All of you OL experts out there

[Matt in KC]

Gandy may not be great, but he's a good value, given his salary. I would be fine with us shelling out top dollar for a pro-bowl LT after we finish putting the other pieces in place.

 

Does anyone remember the website that reports how many penalties and sacks O-line players gave up? I can't find it....

[apuszczalowski]

Just being in the top half does not really make you above average.

 

There are top tier, above average, average, below average, and bad. so roughly figuring that out with number from 1-32 that could be 1-5 Top Tier, 6-10 Above Average, 11-22 Average, 23-27 below average, and 28-32 bad

 

Gandy would be in the average-above average categories which is still good. having a top tier left tackle doesn't make you a SB champion (although it doesn't hurt either) teams have one with someone who is just good at that position, it all depends on the line as a whole and how the play together. You have to think of the lines as one player, they all need to be good and work together to be great.

[Typical TBD Guy]

I'd like to know if anyone can prove me wrong.

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Posts 4, 15, 16, and 20 nailed it (IMO). I was once just like you, eball. From the mid-90's up until 2005, I had the same delusions of OL grandeur every preseason. Such expectations only make the reality of the season that much more painful. Gandy is a decent journeyman LT, and nothing more. I suspect you'll come to realize this by December after the additions of Reyes and Fowler yield only marginal improvement on the left side of the line.

[Dibs]

Just being in the top half does not really make you above average.

 

There are top tier, above average, average, below average, and bad. so roughly figuring that out with number from 1-32 that could be 1-5 Top Tier, 6-10 Above Average, 11-22 Average, 23-27 below average, and 28-32 bad

 

Gandy would be in the average-above average categories which is still good. having a top tier left tackle doesn't make you a SB champion (although it doesn't hurt either) teams have one with someone who is just good at that position, it all depends on the line as a whole and how the play together. You have to think of the lines as one player, they all need to be good and work together to be great.

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average-above average???

I think the crux of this thread was a little off target. Initially(& still in some parts of the media) quite a few people were clearly putting Gandy into the 'bad' category(along with Bennie). This rankled many on TBD(myself included) since he is obviously not.

To put him as possibly top 10 though is just as far fetched. IMO he would fall into the 'average' category....probably the lower end of it. Even possibly into the 'below average' category. If he was ranked #23, he would need to be better than 9 other LTs. That list is probably the easier & more pertinent one to do if we wish to grade how good he really is.

Can anyone list 9 starting LTs that Gandy is (clearly) better than?

[Nanker]

I think Jason Peters will be a premier RT in this league.

I project he's going to be the next Bills OLineman to get to the Pro Bowl.

[Sen. John Blutarsky]

I've never bashed Gandy, but I'll give you 18 better LTs: Jonathan Ogden, Levi Jones, Matt Lepsis, Tarik Glenn, Willie Roaf, Barry Sims, Marvel Smith, Chris Samuels, Orlando Pace, Walter Jones, Jonas Jennings, Artis Hicks, Luke Petitgout, Bryant McKinnie, Jeff Backus, John Tait, Travelle Wharton, and Leonard Davis.

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I'd argue with Jennings, Petitgout, McKinnie, Hicks, Sims, and Davis on merit. Jennings is frequently broken and the others aren't anything special. Artis Hicks was a guard for Philly and Barry Sims has usually been a guard as well.

 

I'd probably add Tra Thomas as better than Gandy.

 

Ogden is better by reputation but he's not what he was, Schobel ate him up 2 years ago.

 

What Gandy is that these other guys aren't is cheaper and don't underestimate the value of that. If he's the 13th best LT in the NFL and getting paid less than the 16th best tackle we're getting a good value. I'm not exactly sure where Gandy falls into this list but I know for absolute sure that he makes less than Ogden, Levi Jones, Glenn, Tra Thomas, Walter Jones, Roaf, Jennings, Petitgout, McKinnie, Backus, Pace, Samuels, Smith, Tait, and Davis. I'm not sure about Wharton, Lepsis, or Hicks. So at worst he's the 16th highest paid LT in the NFL and it's very likely that he's around the low 20's. He also makes less than Mike Williams and Robert Gallery who are RT's but were drafted to be LT's. he also makes less than D'Brickashaw Ferguson.

 

When you pine for a "top" LT ask yourself if they are that good why did McNabb, Boller, Kurt Warner, Marc Bulger (and every other Rams QB for that matter), Jeff Garcia, Mark Brunell, Patrick Ramsey etc. all get hurt playing behind at least one of these men? The elite of LT's is maybe 2 deep Tarik Glenn and Walter Jones, noone gets to Manning or Hasselbeck from that side. everyone else is a degree of above average yet still get paid more than 5mil per. Is it worth it?

[Typical TBD Guy]

Ogden is better by reputation but he's not what he was, Schobel ate him up 2 years ago.

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Actually, I think Ogden was playing injured for that game (though I still agree with you that he's been in decline recently).

[Bill from NYC]

I'd argue with Jennings, Petitgout, McKinnie, Hicks, Sims, and Davis on merit.  Jennings is frequently broken and the others aren't anything special.  Artis Hicks was a guard for Philly and Barry Sims has usually been a guard as well.

 

I'd probably add Tra Thomas as better than Gandy.

 

Ogden is better by reputation but he's not what he was, Schobel ate him up 2 years ago.

 

What Gandy is that these other guys aren't is cheaper and don't underestimate the value of that.  If he's the 13th best LT in the NFL and getting paid less than the 16th best tackle we're getting a good value.  I'm not exactly sure where Gandy falls into this list but I know for absolute sure that he makes less than Ogden, Levi Jones, Glenn, Tra Thomas, Walter Jones, Roaf, Jennings, Petitgout, McKinnie, Backus, Pace, Samuels, Smith, Tait, and Davis.  I'm not sure about Wharton, Lepsis, or Hicks.  So at worst he's the 16th highest paid LT in the NFL and it's very likely that he's around the low 20's.  He also makes less than Mike Williams and Robert Gallery who are RT's but were drafted to be LT's.  he also makes less than D'Brickashaw Ferguson.

 

When you pine for a "top" LT ask yourself if they are that good why did McNabb, Boller, Kurt Warner, Marc Bulger (and every other Rams QB for that matter), Jeff Garcia, Mark Brunell, Patrick Ramsey etc. all get hurt playing behind at least one of these men?  The elite of LT's is maybe 2 deep Tarik Glenn and Walter Jones, noone gets to Manning or Hasselbeck from that side.  everyone else is a degree of above average yet still get paid more than 5mil per.  Is it worth it?

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Lepsis

 

You think that Orlando Pace and Willie Roaf are a "degree above average?" Not even close imo.

 

I understand the point that you are trying to make, that Gandy is a bargain of sorts. A case could be made that you are correct. This still begs the question......don't you, after a decade of poor blocking, want more at our LT position than a durable, average player?

 

As for qb injuries, there are of course numerous factors to consider other than the LT (admittedly a very important factor). Quick release, scrambling ability, athleticism, a propensity to run TOO much, conditioning, and many other things enter into the equation (to include the other OL positions).

Warner and McNabb WERE injured, but they also made superbowls. Do you give the LTS ALL of the credit for this? See my point?

 

The sad truth is that until both of our lines are fixed, we will be having this same sad conversation.

[BADOLBILZ]

I'd argue with Jennings, Petitgout, McKinnie, Hicks, Sims, and Davis on merit.  Jennings is frequently broken and the others aren't anything special.  Artis Hicks was a guard for Philly and Barry Sims has usually been a guard as well.

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Sims has been a good starting left tackle for a long time for a very high profile team that the Bills have played often.

[Bill from NYC]

Sims has been a good starting left tackle for a long time for a very high profile team that the Bills have played often.

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Why was he not drafted? Was he injured?

[Kelly the Dog]

I know for a fact that Jim McNally thinks that Gandy is in "the top half" of LT's in the league. He said it out loud, in a serious private conversation about the Bills. And in that conversation he said other things not very complimentary about his players. He could be somewhat of a homer himself, or deluding himself, but he did say it seriously, and not to a member of the press as kind of a ball-washing. So I have no reason to believe he doesn't believe it. Personally, I think Gandy is middle of the pack at best, but played pretty decent last year and could be a lot better this year, especially with a better coached offense and a better guard next to him, and sometimes a good blocking TE next to him.

[Rico]

Gandy is a bargain now, but he's also scheduled to be a 2007 UFA. If he can stay away from injury again & keep on improving, he'll be making a lot more $$$ next year, either here or somewhere else. In any event, I hope he has a great season, but I'd rather see Peters or a Levi Jones there in 2007.

[Estro]

If anyone has enough time to watch enough game tape to evaluate all season long for all 32+ starting LT's throughout the season, there's either something wrong with you, or you are john claytons secret boyfriend... Just my opinion

[BUFFALOTONE]

Lepsis

 

You think that Walter Pace and Willie Roaf are a "degree above average?" Not even close imo.

 

I understand the point that you are trying to make, that Gandy is a bargain of sorts. A case could be made that you are correct. This still begs the question......don't you, after a decade of poor blocking, want more at our LT position than a durable, average player?

 

As for qb injuries, there are of course numerous factors to consider other than the LT (admittedly a very important factor). Quick release, scrambling ability, athleticism, a propensity to run TOO much, conditioning, and many other things enter into the equation (to include the other OL positions).

Warner and McNabb WERE injured, but they also made superbowls. Do you give the LTS ALL of the credit for this? See my point? 

 

The sad truth is that until both of our lines are fixed, we will be having this same sad conversation.

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Whos Walter Pace? Do you mean Orlando ?

[Bill from NYC]

Whos Walter Pace? Do you mean Orlando ?

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Thanks.

[Max997]

What IS important is that Gandy is no worse than the middle tier of LTs, which makes him a solid starter in this league. 

 

middle tier at a key position doesnt cut it for me....I would take any one of the 18 LT's listed above over Gandy and even though D'Brick hasnt played a down in the NFL I would take him also so you can make that number 19

 

you dont win in the NFL with an average at best LT

[MadBuffaloDisease]

It's not like the Bills can magically go out and get a great LT. There's a reason these guys are either frachised to already signed to huge long-term deals. So having a guy like Gandy, who should only improve with better coaching and players around him finally, was a great find for the Bills.

 

Now do I want them to improve at LT? Of course, and I think Peters is the guy. But one still has to give Gandy props for how he played last year.

[Bill from NYC]

It's not like the Bills can magically go out and get a great LT.  There's a reason these guys are either frachised to already signed to huge long-term deals.  So having a guy like Gandy, who should only improve with better coaching and players around him finally, was a great find for the Bills. 

 

Now do I want them to improve at LT?  Of course, and I think Peters is the guy.  But one still has to give Gandy props for how he played last year.

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You might not like this, but I agree.

At least I HOPE Peters is the guy at LT because if he is, our possibilities for having a good line (between early draft picks and high price tag UFAs) would be huge.

[MadBuffaloDisease]

You might not like this, but I agree. 

I ALWAYS like it when someone agrees with me.

[JStranger76]

A line I'd personally like to see( depending on if Gibson plays well ) would be Peters at LT, Gibson at RT, Fowler at C, with Reyes, Villarial, and Gandy fighting for the two guard positions. Preston is not even a consideration in my opinion.