Interesting article on special teams

[Typical TBD Guy]

HERE.

 

Says Wire is the special teams captain (I didn't know that).

 

Mr. Byrne also makes it sound like Wire and Aiken could be in danger of being cut...which I disagree with....special teams are the only good thing about this dismal roster. No way Levy and Jauron break this unit up.

 

I bet we keep 5 safeties, and I don't think Baker, Leonhard, or Lee are worth more than Wire. The WR competition looks more chaotic to me, but I think we keep 6 of 'em and Aiken has the edge over Smith, Wilson, Denney, and Nance.

 

Thoughts???

[Phlegm Alley]

Could the cutting of Coy Wire and losing his abilities on ST be equivalent to us losing Pat Williams and the effect it had on our run defense? Maybe. I think you're right though: ST has been the lone bright spot for us recently and why would you fix something that isn't broken?

[scribo]

The bad news for Wire is that Bowen is also a stud on special teams, and his roster spot is much safer than Wire's. I think Wire is gone, and Aiken is right behind him. Sorry, but the Bills were careful to bring in players this off-season who could contribute at a set position AND special teams. I have to believe this was done so that the team would not have to use valuable roster spots for players who offered no more than special teams play. Wire and Aiken are no Steve Tasker, so I am not looking for Marv to give them such treatment.

[Typical TBD Guy]

The bad news for Wire is that  Bowen is also a stud on special teams, and his roster spot is much safer than Wire's. I think Wire is gone, and Aiken is right behind him. Sorry, but the Bills were careful to bring in players this off-season who could contribute at a set position AND special teams. I have to believe this was done so that the team would not have to use valuable roster spots for players who offered no more than special teams play. Wire and Aiken are no Steve Tasker, so I am not looking for Marv to give them such treatment.

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What would be so terrible about keeping Wire AND Bowen? Again, if Wire is indeed the captain of the special teams, I just don't see the Bills cutting him. Same goes for Aiken, Haggan, Stamer, Burns, etc...

[Kelly the Dog]

What would be so terrible about keeping Wire AND Bowen? Again, if Wire is indeed the captain of the special teams, I just don't see the Bills cutting him. Same goes for Aiken, Haggan, Stamer, Burns, etc...

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The Bills have an abundance of ST talent, almost across the board. If you're going to keep an extra safety just for his special teams play, which is very possible, it is very difficult to keep an extra WR for his ST play, too. One of Wire and Aiken is very likely to be gone because neither offers a lot at all as a back-up at their respective positions. Byrne, for his part, I think was talking out of his ass again. I don't know of a lot of fans and I have never heard the coaches say that Wire and Aiken were THE TWO best ST players. They are both surely good, but Stamer and Burns and Haggan and a lot of other Bills played as big or a bigger role.

[UConn James]

What would be so terrible about keeping Wire AND Bowen? Again, if Wire is indeed the captain of the special teams, I just don't see the Bills cutting him. Same goes for Aiken, Haggan, Stamer, Burns, etc...

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Just like they would never let Sammy Morris go b/c he was the ST captain.

 

Oh.... wait.

 

This writer has also been fooled into the conclusion that Wire is *integral* to the ST unit. Wire had 10 ST tackles. Aiken had 24. Haggan was the ST tackle leader, and if Wire goes (and even if he doesn't) he should be named captain.

[Dawgg]

Coy Wire is one of the best guys on the Bills' roster.

 

He is also probaly the WORST player on the Bills' roster.

 

He should not be on an NFL roster, his time is up. With Bowen and Whitner in the fold this year, Wire is as good as gone.

 

What would be so terrible about keeping Wire AND Bowen? Again, if Wire is indeed the captain of the special teams, I just don't see the Bills cutting him. Same goes for Aiken, Haggan, Stamer, Burns, etc...

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[Dr. Trooth]

Please... Kelly the F&B Dog could write a better and more informed piece than this Connor Byrne.... Len Pasquarelli wannabee. At least Kelly's shows logic whether one agrees or not. This Byrne dude probably gets his fantasies from a lot of TBD posters... then writes it up as if if something new and fresh.

[Stl Bills]

I have to agree with Scribo about Bowen easily being able to replace Wire's special teams contributions this year.

 

I tend to disagree about Aiken. IMHO Sam Aiken is extremely underrated as a gunner and is more important to our STs unit. I remember him making a lot of tackles last year and he was usually always the first to the ballcarrier (exactly what you would ask for in your gunner). Sure he's no Tasker, but ol' Steve was the best STs gunner in the History of the Game.

 

Does anyone know if Peters played Special Teams last year after being inserted into the Starting Lineup? Thats another aspect that needs to be examined because he was one hell of a Wedge Buster and a great Wedge Blocker in our return game. I'm assuming and hoping that he doesn't see the field on Special Teams this year because I don't want to risk getting him hurt.

[apuszczalowski]

The problem is, do you have the room to keep players just because they are good STer's and let someone else go even if they are better at their position? Should Wire be kept on just to play special teams? Should Nance get cut or sent to the practice squad if he's a better receiver then Aiken just so Aiken can stay on for ST's?

 

I don't mind the special teams dropping a couple spots next year if it means an improvement in either the defence or offence. Did Having a top rated special teams really help much last year? The ST's will still be good even without Wire and Aiken, I wouldn't run around proclaiming doom and gloom just because they got cut.

[Matt in KC]

It seems like everytime Wire somes up, stevewin posts some facts and discredits him. (I think he may have some tyupe of email trigger set up for when someone types something positive about Wire.)

 

Here's a good one:

According to NFL.com play-by-play Wire had 3 (three) ST tackles last year and 3 penalties.

 

Not outstanding.

 

Coy Wire is not a ST demon.

 

End the myth.

 

At first I went with the flow, but after reading stevewin's numerous posts trying to debunk the Wire myth, I began to pay more attention, and believed him. I've seen Wire fly into the picture on special teams many times. He hustles. But, he's usually flying into the picture as / or just after the whistle blows.

 

I went the other way with Hagaan. I spent a fair amount of time comparing Crowell, Hagaan and Stamer when they joined the team, and originally thought Hagaan played the best. Then two years ago he distinctly started looking a bit worse than the other two. I decided Hagaan was going to be the first of them dropped by the Bills. But, paying more attention, I've seen that Hagaan's ST performances have been VERY good recently. Wire seems to somehow have gotten the ST rep Hagaan actually deserves.

 

Hagaan and Aiken are my top two ST keepers (I'm not counting McGee). I think Burns, Wire, Fasat Freddie and probably Wilson are gonners.

[Typical TBD Guy]

There are 2 universal truths in this forum that so far have held steady:

 

1. Every sports writer is an idiot.

2. Coy Wire sucks.

 

Let me try this a different way. The following is my most current roster prediction, which includes all of Wire, Burns, Stamer, Haggan, and Aiken. If you think any of these players get cut, tell me who is more deserving of the roster spot and why:

 

ROSTER:

 

K Rian Lindell

P Brian Moorman

LS Mike Schneck

 

QB JP Losman

QB Craig Nall

QB Kelly Holcomb

 

RB Willis McGahee

RB Anthony Thomas

RB Lionel Gates

 

FB Daimon Shelton

FB Joe Burns

 

WR Lee Evans

WR Peerless Price

WR Andre' Davis

WR Josh Reed

WR Sam Aiken

WR Roscoe Parrish

 

TE Robert Royal

TE Kevin Everett

TE Ryan Neufeld

 

T Mike Gandy

T Jason Peters

T Terrance Pennington

T Brad Butler

G Tutan Reyes

G Chris Villarial

G Raymond Preston

C Melvin Fowler

C Justin Geisinger

 

DE Aaron Schobel

DE Chris Kelsay

DE Jeff Posey

DE Ryan Denney

DT Larry Tripplett

DT John McCargo

DT Tim Anderson

DT Kyle Williams

 

WOLB Angelo Crowell

WOLB Keith Ellison

SOLB Takeo Spikes

SOLB Mario Haggan

MLB London Fletcher-Baker

MLB Courtney Watson

MLB Josh Stamer

 

CB Nate Clements

CB Terrence McGee

CB Ashton Youboty

CB Eric King

SS Donte Whitner

SS Matt Bowen

SS Coy Wire

FS Troy Vincent

FS Ko Simpson

 

PRACTICE SQUAD:

 

QB Craig Ochs

RB Fred Jackson

WR Martin Nance

TE Brad Cieslak

G Aaron Merz

DE Jason Hall

MLB John DiGiorgio

CB Eric Bassey

 

CUTS:

 

K Nick Setta

P Josh Brazen

QB Kliff Kingsbury

QB Tory Woodbury

RB Shaud Williams

FB Derrick Ming

FB Jon Goldsberry

WR Jonathan Smith

WR Chris Denney

WR George Wilson

T Aaron Gibson

T Greg Jerman

T Matt Morgan

G Dylan McFarland

G Jason Thomas

DE Joshua Cooper

DE Eric Powell

DE Mark Word

DE Ryan Neill

DT Lauvale Sape

DT Jason Jefferson

DT LaWaylon Brown

DT Tai Tupai

OLB Wendell Hunter

MLB Liam Ezekiel

CB Jabari Greer

CB Kiwaukee Thomas

CB James Bethea

FS Rob Lee

FS Jim Leonhard

FS Rashad Baker

[Dawgg]

Not bad.

 

The roster you propose leaves the team very thin at corner behind the starters Clements and McGee, especially considering one of them is a first year player and the other is a second year player. My guess is the team keeps another corner, perhaps Greer.

 

Keeping 3 strong safeties just doesn't make sense. You can plug Bowen in Wire's spot and not have much of a drop-off in special teams. I also hope the team doesn't cut ties with Shaud Williams. He improved with each game and got some great exposure last year as the 3rd down back.

 

 

  There are 2 universal truths in this forum that so far have held steady:

 

1. Every sports writer is an idiot.

2. Coy Wire sucks.

 

Let me try this a different way. The following is my most current roster prediction, which includes all of Wire, Burns, Stamer, Haggan, and Aiken. If you think any of these players get cut, tell me who is more deserving of the roster spot and why:

 

ROSTER:

 

K Rian Lindell

P Brian Moorman

LS Mike Schneck

 

QB JP Losman

QB Craig Nall

QB Kelly Holcomb

 

RB Willis McGahee

RB Anthony Thomas

RB Lionel Gates

 

FB Daimon Shelton

FB Joe Burns

 

WR Lee Evans

WR Peerless Price

WR Andre' Davis

WR Josh Reed

WR Sam Aiken

WR Roscoe Parrish

 

TE Robert Royal

TE Kevin Everett

TE Ryan Neufeld

 

T Mike Gandy

T Jason Peters

T Terrance Pennington

T Brad Butler

G Tutan Reyes

G Chris Villarial

G Raymond Preston     

C Melvin Fowler

C Justin Geisinger

 

DE Aaron Schobel

DE Chris Kelsay

DE Jeff Posey

DE Ryan Denney

DT Larry Tripplett

DT John McCargo

DT Tim Anderson

DT Kyle Williams

 

WOLB Angelo Crowell

WOLB Keith Ellison

SOLB Takeo Spikes

SOLB Mario Haggan   

MLB London Fletcher-Baker

MLB Courtney Watson

MLB Josh Stamer

 

CB Nate Clements

CB Terrence McGee

CB Ashton Youboty

CB Eric King

SS Donte Whitner

SS Matt Bowen

SS Coy Wire

FS Troy Vincent

FS Ko Simpson

 

PRACTICE SQUAD:

 

QB Craig Ochs

RB Fred Jackson 

WR Martin Nance

TE Brad Cieslak

G Aaron Merz

DE Jason Hall

MLB John DiGiorgio

CB Eric Bassey

 

CUTS:

 

K Nick Setta

P Josh Brazen

QB Kliff Kingsbury

QB Tory Woodbury

RB Shaud Williams

FB Derrick Ming

FB Jon Goldsberry

WR Jonathan Smith

WR Chris Denney

WR George Wilson

T Aaron Gibson

T Greg Jerman

T Matt Morgan

G Dylan McFarland

G Jason Thomas

DE Joshua Cooper

DE Eric Powell

DE Mark Word

DE Ryan Neill

DT Lauvale Sape

DT Jason Jefferson

DT LaWaylon Brown

DT Tai Tupai

OLB Wendell Hunter

MLB Liam Ezekiel

CB Jabari Greer

CB Kiwaukee Thomas

CB James Bethea

FS Rob Lee

FS Jim Leonhard

FS Rashad Baker

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[Matt in KC]

I can't help but notice Posey was neither retained nor cut.

 

Also, I like Hagaan for ST, but having just Spikes and Hagaan on the strong side is a bit thin. I thought last year Hagaan was listed as backup weak-side LB, but didn't play when Spikes went down.... You're moving both to the other side?

 

I think Posey will do well this year. He is a cut above any of our backup linebackers and deserves to keep the roster spot, even if it were to mean

Hagaan gets cut. (I would find someone else to cut, however.)

[eSJayDee]

The problem is, do you have the room to keep players just because they are good STer's and let someone else go even if they are better at their position?

 

You have 11 players on offense and 11 on defense. You're basically required to carry a few ST specialists (K, P, LS). You need a few extra players for situational substitutions (extra TEs, WR, DB, pass rusher, etc); let's say 10 there. You also need players that serve primarily as truly backup/replacements (QB, interior line, RB, LB). I contend that these 'replacements', even if they aren't accounted for in the situational 'roster', can be filled w/ about 10 players.

 

That leaves roughly 10 roster spots 'free', of which pperhaps 5 will be active on any given game, to do w/ as you please. I would think if the option is between a superlative ST player that will see action several plays every game & likely will produce improved results or a borderline substitute that you'd prefer to be anchored to the bench, you choose the ST contributor.

 

So yes, I think it is justified to keep perhaps 5 players who are kept primarily for their ST contributions.

 

Bear in mind, back in 'the day' when Levy was coach when rosters were even smaller (although situational substitutions weren't as predominant), Tasker & Pike were kept for MANY years exclusively for their ST contributions & I'm sure several players were kept PRIMARILY cuz of them rather than perhaps more talented players at their 'real' positions.

[stevewin]

Just like they would never let Sammy Morris go b/c he was the ST captain.

 

Oh.... wait.

 

This writer has also been fooled into the conclusion that Wire is *integral* to the ST unit. Wire had 10 ST tackles. Aiken had 24.

 

Thank you for saying that and saving me the need to post it Actually - according to his bio he only had 9 ST tackles last year - and based on NFL.com PBP it would appear he was primary on only 3 of them.

 

Haggan was the ST tackle leader, and if Wire goes (and even if he doesn't) he should be named captain.

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There seems to be this widely held belief that Wire has been this perennial ST captain - when in fact I'm not sure he ever officially held the title for even a season.

 

According to the BB.com Wire bio, in 2004 Wire "Served as the special teams captain for a majority of the season" (note that Stamer's bio for 2004 says he "was named special teams captain and had two tackles vs. NYJ (11/7)…") - there is no other mention of Wire being captain for any other year. I can find no other official mention of him as ST captain at any other time.

 

The fact is Wire has never led the team in ST tackles. The year before last he wasn't even (minimally) in the top 4 on the team. This year he also wasn't close to being among the highest. As astutely mentioned above - if you ever actually spent the time and tried to watch Wire on STs what you mostly see (on the times he hasn't completely taken himself out of the play) is him flying into the play, or past the play, or onto the pile after the runner is already stopped/down. The same craptitude that defines his SS 'play'. Can anyone remember Wire ever making a great or even good open field tackle on coverage? I can't. The whole ST demon thing is completely overblown and erroneous - another chapter in the CWAC mythology.

 

CW < RJ

[Typical TBD Guy]

I can't help but notice Posey was neither retained nor cut.

 

Also, I like Hagaan for ST, but having just Spikes and Hagaan on the strong side is a bit thin.  I thought last year Hagaan was listed as backup weak-side LB, but didn't play when Spikes went down....  You're moving both to the other side?

 

I think Posey will do well this year.  He is a cut above any of our backup linebackers and deserves to keep the roster spot, even if it were to mean

Hagaan gets cut.  (I would find someone else to cut, however.)

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I have Posey listed as backup DE. That's probably why you missed him.

 

Throughout Haggan's career, he's played at all 3 LB positions. While I think he could still get away with this in the new Tampa-style D, physically his best fit is probably at strong side.

 

I moved Spikes to the strong side because Crowell would be more useful at weak, and I'm confident Spikes can excel on either side. I suspect the coaches will do the same by mid-August, but like with everything I've posted so far...it's only my opinion and I could be wrong.

 

While I don't agree that Posey is "a cut above any of our backup LB's," I'll concede that Posey wasn't sent packing with Milloy for a reason - because the coaches still think he can serve a purpose under the new D. I'm wondering if that purpose is at the 4th DE spot? If Posey packs on a few more lbs, I think it just might work.

[Typical TBD Guy]

Thank you for saying that and saving me the need to post it      Actually - according to his bio he only had 9 ST tackles last year - and based on NFL.com PBP it would appear he was primary on only 3 of them.

There seems to be this widely held belief that Wire has been this perennial ST captain - when in fact I'm not sure he ever officially held the title for even a season.

 

According to the BB.com Wire bio, in 2004 Wire "Served as the special teams captain for a majority of the season" (note that Stamer's bio for 2004 says he "was named special teams captain and had two tackles vs. NYJ (11/7)…") - there is no other mention of Wire being captain for any other year.  I can find no other official mention of him as ST captain at any other time.

 

The fact is Wire has never led the team in ST tackles. The year before last he wasn't even (minimally) in the top 4 on the team.  This year he also wasn't close to being among the highest.   As astutely mentioned above - if you ever actually spent the time and tried to watch Wire on STs what you mostly see (on the times he hasn't completely taken himself out of the play) is him flying into the play, or past the play, or onto the pile after the runner is already stopped/down.  The same craptitude that defines his SS 'play'.  Can anyone remember Wire ever making a great or even good open field tackle on coverage?  I can't.   The whole ST demon thing is completely overblown and erroneous  - another chapter in the CWAC mythology.

 

CW < RJ

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Keep in mind that it was a different Bills administration who was willing to cut Morris.

 

As for Wire, I'm not saying you're wrong about him, stevewin. I'm just saying that you COULD be wrong. This board has been proclaiming Wire to be good as gone for the past 3 offseasons, and each time Wire still made the team. He's not a very good safety, so wouldn't it be reasonable to assume he's making it because of ST play?