What the Bills need the most...

[Frez]

A QB!

[Adam]

A QB! 

723377[/snapback]

Actually, they need better production from the offensive and defensive lines, and a sense of direction.

 

I think we will see improvement in all of those categories this year

[cantankerous]

The Bills need a lot of things.

[Dibs]

A QB! 

723377[/snapback]

Yep....we sure do.

I totally agree with everyone wanting strong lines. Strong lines make the defence solid & the skills players better. A team without good lines will be hard pressed to make the superbowl....however.

When you look at who gets to the Superbowl you find Probowl QBs.

Rothlisberger...Future Probowler

Hasslebeck......Probowler

Brady(x3).......Future HOFer

McNabb...........Probowler

Delhomme......Probowler

Gannon...........MVP

Johnson..........Probowler(but average)

Warner(x2).....MVP

Kerry Collins...Probowler(but average)

Dilfer..............Probowler(but average)

McNair............MVP

Elway(x5).......HOFer

Chandler........Probowler(but average)

Favre(x2).......Future HOFer, MVP

Bledsoe..........Probowler

Aikman(x3).....HOFer

O'Donnell........Probowler

Young.............HOFer, MVP

Humphries......NO PROBOWLS

Kelly(x4).........HOFer

Rypien............Probowler(but average)

Hostetler.........Probowler(but average)

Montana(x4)....HOFer, MVP

That is every Superbowl appearing QB in the last 17 years.

As you can see, unless we have a QB that can at least get to a probowl....preferably one that is a legitimate probowler....we will have very little chance of making the Superbowl. A run-of-the-mill QB just will not get the job done.

[Pyrite Gal]

Yep....we sure do.

I totally agree with everyone wanting strong lines.  Strong lines make the defence solid & the skills players better.  A team without good lines will be hard pressed to make the superbowl....however. 

When you look at who gets to the Superbowl you find Probowl QBs.

Rothlisberger...Future Probowler

Hasslebeck......Probowler

Brady(x3).......Future HOFer

McNabb...........Probowler

Delhomme......Probowler

Gannon...........MVP

Johnson..........Probowler(but average)

Warner(x2).....MVP

Kerry Collins...Probowler(but average)

Dilfer..............Probowler(but average)

McNair............MVP

Elway(x5).......HOFer

Chandler........Probowler(but average)

Favre(x2).......Future HOFer, MVP

Bledsoe..........Probowler

Aikman(x3).....HOFer

O'Donnell........Probowler

Young.............HOFer, MVP

Humphries......NO PROBOWLS

Kelly(x4).........HOFer

Rypien............Probowler(but average)

Hostetler.........Probowler(but average)

Montana(x4)....HOFer, MVP

That is every Superbowl appearing QB in the last 17 years.

As you can see, unless we have a QB that can at least get to a probowl....preferably one that is a legitimate probowler....we will have very little chance of making the Superbowl.  A run-of-the-mill QB just will not get the job done.

723498[/snapback]

 

 

The list is interesting because while you do cherry pick out some of the best QBs ever, the list does not provide much guidance to a team on the critical question as to whwthwe they should look to find this Pro Bowl through a 1st round draft pick (many of those you selected), through a later pick (Brady and even Montana), through UDFA (Delhomme) or even the waiver wire (I know Bledsoe was on it after his SB appearance and probably somebody was on it before).

 

To some extent while a great QB makes it to the Pro Bowl or wins the SB, it is also the case that being with a SB capable winning team like the D oriented Ravens brings fame and greatness to a QB clearly capable of losing in lot of situations,

 

Along this line of thinking I feel quite comfortable with the Bills uncertainty at QB right now. While I do not think that any of these three is more likely than not to be an adequate (certainly not a good or great) QB in of themselves. I think that all provide a real (thouigh small in Nall's case) possibility of being the QB that we want and need.

 

The key as I see is not to hope against hope that one of these QBs is extraordinary, but that the Bills braintrust proves to be good at assessing which of these QBs can do the best job they can do and be adequate, goor or even great (if lightning strikes the same non-metallic place twice or gets real cold down below).

 

If the braintrust is good at not wasting time on a QB who is not reafy to do the job (as we did when TD selected Losman who could have profited from some more bench, mop-up, and real games when we are out of the hunt time rather than being selected for other reasons.

 

JP may develop enough to produce with the great talent that made him a reasonable 1st round choice, OR the Bills O may be able to imitate the St. L model and short passing vet KH can be productive, OR Nall may prove to have learned a lot watching and mopping up for Favre.

 

If Fairchild, Jauron, and Marv (Modrak) prove to be good at judging talent, designing the O, andmaking good choice, I think the odds are we will be fine at QB this year. A BIF if but certainly doable/

[Dante]

A Owner!

[Mikie2times]

Armpit hair

[Dibs]

The list is interesting because while you do cherry pick out some of the best QBs ever, the list does not provide much guidance to a team on the critical question as to whwthwe they should look to find this Pro Bowl through a 1st round draft pick (many of those you selected), through a later pick (Brady and even Montana), through UDFA (Delhomme) or even the waiver wire (I know Bledsoe was on it after his SB appearance and probably somebody was on it before).

 

To some extent while a great QB makes it to the Pro Bowl or wins the SB, it is also the case that being with a SB capable winning team like the D oriented Ravens brings fame and greatness to a QB clearly capable of losing in lot of situations,

 

Along this line of thinking I feel quite comfortable with the Bills uncertainty at QB right now. While I do not think that any of these three is more likely than not to be an adequate (certainly not a good or great) QB in of themselves.  I think that all provide a real (thouigh small in Nall's case) possibility of being the QB that we want and need.

 

The key as I see is not to hope against hope that one of these QBs is extraordinary, but that the Bills braintrust proves to be good at assessing which of these QBs can do the best job they can do and be adequate, goor or even great (if lightning strikes the same non-metallic place twice or gets real cold down below).

 

If the braintrust is good at not wasting time on a QB who is not reafy to do the job (as we did when TD selected Losman who could have profited from some more bench, mop-up, and real games when we are out of the hunt time rather than being selected for other reasons.

 

JP may develop enough to produce with the great talent that made him a reasonable 1st round choice, OR the Bills O may be able to imitate the St. L model and short passing vet KH can be productive, OR Nall may prove to have learned a lot watching and mopping up for Favre.

 

If Fairchild, Jauron, and Marv (Modrak) prove to be good at judging talent, designing the O, andmaking good choice, I think the odds are we will be fine at QB this year.  A  BIF if but certainly doable/

723507[/snapback]

My list was in response to the question...."What the Bills need the most..." I didn't mean that none of the QBs on our roster could not become a probowl caliber QB....simply that to become a legitimate superbowl contender, we need a QB of probowl caliber.

 

I did not however "cherry pick" anybody. That list is each & every QB to start in the last 17 superbowls. The only reason for the list is to back up my point that...

What the Bills need the most....is a probowl level QB.

As the list clearly shows....A run-of-the-mill QB just will not get the job done.

 

I'm hoping we don't have to figure out how to aquire the probowl type QB....I'm hoping one of the 3 on the roster is going to develop into that vital player. If not....it's back to the drawing board isn't it?

[SACTOBILLSFAN]

to score more points than the opposition in ten or eleven games?

[Mikie2times]

The list is interesting because while you do cherry pick out some of the best QBs ever, the list does not provide much guidance to a team on the critical question as to whwthwe they should look to find this Pro Bowl through a 1st round draft pick (many of those you selected), through a later pick (Brady and even Montana), through UDFA (Delhomme) or even the waiver wire (I know Bledsoe was on it after his SB appearance and probably somebody was on it before).

 

To some extent while a great QB makes it to the Pro Bowl or wins the SB, it is also the case that being with a SB capable winning team like the D oriented Ravens brings fame and greatness to a QB clearly capable of losing in lot of situations,

 

Along this line of thinking I feel quite comfortable with the Bills uncertainty at QB right now. While I do not think that any of these three is more likely than not to be an adequate (certainly not a good or great) QB in of themselves.  I think that all provide a real (thouigh small in Nall's case) possibility of being the QB that we want and need.

 

The key as I see is not to hope against hope that one of these QBs is extraordinary, but that the Bills braintrust proves to be good at assessing which of these QBs can do the best job they can do and be adequate, goor or even great (if lightning strikes the same non-metallic place twice or gets real cold down below).

 

If the braintrust is good at not wasting time on a QB who is not reafy to do the job (as we did when TD selected Losman who could have profited from some more bench, mop-up, and real games when we are out of the hunt time rather than being selected for other reasons.

 

JP may develop enough to produce with the great talent that made him a reasonable 1st round choice, OR the Bills O may be able to imitate the St. L model and short passing vet KH can be productive, OR Nall may prove to have learned a lot watching and mopping up for Favre.

 

If Fairchild, Jauron, and Marv (Modrak) prove to be good at judging talent, designing the O, andmaking good choice, I think the odds are we will be fine at QB this year.  A  BIF if but certainly doable/

723507[/snapback]

It seems like in most posts you go to great lengths to explain your point, and try to come to a logical conclusion. I guess I just don't understand a lot of the logic you use. It seems like you base your assumptions off isolated examples rather then the overwhelming majority of events. This response is a perfect example. You have often cited the Ravens Super Bowl run in an attempt to un glorify the QB position, when in reality the overwhelming evidence points toward needing a high tier QB to win the super bowl.

 

Is it possible to win the Super Bowl with an average QB?

Yes

 

Is it likely?

Hell no.

 

Dibs didn't cherry pick the best QB's ever, he just picked the QB's of teams that have won or gone to the Super Bowl. It's not a coincidence that most those teams had pro bowl caliber QB's.

[Acantha]

It's not a coincidence that most those teams had pro bowl caliber QB's.

723520[/snapback]

I think it has a lot more to do with just the QB's. Are all the QB's on that list ProBowl talent by themselves? Absolutely not. They have strong lines, coaches, rb's, recievers, and/or gameplans.

 

The players around a QB can make him a pro bowler just like he can make them probowlers. The Bills don't need a great QB. They need a great team.

[Bill from NYC]

Dibs didn't cherry pick the best QB's ever, he just picked the QB's of teams that have won or gone to the Super Bowl. It's not a coincidence that most those teams had pro bowl caliber QB's.

723520[/snapback]

 

This is an interesting topic Mike.

 

I noticed that the ever so loathed Bledsoe is on the list as a probowl qb (which is true, and the HOF is certainly not out of the question). Also on this list are, Young, Favre, and Elway.

Although I appreciate the play of Bledsoe more than most on TSW, I am the very first to admit that he needs WAY more help than the guys I listed above.

Elway is a great example of a guy who could make things happen whether running, or passing short or long. Unlike Drew, he could get out of trouble and make a play on a consistent basis.

However, many others on that list (imo) owe their probowl status (Rypien, Delhomme, Hostetler, Dilfer, etc.) to their supporting cast more than the actual ability they possess.

 

I'm not sure, but I think that this was what PG was getting at.

[Dibs]

This is an interesting topic Mike.

 

I noticed that the ever so loathed Bledsoe is on the list as a probowl qb (which is true, and the HOF is certainly not out of the question). Also on this list are, Young, Favre, and Elway.

Although I appreciate the play of Bledsoe more than most on TSW, I am the very first to admit that he needs WAY more help than the guys I listed above.

Elway is a great example of a guy who could make things happen whether running, or passing short or long. Unlike Drew, he could get out of trouble and make a play on a consistent basis.

However, many others on that list (imo) owe their probowl status (Rypien, Delhomme, Hostetler, Dilfer, etc.) to their supporting cast more than the actual ability they possess.

 

I'm not sure, but I think that this was what PG was getting at. 

723531[/snapback]

I understand what you are saying & I had that in mind when I gave my 'QB' response. I don't think we need a 'great' QB or even a 'very good' QB.....just a 'good' one will do....one that with the right supporting cast can be a probowler. That pretty much means above average. There are a tonne of QBs who simply never get the job done(no matter what the supporting cast). They might last 4, 7, 10 years in the league & year after year do not perform. Aaron Brooks, Tim Couch, Kyle Boller, Jay Fiedler, Joey Harrington, Rob Johnson, etc, etc, etc.

If we end up with a QB like one of these & we have a top team, it won't make any difference because they won't take you to a superbowl......hang on a minute.....we did have a top team & one of them.

[Captain Hindsight]

The Bills do have a pro bowl calibur quaterback on their roster. JP ( I believe) has proved that he can play in this league. Yes his ifrst 4 games were awful, but Peyton manning went 3-13 his first year. Eli lost his first 6 (i think) Carson Palmer played poorly the first half of his first year as a starter. All those Quaterbacks are top tier or almost top tier qbs. Phillip Rivers is going to struggle this year. JP went 1 and 7 right? Texans being the one win. he also beat kansas city (playoff team) Miami(near playoff team) (shoulda won defense sucked that game) that makes him 3 and 7 while being jerked around by Mularky and having most of the team (Moulds, Adams Clements Gray) quit on the team (Mularky fought to save his job the quit and ran off to miami )(kitty) Jp is a hard worker and he learned a big lesson last season one that im sure he will learn from. Now he is fighting to WIN the job (which i believe he will) and he will be better for it. it will take time but dont write him off yet. Oh and BTW if big ben wasnt lucky enogh to be put into a great situation no one would be this upset about JP

[Pyrite Gal]

My list was in response to the question...."What the Bills need the most..."  I didn't mean that none of the QBs on our roster could not become a probowl caliber QB....simply that to become a legitimate superbowl contender, we need a QB of probowl caliber.

 

I did not however "cherry pick" anybody.  That list is each & every QB to start in the last 17 superbowls.  The only reason for the list is to back up my point that...

What the Bills need the most....is a probowl level QB.

As the list clearly shows....A run-of-the-mill QB just will not get the job done.

 

I'm hoping we don't have to figure out how to aquire the probowl type QB....I'm hoping one of the 3 on the roster is going to develop into that vital player.  If not....it's back to the drawing board isn't it?

723517[/snapback]

 

I guess I missed the import of your point as well, O guess becaise a cursory examination of your list revealed by your own admission so many average QBs. Part of the reason why these average QBs got acknowledged with the HOF honor because pf tjeor so;id lines and other high quality players on their teams.

 

I agree with the point that I have harped on a couple of examples, but this is not to argue that one can win it all with an average or worse QB (obviously one would prefer a better QB than a worse one( but simply as as a response to those who have claimed the ONLY way to win it all is with a great QB, when the facts show that most SB teams do have great QB, but a pretty good number do not. Their QBs are merely average, but because their braintrusts have built a good team aroung them they win it all and in fact the QB gets a Pro Bowl nod.

 

I agree with you that I suspect one of our 3 QBs can prove to be adequate enough to take a good team with to the playoffs.

 

I think the facts you provide indicate a good QB is a good thing, but an average QB will do as well.

[Dibs]

....I think the facts you provide indicate a good QB is a good thing, but an average QB will do as well.

723821[/snapback]

....and....

a great QB is awesome(12 of the last 17 superbowls were won with HOFers, future HOFers or MVPs...obviously not including Rothlisberger)

....and....

a bad QB is just not good enough period.

It is this last bit that I think is really important to team building. There is no point having a strong team if your QB is a dud.

I'm really hoping JP/Nall/Holcomb pan out because there would be nothing worse in 3 years time having a superbowl caliber team with a rookie QB.

Mind you, we could always grab a McNair type QB if that happens ala the Ravens this off-seasons.

Dibs's prediction: The Ravens will have a great year now that they actually have more than a dud at QB.

[OCinBuffalo]

....and....

a great QB is awesome(12 of the last 17 superbowls were won with HOFers, future HOFers or MVPs...obviously not including Rothlisberger)

....and....

a bad QB is just not good enough period.

It is this last bit that I think is really important to team building.  There is no point having a strong team if your QB is a dud. 

I'm really hoping JP/Nall/Holcomb pan out because there would be nothing worse in 3 years time having a superbowl caliber team with a rookie QB.

Mind you, we could always grab a McNair type QB if that happens ala the Ravens this off-seasons.

Dibs's prediction: The Ravens will have a great year now that they actually have more than a dud at QB.

723833[/snapback]

 

The last thing I want is to pile on here with the logic thing but has anyone considered how the super bowl appearances factor into after the fact pro-bowl appearances? Jeff Hostetler would never have made a pro bowl appearance withoug being on the team(more accurately the coaching staff) that beat us in 90, and he didn't get there until 94 with the raiders - questionable at best. He was nowhere near the best QB in the league, ever. Yet he plays for a high profile team and whamo, pro-bowl.

 

If you don't get it, reverse the logic: Kelley went to the pro-bowl in 90,91,92 and all super bowl appearances. He did not go in 93, but we went to the SB. Conversely, Marino went in 91,92, 94 and 95 with 0 super bowl appearances. Is the point that somehow the Dolphins got hosed out of the Super Bowl, or is it that teams win games not QBs?

 

I can cite more examples at will but,(pyrite gal has a point here, as usual, it's just that s/he makes it in a way no one understands - sorry pyrite) pro bowl appearances at QB have a lot more to do with John Madden telling us how good a guy is after his team is up by 20 pts in the SB than an actual day in and day out performer, and why not? This way Madden is never wrong! Do I need to invoke memories of the sweat-meter?

 

Would anyone honestly turn Peyton Manning away from our team if by some magic we had an opportunity to start him? Hey, he doesn't have any SB appearances, so I gues the answer is yes? Better yet, how many of you think he is going to the pro-bowl this year? I say he has no chance, based on the media-fed perception we now have that he is a "choker". Would that stop anyone here from picking him for their fantasy team?

 

Kool-aid, hot pockets, rack it, Flamer in Transit, Ed is gay, LA has herpes, retatta, VA is short, pyrite gal is annoying, Wonderlic, Barbara Streisand, blah blah blah! Ok it's Monday and I gotta get to work, in my american car, wait, I don't have a car...but...but...but here's a picture of peter pan, and by the way this post is boring, but I'm just being a realist.

If you don't get that check out this board some more.

 

Obviously, I need the season to start soon. "I'm not broken but you can see the cracks"

 

GO BILLS!!!

[Dibs]

The last thing I want is to pile on here with the logic thing but has anyone considered how the super bowl appearances factor into after the fact pro-bowl appearances? Jeff Hostetler would never have made a pro bowl appearance withoug being on the team(more accurately the coaching staff) that beat us in 90, and he didn't get there until 94 with the raiders - questionable at best. He was nowhere near the best QB in the league, ever. Yet he plays for a high profile team and whamo, pro-bowl.

 

If you don't get it, reverse the logic: Kelley went to the pro-bowl in 90,91,92 and all super bowl appearances. He did not go in 93, but we went to the SB. Conversely, Marino went in 91,92, 94 and 95 with 0 super bowl appearances. Is the point that somehow the Dolphins got hosed out of the Super Bowl, or is it that teams win games not QBs?

 

I can cite more examples at will but,(pyrite gal has a point here, as usual, it's just that s/he makes it in a way no one understands - sorry pyrite) pro bowl appearances at QB have a lot more to do with John Madden telling us how good a guy is after his team is up by 20 pts in the SB than an actual day in and day out performer, and why not? This way Madden is never wrong! Do I need to invoke memories of the sweat-meter?

 

Would anyone honestly turn Peyton Manning away from our team if by some magic we had an opportunity to start him? Hey, he doesn't have any SB appearances, so I gues the answer is yes? Better yet, how many of you think he is going to the pro-bowl this year? I say he has no chance, based on the media-fed perception we now have that he is a "choker". Would that stop anyone here from picking him for their fantasy team?

 

Kool-aid, hot pockets, rack it, Flamer in Transit, Ed is gay, LA has herpes, retatta, VA is short, pyrite gal is annoying, Wonderlic, Barbara Streisand, blah blah blah! Ok it's Monday and I gotta get to work, in my american car, wait, I don't have a car...but...but...but here's a picture of peter pan, and by the way this post is boring, but I'm just being a realist.

If you don't get that check out this board some more.

 

Obviously, I need the season to start soon. "I'm not broken but you can see the cracks"

 

GO BILLS!!!

723842[/snapback]

 

.....a bad QB is just not good enough period.

I agree(again) that if one has a strong team, one only needs a decent QB. At this point we have not produced a decent QB(though one may develop).

 

One thing I didn't look at in my first list was who WINS a superbowl. My list focused on who gets to the Superbowl.

 

13 of the last 18 superbowls were won with HOFers, future HOFers or MVPs

(Rothlisberger may turn into #14, who knows)

 

I don't want us to be just competative.

I don't want us to be just superbowl runner-ups.

I want the Bills to WIN the superbowl.

 

13 of the last 18!!!!

 

Having a future HOFer or MVP QB is not essential to winning the big one....just extremely useful.

[stinky finger]

The Bills do have a pro bowl calibur quaterback on their roster. JP ( I believe) has proved that he can play in this league.

723810[/snapback]

Ummmmm......what the!?!??!

[Bill from NYC]

.....a bad QB is just not good enough period.

I agree(again) that if one has a strong team, one only needs a decent QB.  At this point we have not produced a decent QB(though one may develop).

 

One thing I didn't look at in my first list was who WINS a superbowl.  My list focused on who gets to the Superbowl.

 

13 of the last 18 superbowls were won with HOFers, future HOFers or MVPs

(Rothlisberger may turn into #14, who knows)

 

I don't want us to be just competative.

I don't want us to be just superbowl runner-ups.

I want the Bills to WIN the superbowl.

 

13 of the last 18!!!!

 

Having a future HOFer or MVP QB is not essential to winning the big one....just extremely useful.

723868[/snapback]

 

Do you remember Ken Stabler? He won a superbowl and was a 4 time probowl qb. Check out his stats. He threw for more interceptions than TDs.

 

One could look at his skill set (although it was diminished by injuries) and make a case that he was not a great qb. The thing is, he was the perfect fit for the Raiders, who had perhaps the best OL of all time (certainly in the top 5), and some great "skill players" to boot. His attitude, brains and personality also entered into the equation of how good he was.

 

My point (and I think we agree) is that many seem to place too much emphasis on the QB position. Bradshaw won 4 superbowls at qb for the Steelers, and I give him a ton of credit, but look at the other players on that team on both sides of the ball.

 

The best qb in the world is no good when he is laying on his a$$, bleeding and injured.