Max997 Posted July 28, 2006 Share Posted July 28, 2006 Assuming Whitner gets a deal averaging around 4 mil a year that puts the Bills starting secondary close to 20 mil. That will give them one of if not the highest paid secondaries in the league Whitner could turn out to be a good player, I dont dislike him but I was not happy with the pick and I def think thats way too much money to be tied up in the secondary which with any team is only as good as its pass rush I figured the starting salaries for the secondary would be higher then the starting O-Line and D-Line but I was still surprised when I looked at these numbers. I got most of these salaries from BillsDaily but some were not there and I used last years salaries that were listed on USA Today. I also couldnt find anything on Reyes and Peters but even when they are added it still wont come close You win in the trenches in the NFL, not the secondary Vincent - $3.2 mil Clements - $7.22 mil McGee - $3.875 mil Whitner - $4 mil ( projected ) ----------------------------------- Starting secondary - $18.295 Fowler - $1.6 mil Villarial - $3.219 Peters - ? Reyes - ? Gandy - $995k ( 2005 salary ) ------------------------------------- Starting O-Line - $5.814 + Peters and Reyes Schobel - $4.567 Triplett - $1.85 Anderson - $488 ( 2005 salary ) Kelsay - $728k ( 2005 salary ) -------------------------------------- Staring D-Line - $7.633 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fewell733 Posted July 28, 2006 Share Posted July 28, 2006 The numbers will look a lot smaller next year when Vincent and Clements are gone. Also is 4 mill accurate for Whitner in his first year? Seems high, but I honestly don't know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Realist Posted July 28, 2006 Share Posted July 28, 2006 Assuming Whitner gets a deal averaging around 4 mil a year that puts the Bills starting secondary close to 20 mil. That will give them one of if not the highest paid secondaries in the league Whitner could turn out to be a good player, I dont dislike him but I was not happy with the pick and I def think thats way too much money to be tied up in the secondary which with any team is only as good as its pass rush I figured the starting salaries for the secondary would be higher then the starting O-Line and D-Line but I was still surprised when I looked at these numbers. I got most of these salaries from BillsDaily but some were not there and I used last years salaries that were listed on USA Today. I also couldnt find anything on Reyes and Peters but even when they are added it still wont come close You win in the trenches in the NFL, not the secondary Vincent - $3.2 mil Clements - $7.22 mil McGee - $3.875 mil Whitner - $4 mil ( projected ) ----------------------------------- Starting secondary - $18.295 Fowler - $1.6 mil Villarial - $3.219 Peters - ? Reyes - ? Gandy - $995k ( 2005 salary ) ------------------------------------- Starting O-Line - $5.814 + Peters and Reyes Schobel - $4.567 Triplett - $1.85 Anderson - $488 ( 2005 salary ) Kelsay - $728k ( 2005 salary ) -------------------------------------- Staring D-Line - $7.633 730955[/snapback] Well, then I have some "good" news for you for next year. Vincent will likely not be here next year, maybe not even this year. Also, Clements will probably not be here or if he is, hopefully at a very reduced rate since he gets a new contract. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max997 Posted July 28, 2006 Author Share Posted July 28, 2006 The numbers will look a lot smaller next year when Vincent and Clements are gone. Also is 4 mill accurate for Whitner in his first year? Seems high, but I honestly don't know. 730957[/snapback] I was just guessing based on what others are getting ahead of him but it should be around there cap wise Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scribo Posted July 28, 2006 Share Posted July 28, 2006 You'll also be able to raise the d-line number next year McCargo will be a starter, and he makes more than $488. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-gunner Posted July 28, 2006 Share Posted July 28, 2006 You want talent on your team (at any position)..you pay for it. Yeah it would be great to able to stock your team with All Pro caliber undrafted free agents.I swear it's unbelievable how people just dig for something to B word about.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max997 Posted July 28, 2006 Author Share Posted July 28, 2006 You want talent on your team (at any position)..you pay for it. Yeah it would be great to able to stock your team with All Pro caliber undrafted free agents.I swear it's unbelievable how people just dig for something to B word about.. 731114[/snapback] what are you talking about? Do you know anything about todays NFL? The point was that is the secondary really the place where you want that much money tied up with each starter making 4+ million? One or two of the guys fine, but all 4 thats just not good football management. I personally would rather see that money on the offensive or defensive line. Look around the league, how many teams have close to 20 mil tied up in the secondary and less then that on the offensive and defensive line combined. Whats the sense of having talent in the secondary with no pass rush? or not being able to stop the run? I love how people are too dumb to comprehend what is said and then decide to rip you for it...get a clue and try and understand what is being said next time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill from NYC Posted July 29, 2006 Share Posted July 29, 2006 what are you talking about? Do you know anything about todays NFL? The point was that is the secondary really the place where you want that much money tied up with each starter making 4+ million? One or two of the guys fine, but all 4 thats just not good football management. I personally would rather see that money on the offensive or defensive line. Look around the league, how many teams have close to 20 mil tied up in the secondary and less then that on the offensive and defensive line combined. Whats the sense of having talent in the secondary with no pass rush? or not being able to stop the run? I love how people are too dumb to comprehend what is said and then decide to rip you for it...get a clue and try and understand what is being said next time 731126[/snapback] This will fall on largely deaf ears and is to be expected, because this is in fact a Bills Board. Also, the season draws near, and people want to feel positive about their team, and this is all good. Btw, the numbers are probably worse than you make them appear. Toss in a 3rd and 4th round draft pick, and the total gets higher. Plus, if Nate and/or TV walks next year, do you think for a second that Marv won't go after another early corner/safety? Bet the mortgage that he will take another day 1 (if not round 1) defensive back. Either way, it is what it is, and all we can do is hope that some of the linemen we do have turn into good players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramius Posted July 29, 2006 Share Posted July 29, 2006 This will fall on largely deaf ears and is to be expected, because this is in fact a Bills Board. Also, the season draws near, and people want to feel positive about their team, and this is all good. Btw, the numbers are probably worse than you make them appear. Toss in a 3rd and 4th round draft pick, and the total gets higher. Plus, if Nate and/or TV walks next year, do you think for a second that Marv won't go after another early corner/safety? Bet the mortgage that he will take another day 1 (if not round 1) defensive back. Either way, it is what it is, and all we can do is hope that some of the linemen we do have turn into good players. 731143[/snapback] Yup, because the 4 year 2.1 million and the 4 year 2.5 million contracts of youboty and contracts are going to break the bank of our salary cap! Sure, the DB's are making a lot of money, but they wont be next year, and its not like we dont have any more cap space, or that their salaries are preventing us from signing these other big name o-line FA's that are obviously still out there. The only reason i am upset is because the call was 3 posts before you provided us with your "wonderful insight" and i took the under. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-gunner Posted July 29, 2006 Share Posted July 29, 2006 I did not mean to insult... It was not my intention.Its just that our secondary (along with both lines) has suffered in mediocrity or below for far too long.You have to start rebuilding somewhere and if it starts w/DB's so be it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apuszczalowski Posted July 29, 2006 Share Posted July 29, 2006 Seeing as how DB's are a big factor in the Cover 2 (maybe, just maybe the reason Marv took so many early this year in the draft) could be the reason they are higher payed. But if every one would have been content with a bunch of early draft picks on both lines, and Coy Wire as our top DB, I'm sure we'd here about how bad Marv did not getting any DB's Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthWesternBill Posted July 29, 2006 Share Posted July 29, 2006 Basicly this complaint is just an exension of the fact that we did not pull in any big nametrench free agents... or pick a trencher with our 1st overall.. plus the fact that we fired/ or lost to FA the trenchers that underachieved and made alot of money the last two years. If we still had MW then there would be more money tied up in the O-line. I understand your concern, I just am much more willing to wait and watch what happens this year instead of asserting I know what is best for the team. Marv has a plan, let's let them play some football. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsFan Trapped in Pats Land Posted July 29, 2006 Share Posted July 29, 2006 Anderson and Kelsay are still on their rookie contracts and neither was a 1st rounder, so their #s are obviously going to skew the D line down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebug Posted July 29, 2006 Share Posted July 29, 2006 I like the fact that Marv is trying to rebuild the D and I think this secondary can do some great things but, I can't beleive the amount of money rookies are signing for....Whitner 4M(projected) and he hasn't done a thing......what ever happened to proving your worth and then getting paid what you are worth? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OCinBuffalo Posted July 29, 2006 Share Posted July 29, 2006 Plus, if Nate and/or TV walks next year, do you think for a second that Marv won't go after another early corner/safety? Bet the mortgage that he will take another day 1 (if not round 1) defensive back. 731143[/snapback] I'll take that bet. Will Marv suddenly turn into an idiot next year? No. Do we now have all the d back help we need for the next 3 years? Yes. Didn't we draft 2 D Lineman and 1 O lineman this year? Yes. On average, it takes 2-3 years for lineman to either develop their skills and understanding or be assigned to the scrap heap. D backs, and other players that rely much more on their prue talent, tend to be able to start much sooner. We obviously needed starters, or close, this year - not prospects. That is why we drafted the way we did. The one time we tried it your way we got Mike Williams. IMHO, we should draft lineman in the lower rounds and see if they develop than waste high draft picks on them. We can always look to free agency to get line help, since we know exactly what we are getting in a guy who has played in the league 3-4 years. With the draft being the crapshoot that it is, why in the hell would we pass up chances to draft potential high output skill players(and maybe get another Andre Reed or Thermal) for lineman we won't know about for 2-3 years? I am not saying that we should never draft lineman. I am saying that our emphasis should be on skill players. I understand your thinking and motives regarding what it takes to win overall and I agree(especially with getting consistent lineman and keeping them together). However, I don't agree with your proposed methods regarding the draft - they are like hoping for a river card to fill an inside straight. Hopefully we will be out of the "drafting for need" trap next year and on to simply taking the best available player. But, if not, we should never ever have an arbitrary, lineman only draft and pretend that will solve all our problems. All in all, it's still a crapshoot. Anything can happen that makes one, both, or neither of us right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill from NYC Posted July 30, 2006 Share Posted July 30, 2006 >>>>The one time we tried it your way we got Mike Williams.<<<< I guess you thought little of Ruben Brown. >>>IMHO, we should draft lineman in the lower rounds and see if they develop than waste high draft picks on them. We can always look to free agency to get line help, since we know exactly what we are getting in a guy who has played in the league 3-4 years. <<< How many good free agents do you think are out there each year? Please list the good ones that were available, and tell us how the Bills, and other teams did while signing lower tier free agents to block. >>>>With the draft being the crapshoot that it is, why in the hell would we pass up chances to draft potential high output skill players(and maybe get another Andre Reed or Thermal) for lineman we won't know about for 2-3 years?<<<< It hasn't worked, right? Unless of course you think that Parrish might instantly develop into Andre Reed. Besides, skill players are useless when the qb (assuming you have a decent one) has no time to throw, or the rbs have no place to go. >>>> All in all, it's still a crapshoot. Anything can happen that makes one, both, or neither of us right.<<<< Very true. The Steelers and the Seahawks are examples of teams who drafted big guys early and often. It worked. The Bills are an example of a team who neglected both lines in the draft, and lost football games. This might help you understand what I am trying to say. 731321[/snapback] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAMIEBUF12 Posted July 30, 2006 Share Posted July 30, 2006 so whats the problem with having a top notch secondary????????????????????????????????????i'd think its a good thing .i like the players we drafted for the secondary this year and i see it as a strength.go bills in"06 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramius Posted July 30, 2006 Share Posted July 30, 2006 (edited) 731468[/snapback] FWIW, Carolina and Indy only have 1 1st round draft pick each on their lines. They also have lower round picks and FA's. Theres more than 1 way to skin a cat. EDIT: I am nto against the early drafting of o-linemen. It would help. But saying that drafting 1st round o-linemen is the ONLY way to get better, or think that our line would instantly be better just because we spent high picks on it is assinine. Also, to consider our draft a bust because we spent it on defense is assinine. Finally, to say that marv will "definitely" draft a CB in the 1st round is assinine as well. He took care of the secondary with this draft. That means we DONT HAVE TO DRAFT DB's early next year! Barring unforseen injuries this season, the bills will NOT draft a CB in round 1 next year, even if clements walks. Edited July 30, 2006 by Ramius Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dibs Posted July 30, 2006 Share Posted July 30, 2006 Very true. The Steelers and the Seahawks are examples of teams who drafted big guys early and often. It worked. The Bills are an example of a team who neglected both lines in the draft, and lost football games. 731468[/snapback] However, the Patriots and the Buccaneers are examples of teams who didn't draft big guys early nor often. It worked. The Saints and the Cowboys are examples of teams who drafted big guys early and often. It hasn't worked. I don't disagree with the importance of the O-Line, just with the single mindedness of how one should be formed. Perhaps it just didn't pan out this draft(to take O-Line in the 1st day). If you assume Whitner is a much, much surer thing than any O-Lineman after D'Brick, who & where would we have taken? If Youboty was a steel where we got him, that leaves the McCargo pick(s). We could not have gotten Mangold, Justice nor Lutui where we were. I want 1st day O-Line picks too but I also want our picks(whoever they are) to pan out. Most here on TBD would have been happy enough with Justice being picked at the #8 spot. If we had picked him it would not have made it a good pick but at least we could have said....."I'm happy, the O-Line was addressed so all will be well." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pyrite Gal Posted July 30, 2006 Share Posted July 30, 2006 This will fall on largely deaf ears and is to be expected, because this is in fact a Bills Board. Also, the season draws near, and people want to feel positive about their team, and this is all good. Btw, the numbers are probably worse than you make them appear. Toss in a 3rd and 4th round draft pick, and the total gets higher. Plus, if Nate and/or TV walks next year, do you think for a second that Marv won't go after another early corner/safety? Bet the mortgage that he will take another day 1 (if not round 1) defensive back. Either way, it is what it is, and all we can do is hope that some of the linemen we do have turn into good players. 731143[/snapback] The analysis ignores the simple point that though the amount spent on the secondary is high and one can express that high number with an AVERAGE of $4+ million per player. there is simply such a wide discrpancy between the $7+ million cap hit of the NC and the rest of the bunch that trying to reflect this large total as an average simply asks for poor analysis of the situation. The analysis also ignores the fact that the cap limit has increased significantly this year with the huge network payment to the NFL and will likely increase again when next year\s revenues are assessed. As by agreement in the CBA 59.5% of this money will have to be distributed to the players. All player salaries are going to have to increase significantly and in the not very distant future the $7+ million given to Nate will actually be no where near the top 5 in DB salaries (already it pales in comparison to the $18 million cap hit Peyton Manning alone requires). Given that even the one year NC amount is now by definition a one time event which will go down either way next year as NC will either be released or extended at a lower cap hit, this concerns is transitory at worse. If one wants to find a cap issue, then it is actually a better analysis to look at the significant amount of cap room (over $10 million) that the appear quite unlikely to spend this year, When NC's cap hit goes away and if TV s cut the Bills will spend no where near $11million to draft another Whitner type player in the first round to replace them. The bigger question this analysis raises is that assuming a worse case where we fo lose NC and TV and are left with "merely" McGee, Youbouty, Greer. King. Whtiner, AND the first rounder you envision to fill the 4 DB slots, do we spend the 10+ million, $11+ million from the loss of TV and NC. AND whatever the amount that the cap increases next year on getting a 7 th DB we are comfortable with or do we use this money on the other positions the poster identifies as more important. The analysis of these numbers simply does not go very far in looking at this situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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