, you write for yourself...you sound like another thin-skinned (although more eloquent) Bills fan who is upset that someone is telling you the Bills aren't going to win the Super Bowl this year...again, I thought Sullivans' column was pretty optimistic, maybe it is you who are crying over it, that are the pessimists? 732367[/snapback] On the contrary. Perhaps I was bad at communicating what I think will likely happen to/with the Bills this season because I am thinking in print as I write and learning and writing and reading at the same time. I also think its pretty doubtful that the Bills will even have a winning record this year. The Super Bowl is pretty much out of the question unless their is a bizarre plane crash which involves 30 other teams. The playoffs are at least more likely than needing a series of plane crashes to get us there but is even far less likely to happen than the unlikely scenario of simply having a winning record. Please anyone who needs money to feed your kids like many NFL players, do not bet on the Bills having a winning record this year or your kids may well go hungry (though given the epidemic of obesity in this country this may not be a bad thing. The reason that I tend to post a lot and at great length about a more positive perspective on how the Bills might do is not because I am drop-dead certain I think they will. It is because I object to those legends in their own minds who seem so drop-dead certain that they will suck and we are DDDOOOMMMED. What I expect from any journalist and even an opinion meister like Sully is for them to have some grip on reality that they may well be wrong. Particulary with the timing of this piece, the conclusions which Sully seems to draw are so pre-mature it ain't even funny. Even worse he insults all of our intelligence by saying this is a time where one reasonably can be optimistic but then he paints merely one side of his "realistic" opinion. Sully has to fill column inches and that is his job. Yet there is such a great opportunity here to put out an article which has his opinions about what are some of the key questions which reality will provide an answer to quite soon, rather than trotting out his blather which is really little more than a fact-free guess how things will turn out. The annoying thing is that Sully has played the odds correctly in predicting DDOOMM, but he simply provides little good analysis for his prediction so when he turns out to be correct mostly by coinicidence he will claim or believe that he really has some insight into this game and this team. I think he made a mistake by actually using a fairly easy standard (a player arguably being better than average among 32 NFL teams with 22 field positions plus key ST performers( ti neet but then he tries to sell a very extreme view of how the players match up to this standard, The fact simply is when looking at RDE that given the cultural overemphasis on the importance of sacks, that numerically Schobel is easily among the top 12. Even though anyone who really even passingly knows the game sees that there is more than sacks (tthough that is a big part of the job) that determine the quality of an RDE, Yet, if Sully wants to rely on taking a broader view than simply sacks, a simply adequate journalist would also recognize that there is more to the RDE position as it was used in the zone blitz andthat Schobel actually proved to be quite sigular in the bg RDEs that he could also pass cover in the short and medium zone. My complaint about Sully is not that I disagree with him (I think life is at its most interesting when we interact positively with folks we disagree with) but that he is simply not very good at what he does. 1. His opinions are often mere fact-free opinions when he actually has the time because he is paid to follow this stuff. 2. He often takes the easy way out jumping on the clear failings of the Bills and repeating the obvious rather than doing good writing and describing how he thinks these problems might be solved (suggesting that someone get a clue is not a solution suggesting what clue they should get is more of a solution). 3. Writers are basically story tellers and Sully shows himself to be a legend in his own mind by devoting a column at this early date when it is not known by anyone what our O scheme is going to be besides a general susupicion that it will be some version of the Sty. L type O, and also all we know about our D is that it will not be the zone blitz but a cover 2 (though it is unclear whether it will be the Tampa 2 version or something else). Sully had a great opportunity to write interesting opinions about what the Bills may do and might be given the limitations of their personnel, but instead he proved to be a legend in his own mind predicting way too early what the outcome will be. I think reality is probably a better thing to look to here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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