All of you OL experts out there

[eball]

...now is the time to put your "reputations" on the line.

 

I've heard the "experts" nationally, and here on TSW, bemoan the Bills' OL -- and specifically the LT position -- as in serious need of an upgrade.

 

I challenge anyone to list the LTs currently starting in the NFL who are demonstrably better than Mike Gandy, based upon how they played in 2005.

 

I have stated publicly that I believe Gandy is an above average LT, which to me is satisfactory if you don't have one of the few "studs" out there who command the megabucks salaries.

 

I'd like to know if anyone can prove me wrong.

[MattyT]

...now is the time to put your "reputations" on the line.

 

I've heard the "experts" nationally, and here on TSW, bemoan the Bills' OL -- and specifically the LT position -- as in serious need of an upgrade.

 

I challenge anyone to list the LTs currently starting in the NFL who are demonstrably better than Mike Gandy, based upon how they played in 2005.

 

I have stated publicly that I believe Gandy is an above average LT, which to me is satisfactory if you don't have one of the few "studs" out there who command the megabucks salaries.

 

I'd like to know if anyone can prove me wrong.

722998[/snapback]

So, if I can come up with one or two better LTs does that mean that Gandy isn't above average?

 

I see your point, but the homework assignment doesn't seem to support the theory.

 

Now, if you want to evaluate all the starting LTs and rank them based on some important criteria (pancakes, sacks allowed, etc.) then see if Gandy falls into the top, say, 70%...then you might be onto something.

 

Let me know what you find out.

[eball]

So, if I can come up with one or two better LTs does that mean that Gandy isn't above average?

 

I see your point, but the homework assignment doesn't seem to support the theory.

 

Now, if you want to evaluate all the starting LTs and rank them based on some important criteria (pancakes, sacks allowed, etc.) then see if Gandy falls into the top, say, 70%...then you might be onto something.

 

Let me know what you find out. 

723060[/snapback]

C'mon, quit playing games. If there are 32 starting LTs in the league, then the top 16 are "above average." You pick the criteria -- to me it matters not. My point is that the bashing of the Bills at LT is, in my opinion, unfounded, and I challenge someone to put some proof behind the negativity.

[RayFinkle]

C'mon, quit playing games.  If there are 32 starting LTs in the league, then the top 16 are "above average."  You pick the criteria -- to me it matters not.  My point is that the bashing of the Bills at LT is, in my opinion, unfounded, and I challenge someone to put some proof behind the negativity.

723065[/snapback]

I've never bashed Gandy, but I'll give you 18 better LTs: Jonathan Ogden, Levi Jones, Matt Lepsis, Tarik Glenn, Willie Roaf, Barry Sims, Marvel Smith, Chris Samuels, Orlando Pace, Walter Jones, Jonas Jennings, Artis Hicks, Luke Petitgout, Bryant McKinnie, Jeff Backus, John Tait, Travelle Wharton, and Leonard Davis.

[5 Wide]

I've never bashed Gandy, but I'll give you 18 better LTs: Jonathan Ogden, Levi Jones, Matt Lepsis, Tarik Glenn, Willie Roaf, Barry Sims, Marvel Smith, Chris Samuels, Orlando Pace, Walter Jones, Jonas Jennings, Artis Hicks, Luke Petitgout, Bryant McKinnie, Jeff Backus, John Tait, Travelle Wharton, and Leonard Davis.

723077[/snapback]

 

 

Well that's a list good enough for me. Would the last one out please turn off the lights

[eball]

Well that's a list good enough for me.  Would the last one out please turn off the lights

723082[/snapback]

I don't know if that's good enough for me. I'd say Gandy is in the same league (pun intended) with at least six or seven of those guys.

[sven233]

I have been one all along that has said that Gandy did not play as bad as many think. Is here a star at LT?..........No, but how many star LTs are in the league. Outside of the select few in this league, there are not many studs. Why do you think I was harping so long this offseason to go after DA BRICK?

 

Now, just because I wanted to upgrade that position, doesn't mean that Gandy did a bad job. His pass pro was better than average. His run blocking wasn't very good, but I think a lot of that was due to VERY poor play at LG. Whoever was playing LG last year made that entire side look weak. So, I don't blameGandy for that.

 

So, to sum things up, although I wanted an upgrade this season, Gandy was good enough over there and if he can stay healthy, I expect a solid year out of him. I just hope our new LG can give him some more support on that side of the line so McGahee doesn't have to make 3 guys miss in the backfieldbefore he even gets to the line like he had to do last year.

[BUFFALOTONE]

I don't know if that's good enough for me.  I'd say Gandy is in the same league (pun intended) with at least six or seven of those guys.

723096[/snapback]

 

Hey Homer wheres Marge?

[ganesh]

 

I have stated publicly that I believe Gandy is an above average LT, which to me is satisfactory if you don't have one of the few "studs" out there who command the megabucks salaries.

 

I'd like to know if anyone can prove me wrong.

722998[/snapback]

 

I think there are a few top notch LTs in the league today like Orlando Pace, Levi Jones, Walter Jones, Marvel Smith, Todd Light who dominate their opponents.

 

However, being above average translates to mediocrity, as most other tackles are average too.....

[5 Wide]

I don't know if that's good enough for me.  I'd say Gandy is in the same league (pun intended) with at least six or seven of those guys.

723096[/snapback]

 

 

I've never been a guy openly critical of Gandy and I don't plan to start now. He did surprise me last year because in a lot of games I didn't notice he was even playing (which is a very good thing). With that being said, I don't think I could place him in the above average starting left tackle category. He's no Pro-Bowler but he pleasantly surpised me in the fact he was no chump. He is a solid starting LT. Not spectacular, but solidly average. LT is the premier spot on the line and there are a lot of big talents that play the position so I just can't place him in the upper echelon. He won't get us beat though.

[RayFinkle]

Hey Homer wheres Marge?

723109[/snapback]

[Pyrite Gal]

I've never bashed Gandy, but I'll give you 18 better LTs: Jonathan Ogden, Levi Jones, Matt Lepsis, Tarik Glenn, Willie Roaf, Barry Sims, Marvel Smith, Chris Samuels, Orlando Pace, Walter Jones, Jonas Jennings, Artis Hicks, Luke Petitgout, Bryant McKinnie, Jeff Backus, John Tait, Travelle Wharton, and Leonard Davis.

723077[/snapback]

 

Many of these players are better than Gandy IMHO, but several of your assertions I think are pretty questionable.

 

First, in order to really answer this question i think we can use some definitions. In my mind I tend to divide the 32 starting tackles into thirds. The middle 3rd (10 or 11 out of 32) are average LTs in my mind). The uoper 10 or 11 are above average and the lower 10 or 11 below average.

 

Thus in order for Gandy to be above aberage IMHO we're taliking about him at least flirting with being a top 10 LT. I simply do not think anyone make this case.

 

Second, In terms of specifics, a good place to start is the salary cap. One can find the top 10 OL salaries in the Hot Topics at NFLPA.org. As most of the OL top 10 are LTs this gives you a pretty good sense of who the market says are the top 10 LTs and a lot of players on this list also are on that list.

 

Third, I think that a lot of this is over-reaching by the original poster as in the usual TSW internet style he sets far too high a standard for Gandy's play demanding that he be above average. I think Gandy surprised folks last year by proving to easily be adequate as an NFL starter at LT.

 

Is Gandy in or even flirting with the top 10 LTs? Nope. However. is he in the average middle third of LTs? I think easily. He started all 16 games (not a fact to be disregarded as some of the best do not do this), he did not give up a many if any one on one blow-out sacks as even the best LTs sometimes do (even Ogden got embarrased by Schobel recently) and he did not have to take a bunch of penalties when he got beaten out on an island.

 

The best news for team building by the Bills is that he does not even require average LT pay to put up an average LT performance.

 

As far as the list you provide, as I said Gandy is not above-average to me, but his play was easily adequat to me last year and I am comfortable with him being in the higher tier of the average players. However,

 

A. I'd much rather have Gandy as my LT than Jonas Jennings. Not only did JJ end up on IR last year with SF paying him a ton to rehab, but the handwriting was on the wall in JJs last season as a Bills where he either failed to start or failed to complete a 1/4 of the games that season. Even worse, I think he is at the RJ level of being injury prone as he went out with a variety of dingd and boo-bbos including ankle injuries, concussions and upper body muscle-tears.

 

B. Though McKinnie's production improved last year I think this had a lot to do with good head and quick release of Brad Johnson at QB who forces his blockers to hold their blocks much less than Culpepper and has the vet sense to get rid of the ball when his blockers break down. Even if you believe that BM has moved beyond his infamous hard partying that made him a leader of the Vikes sex boat romp, you also have Art Hicks on your list. Only one of them can play LT at a time and since he is now a Vike you should only have one or the other on your list.

 

C. Barry Sims is listed as a guard on nfl.com

 

I dp not have time to check the rest of the list, but clearly it is not the 18 better players you claim though it should make the easier standard I have of him needing to be in or near the top 10 to be above average.

[eball]

Third, I think that a lot of this is over-reaching by the original poster as in the usual TSW internet style he sets far too high a standard for Gandy's play demanding that he be above average.  I think Gandy surprised folks last year by proving to easily be adequate as an NFL starter at LT.

723184[/snapback]

I'm not even sure what this means, but if I may shed some light on my point, it is pretty simple. The Bills are not "horrible" at LT as so many seem to think. Whether your "above average" is the top 10-11 players or the top 16 is not important. What IS important is that Gandy is no worse than the middle tier of LTs, which makes him a solid starter in this league. He had NO help at LG last season to boot.

 

And by the way, I'll readily accept the title of "homer" when it comes to the Bills, Sabres, and Tar Heels. Those who have ever bothered to read my posts, however, also realize that I am not a pie-in-the-sky-everything-is-wonderful moron with blinders on. I am usually optimistic, quick to defend players and coaches whom I feel are unjustly criticized, and (I think) realistic in my expectations, with a touch of hopefulness thrown in for good measure.

[RuntheDamnBall]

I'm not even sure what this means, but if I may shed some light on my point, it is pretty simple.  The Bills are not "horrible" at LT as so many seem to think.  Whether your "above average" is the top 10-11 players or the top 16 is not important.  What IS important is that Gandy is no worse than the middle tier of LTs, which makes him a solid starter in this league.  He had NO help at LG last season to boot.

 

And by the way, I'll readily accept the title of "homer" when it comes to the Bills, Sabres, and Tar Heels.  Those who have ever bothered to read my posts, however, also realize that I am not a pie-in-the-sky-everything-is-wonderful moron with blinders on.  I am usually optimistic, quick to defend players and coaches whom I feel are unjustly criticized, and (I think) realistic in my expectations, with a touch of hopefulness thrown in for good measure.

723190[/snapback]

Our inside 3 were just atrocious last year, across the board. Period. Teague was dreadful and will lose his job to Mangold before even suiting up this year. Villarrial's best days are over. Mike Williams was a disaster and Bennie Anderson will also be a non-factor this year on a Dolphins squad that's prepared to let him challenge to start again. Not to mention Greg Jerman was manning a tackle position for a short time. If I see that guy on the field again this year I will have a freaking heart-attack. Hopefully Jauron is smart enough to send his ass packing.

 

I don't think Gandy is an all-Pro talent, but I think he is the fourth highest question-mark on this line, Peters being the least of these. Shore up the middle this year, with fingers crossed on Fowler, Reyes and Preston (!). LT will be a luxury upgrade, perhaps next year if these three or a surprise candidate can get it done.

[BADOLBILZ]

I've never bashed Gandy, but I'll give you 18 better LTs: Jonathan Ogden, Levi Jones, Matt Lepsis, Tarik Glenn, Willie Roaf, Barry Sims, Marvel Smith, Chris Samuels, Orlando Pace, Walter Jones, Jonas Jennings, Artis Hicks, Luke Petitgout, Bryant McKinnie, Jeff Backus, John Tait, Travelle Wharton, and Leonard Davis.

723077[/snapback]

 

Don't forget All Pro LT Flozell Adams, John Tait, Tra Thomas, Kevin Shaffer, Chad Clifton, Wayne Gandy, Roman Oben........only then do you start getting into an area where Mike Gandy can be considered, and even then there are more proven guys like Ross Verba and LJ Shelton and young players like Mike Pearson and D'Brickashaw. Add to that the LT's who have been switched to the right side to make way for BETTER LT's, like Jordan Gross and LT's waiting in the wings like Jason Peters, Robert Gallery.........and perhaps EBall might realize how utterly ridiculous his notion is.

 

Mike Gandy is not very good relative to the rest of the league. IMO a good definition of him is "not bad", but how many "bad" starting LT's are there? Practically none. With most teams featuring right handed QB's, they can't afford to risk the health of their most important player with bad blindside protection. Gandy's definately not what you want at LT, but on an OL where the interior IS "bad" he's certainly not the biggest problem.

[Bill from NYC]

Don't forget All Pro LT Flozell Adams, John Tait, Tra Thomas, Kevin Shaffer, Chad Clifton, Wayne Gandy, Roman Oben........only then do you start getting into an area where Mike Gandy can be considered, and even then there are more proven guys like Ross Verba and LJ Shelton and young players like Mike Pearson and D'Brickashaw.  Add to that the LT's who have been switched to the right side to make way for BETTER LT's,  like Jordan Gross and LT's waiting in the wings like Jason Peters, Robert Gallery.........and perhaps EBall might realize how utterly ridiculous his notion is. 

 

Mike Gandy is not very good relative to the rest of the league.  IMO a good definition of him is "not bad", but how many "bad" starting LT's are there? Practically none.  With most teams featuring right handed QB's, they can't afford to risk the health of their most important player with bad blindside protection.  Gandy's definately not what you want at LT, but on an OL where the interior IS "bad" he's certainly not the biggest problem.

723231[/snapback]

 

This was nothing short of a perfect reply.

 

It is amazing how many people can view Gandy, who was actually tossed off of his prior team, as something more than a stop gap LT.

I truly believe that Bills Fans have been numbed to the need for good blockers. We have lacked them for SO long that we have a specific age group of Bills Fans that have never seen a good offensive line!

 

5 of our last 6 top draft picks have been receivers and defensive backs, this on a team with little to no blocking for more than a decade, and we actually gave away picks to do this. After doing so, our secondary has "potential," and our receiving corps is shaky at best.

 

Worse yet is that there is no end in sight. Clements structured a deal which stipulates that he cannot be the "Franchise Player" in 07, and TV is old. I would not be at all surprised if we lose Nate and Marv just continues to draft corners. Nothing at all indicates to me that our beloved franchise will place the right amount of emphasis on blocking.

 

All we have is hope, and our devotion to the Bills and WNY.

 

GO BILLS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Pyrite Gal]

Don't forget All Pro LT Flozell Adams, John Tait, Tra Thomas, Kevin Shaffer, Chad Clifton, Wayne Gandy, Roman Oben........only then do you start getting into an area where Mike Gandy can be considered, and even then there are more proven guys like Ross Verba and LJ Shelton and young players like Mike Pearson and D'Brickashaw.  Add to that the LT's who have been switched to the right side to make way for BETTER LT's,  like Jordan Gross and LT's waiting in the wings like Jason Peters, Robert Gallery.........and perhaps EBall might realize how utterly ridiculous his notion is. 

 

Mike Gandy is not very good relative to the rest of the league.  IMO a good definition of him is "not bad", but how many "bad" starting LT's are there? Practically none.  With most teams featuring right handed QB's, they can't afford to risk the health of their most important player with bad blindside protection.  Gandy's definately not what you want at LT, but on an OL where the interior IS "bad" he's certainly not the biggest problem.

723231[/snapback]

 

I think the key point you make is that there really are not many "bad" LTs starting in this league because if youy are a bad LT then you end up on the bench as your team seeks a player who is not gonna get your QB killed with hits to his blindside.

 

I think e-balls original point is a good one if you are trying to defend our use of Gandy at LT last year against rants that claim he was a bad player. At the very least he was adequate or if not then the Bills would have needed to look elswhere as QB after QB would get hit by a player who is often the other team's best rrusher.

 

If you instead want to compare him to other players in the league in terms of his effect on the team. I am still pretty comfortable with assessing Gandy as being in the middle of the pack

 

1. In terms of improving our OL, when one looks at last year's starting five (Gamdy, Bennie. Teague, Villarial, and MW) Gandy is the last of these 5 you look at replacing not only by performance but by cost to replace him. This is a quality guide because clearly as incompetent as our OL was last year, they did somehing right since they were not rolled over evey single game and WM did rush for a bunch of yards. Gandy is by far the likely success story of this horrible crew.

 

2. I have seen no statistical offering that his opponents were racking up a ton off sacks when they played him or he was consistently getting penalized as he had to tackle players who got past him and were on their way to our QB.

 

3. He did start all 16 games last year and this is actually a starting point in assessing a players impact for a team. The claim above that JJ is a better LT than Gandy is actually fairly laughable when you look both at last season (no sacks on JJ cause he was on IR almost the whole season) and even the year before when he missed all or significant parts of a quarter of our games due to a string of injuries to different parts of his body.

 

4. One ultimate impact on a team and a relevant point of comparison if that is what one sets out to do that is bang for the buck, The Gandy cap hit is nothing short of outstanding for any player who played LT well enough to start all 16 games for you.

[Ramius]

Worse yet is that there is no end in sight. Clements structured a deal which stipulates that he cannot be the "Franchise Player" in 07, and TV is old. I would not be at all surprised if we lose Nate and Marv just continues to draft corners. Nothing at all indicates to me that our beloved franchise will place the right amount of emphasis on blocking.

 

All we have is hope, and our devotion to the Bills and WNY.

 

GO BILLS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

723249[/snapback]

 

your arms tired from beating the dead draft horse yet? Its a shame, because you have a ton of knowledge to bring to the table when you arent on a draftbad rant.

 

We lose Nate next year, Youboty steps in to start, with king and greer behind him. Whitner was drafted to start. As was simpson. Hence no need to draft safeties or CB's early on next year. I dont see why marv is automatically going to draft them next year. He's had 1 draft as a GM. Thats not enough to come to a consensus.

[Matt in KC]

Some interesting stats are here, at Football Outsiders:

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/ol.php

These stats are by position, but since Gandy was consistently in at LT, this works for evaluating him versus what other teams did.

 

Overall (Bills) run blocking: 16th place

 

Runs off left end: 26th ; inside left tackle: 23rd (BTW, runs off right end: 6th)

64% of all runs were up the middle, more than any team but NO, who also performed poorly. (15% to the left; 19% to the right; 2% rounding error or no direction (stuffed).

 

As was pointed out earlier, though, this is a team sport. It's hard to pin this all on Gandy when I repeatedly saw Benny standing there wishing a defender would come to him so he could block them.

[Bob in STL]

...now is the time to put your "reputations" on the line.

 

I've heard the "experts" nationally, and here on TSW, bemoan the Bills' OL -- and specifically the LT position -- as in serious need of an upgrade.

 

I challenge anyone to list the LTs currently starting in the NFL who are demonstrably better than Mike Gandy, based upon how they played in 2005.

 

I have stated publicly that I believe Gandy is an above average LT, which to me is satisfactory if you don't have one of the few "studs" out there who command the megabucks salaries.

 

I'd like to know if anyone can prove me wrong.

722998[/snapback]

 

Afer reading this thread, and particularly the names of the LTs listed , it is impossible for me to answer as to whether he is "above average" or even average. If he was so clearly above average then I seriously doubt would the Bills have been able to get him as a low tier free agent signing. That is not to say he doesn't have good upside either.

 

One thing we know is that the Bills did not seriously pursue any other potential free agent tackles other than talking to Fabini. They drafted developmental tackles. Maybe they are content with Gandy and they think he is above average?

 

Most likely he is an adequate (average) player and they will be looking at LTs again in the next off season, having chosen to address the defense first.