ABC News'

[jimshiz]

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/story?id=2182020...TC-RSSFeeds0312

 

Mikhail Gorbachev is generally regarded as the man who broke down the "iron curtain" that separated the communist world from the West and thawed the Cold War between the United States and the Soviet Union.

[Alaska Darin]

That Gorby, what a one man show. Thank goodness he brought down that wall.

[Crap Throwing Monkey]

That Gorby, what a one man show.  Thank goodness he brought down that wall.

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One of the classic speeches of the late 20th Century..."Mr. Gorbachav, tear down this wall!" I always wondered why he addressed himself in the third person.

 

 

(Though to be fair, he deserves some credit. Glasnost and perestroika and all. He was the first Soviet Premier that Reagan didn't have to take a hard line against. That does count for quite a bit.)

[Chilly]

Gorbachev played a HUGE part in the end of the cold war with moving the country toward a competitive authoritarian regime, something thats often overlooked.

 

Granted, I don't know if I really like the guy, or if he ever really intended to make it anything other then a competitive authoritarian regime. I mean he seems to be pushing toward more democracy in Russia, but at the same time is a supporter of Putin, who effectively is making it more and more authoritarian.

 

Yeah, the way the ABC News article worded it was stupid. I understand their point: he's the guy who was the most instrumental on the Russian side of things, and thats his POV. But the way they said it was stupid, and an editor really should have caught that.

 

Then again, they ARE a Disney company, so....

[PastaJoe]

Gorbachev was the one who began the withdrawl of Soviet troops from Eastern Europe, and let the Warsaw Pact countries determine their own political futures. The Soviet Union's economy was on a steady decline due to the continued pressure from all presidents from Truman through Reagan, and couldn't continue it's control of Eastern Europe. But if anyone deserves credit other than Gorbachev for the breakdown of the Soviet Union, it's Pope John Paul II for supporting Solidarity, which was the spark that ignited the movement against Communism in Eastern Europe.

[GG]

Let it be known, that on July 13, 2007, 6:50PM I finally agree with a Pasta Joe post.

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

Let it be known, that on July 13, 2007, 6:50PM I finally agree with a Pasta Joe post.

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That's not entirely accurate as others (Vaclav Havel, for example) were doing the same things in other countries. The USSR failed because socialism/communism is a failure.

[Crap Throwing Monkey]

The USSR failed because socialism/communism is a failure.

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Wouldn't it just be easier to say "My ideology can beat up your ideology?"

[GG]

That's not entirely accurate as others (Vaclav Havel, for example) were doing the same things in other countries. The USSR failed because socialism/communism is a failure.

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Havel, etc wouldn't even get a chance, if the Pope didn't do what he did.

[TheMadCap]

Let it be known, that on July 13, 2007, 6:50PM I finally agree with a Pasta Joe post.

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So you will agree with him exactly one year from now????

[PastaJoe]

That's not entirely accurate as others (Vaclav Havel, for example) were doing the same things in other countries. The USSR failed because socialism/communism is a failure.

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It seems to be doing alright in China. Of course true socialism was never tried by China or the Soviet Union, because there are always some people that are "more equal than others", as they say.

[Alaska Darin]

It seems to be doing alright in China. 

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[erynthered]

It seems to be doing alright in China. 

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You cant be serious?

[PastaJoe]

You cant be serious?

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I don't see the Communist Party in China losing control anytime soon. I didn't say it was good for the people, but the government is giving the people just enough material goods to placate them so they don't mount any real opposition to the Party.

[Crap Throwing Monkey]

I don't see the Communist Party in China losing control anytime soon.  I didn't say it was good for the people, but the government is giving the people just enough material goods to placate them so they don't mount any real opposition to the Party.

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The Communist Party in China has about as much to do with communism as the conservatives in America have to do with conservatism.

[Alaska Darin]

I don't see the Communist Party in China losing control anytime soon.  I didn't say it was good for the people, but the government is giving the people "just enough material goods to placate them" so they don't mount any real opposition to the Party.

723484[/snapback]

You left out "and killing or imprisoning those who show any opposition whatsoever." But it's always sunshine and bunnies when there's big government + Pasta Joe.

[PastaJoe]

You left out "and killing or imprisoning those who show any opposition whatsoever."  But it's always sunshine and bunnies when there's big government + Pasta Joe.

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It goes without saying that they do that, but there isn't enough internal or external opposition to change their tactics. China is our biggest challenge in the future, and Americans are going right along helping them increase their economic and military strength. I wish our government would get tougher with them, our companies would stop moving our jobs there, and our consumers would stop buying their products, even if it costs more. But everyone looks at the short term of buying something for 50 cents less at Walmart and doesn't consider the long term impact. Thus I'm into year 3 of my boycott of Walmart, and buy American-made whenever I can.

[Alaska Darin]

China is our biggest challenge in the future

The biggest challenge to the future of America is shrinking the size and scope of our own government. Unless that happens, we're going to fall apart without much outside interference.

 

and Americans are going right along helping them increase their economic and military strength. 

The folks in your party are just following the example of former President Clinton, who never met a pro-Chinese deal he didn't like.

 

I wish our government would get tougher with them, our companies would stop moving our jobs there, and our consumers would stop buying their products, even if it costs more.  But everyone looks at the short term of buying something for 50 cents less at Walmart and doesn't consider the long term impact.  Thus I'm into year 3 of my boycott of Walmart, and buy American-made whenever I can.

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That's a start.

[Orton's Arm]

But if anyone deserves credit other than Gorbachev for the breakdown of the Soviet Union, it's Pope John Paul II for supporting Solidarity

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A number of people deserve credit for the fall of the Soviet Union. You're right to point to Gorbachev and Pope John Paul II. I'd also include Lech Walesa, the leader of the Polish Solidarity movement. Margaret Thatcher did more than her share to help the Soviet Union fall, as did Boris Yeltsin.

 

But Ronald Reagan rose above the rest. He did the following:

1. Built up the American economy.

2. Used the resulting economic strength to build up the military.

3. Made it so that the Soviet leadership was more focused on Reagan than on their own citizens.

4. Reagan put forth a vision of freedom, so simply and clearly it even penetrated the censored realm of the Soviet Union. The Soviet government lacked a similarly compelling vision with which to explain their own actions. In fact, Soviet moves to a more open society seemed to be guided by Reagan's vision. Legitimizing Reagan's vision in this way ultimately did a lot to cause that government's fall.

[PastaJoe]

A number of people deserve credit for the fall of the Soviet Union.  You're right to point to Gorbachev and Pope John Paul II.  I'd also include Lech Walesa, the leader of the Polish Solidarity movement.  Margaret Thatcher did more than her share to help the Soviet Union fall, as did Boris Yeltsin.

 

But Ronald Reagan rose above the rest.  He did the following:

1. Built up the American economy.

2. Used the resulting economic strength to build up the military.

3. Made it so that the Soviet leadership was more focused on Reagan than on their own citizens.

4. Reagan put forth a vision of freedom, so simply and clearly it even penetrated the censored realm of the Soviet Union.  The Soviet government lacked a similarly compelling vision with which to explain their own actions.  In fact, Soviet moves to a more open society seemed to be guided by Reagan's vision.  Legitimizing Reagan's vision in this way ultimately did a lot to cause that government's fall.

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He built up the economy?! He created massive deficits and debt that we're still paying for after he left (deja vu to today)! What did he do to penetrate the censored realm, use telepathy?