Nanker Posted July 12, 2006 Posted July 12, 2006 Everybody seemed to understand that when TD took over he had to get us out of the "Cap Prison/Jail" situation that the previous regime left him, and he went about ruthlessly chopping dead wood from the team. He got a pass by throwing contracts over Niagra Falls untill he achieved enough balance to start signing players. Big-Bucks-Big-Name-New-Players = mixed individual results and 0-for-5 Playoffs. Marv's situation is not that different. I understand he's getting us out of the "Talent Prison/Jail" situation that the previous regime left him, and he's going about ruthlessly chopping dead wood from the team. He gets a pass from me because he's thrown a bunch of empty bodies over Niagra Falls and is trying to sign the right kind of players to balance the team in his vision.
Dennis in NC Posted July 12, 2006 Posted July 12, 2006 I'd rather listen to Marv's honesty than TD doublespeak any day of the week. I was so sick of hearing the TD/GW/MM doublespeak that they all seemed to morph together into a caricature of the Iraqi press secretary while we were invading. 721953[/snapback] LOL! That's a great image of the Iraqi press secretary/spin doctor talking big, while Abrams tanks roll by in the background. (Well, perhaps i've extrapolated a bit...) What was that guy's name, anyway?
OCinBuffalo Posted July 12, 2006 Posted July 12, 2006 That's a real shame. I don't see the point in being a fan if I refuse to be at least somewhat optimistic. I can certainly see how if several pieces fall into place, the Bills will be competitive every week. That makes them playoff caliber. Addressing the point of this topic -- don't you all see that Marv is once again exhibiting his communication skills? The guy is smarter than most of us put together. Since when is the term "rebuilding" the equivalent of "can't win?" Marv admits the obvious -- new GM, coaches, loss of several vets -- but stresses substance over style and expresses confidence in the team's direction. Do you think Marv believes the Bills "can't" win this year? Honestly, I don't know why a good number of you even follow sports. If I spent all my time criticizing, whining, and moaning about how bad things are, I'd be miserable. This stuff is supposed to be fun and a diversion from ho-hum everyday life. But whatever. 721972[/snapback] Dwelling on the negative simply contributes to its power. I might even take it a step further and question how many of the consistently negative posters even played team sports at a respectable level, i.e. high school varsity(I played D1 Lacrosse). What those of us who have know is that winning comes down to two main values: 1. Attitude 2. Hustle Clearly ML/DJ have committed to systems that stress, and players whose main attribute is, hustle(which is also why we need JP). It also appears that the attitude on the team is significantly improved over last year. Nonsense, media-friendly quotes from players aside, it seems clear that the players, while I'm sure maintain some skeptical thoughts, are genuinely encouraged by the changes that have been made. The key is believing you can win. I have played on teams where the coaches convinced us(the #1 job of a coach) that we could win. As soon as we started truly believing, we beat teams that, on paper, we had no business beating. How many here think that MM convinced the team that they could win last year? How much confidence did he spread by using JP as boot blocker for his own behind? Speaking to the original post, how did TD's year in and year out bs expectations - "coat of paint" - give the players, and us for that matter, any confidence? I leave with this: during the 90's we as fans truly believed we could win, no matter who was on the other side of the ball. The last game I was at, when the other team was near the endzones, it was like being at a baseball game, instead of the ear-drum shattering terror-drome RW(Rich) Stadium used to be. How about we take a look at our own attitude as fans, especially in the stands this year(I plan to fly up for at least two games), before we start criticizing others? A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort. - Herm Albright Wouldn't it be interesting if we really got it going this year in the stands regardless of the situation? It may not solve our problems but it would certainly annoy ESPN(minus Berman), SI, etc. just like we used to... GO BILLS!!!!
Chalkie Gerzowski Posted July 12, 2006 Posted July 12, 2006 At least he's on the ball, obvious and honest about it. He isn't shoveling a pile of **** like the last GM. As of today, this team isn't close to the playoffs. Maybe ol Marv will try and build the team the way they did in the mid to late 80s. All along I have had no problem with a rebuild (for nearly a decade now), as long as it is done right.
eball Posted July 12, 2006 Posted July 12, 2006 Dwelling on the negative simply contributes to its power. I might even take it a step further and question how many of the consistently negative posters even played team sports at a respectable level, i.e. high school varsity(I played D1 Lacrosse). What those of us who have know is that winning comes down to two main values: 1. Attitude 2. Hustle Clearly ML/DJ have committed to systems that stress, and players whose main attribute is, hustle(which is also why we need JP). It also appears that the attitude on the team is significantly improved over last year. Nonsense, media-friendly quotes from players aside, it seems clear that the players, while I'm sure maintain some skeptical thoughts, are genuinely encouraged by the changes that have been made. The key is believing you can win. I have played on teams where the coaches convinced us(the #1 job of a coach) that we could win. As soon as we started truly believing, we beat teams that, on paper, we had no business beating. How many here think that MM convinced the team that they could win last year? How much confidence did he spread by using JP as boot blocker for his own behind? Speaking to the original post, how did TD's year in and year out bs expectations - "coat of paint" - give the players, and us for that matter, any confidence? I leave with this: during the 90's we as fans truly believed we could win, no matter who was on the other side of the ball. The last game I was at, when the other team was near the endzones, it was like being at a baseball game, instead of the ear-drum shattering terror-drome RW(Rich) Stadium used to be. How about we take a look at our own attitude as fans, especially in the stands this year(I plan to fly up for at least two games), before we start criticizing others? A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort. - Herm Albright Wouldn't it be interesting if we really got it going this year in the stands regardless of the situation? It may not solve our problems but it would certainly annoy ESPN(minus Berman), SI, etc. just like we used to... GO BILLS!!!! 722045[/snapback] I hope you start posting more frequently. I like the way you think.
Kelly the Dog Posted July 12, 2006 Posted July 12, 2006 The first year that Donohoe was here he said things like that because it was obvious. The second year he said things like we are going to compete. I guarantee you that each of the last three years he truly believed what he said, that we would be good, the coaches truly believed and the players truly believed that they would contend for the playoffs. They were wrong of course, but i don't think TD ever pulled wool over people's eyes about the talent or the expectations. I guarantee you he believed it. Most fans did, too. He just made gross miscalculations on some players and coaches. But I don't believe for a nanosecond that he knew the Bills weren't going to be good and said otherwise.
Ramius Posted July 12, 2006 Posted July 12, 2006 Dwelling on the negative simply contributes to its power. I might even take it a step further and question how many of the consistently negative posters even played team sports at a respectable level, i.e. high school varsity(I played D1 Lacrosse). What those of us who have know is that winning comes down to two main values: 1. Attitude 2. Hustle Clearly ML/DJ have committed to systems that stress, and players whose main attribute is, hustle(which is also why we need JP). It also appears that the attitude on the team is significantly improved over last year. Nonsense, media-friendly quotes from players aside, it seems clear that the players, while I'm sure maintain some skeptical thoughts, are genuinely encouraged by the changes that have been made. The key is believing you can win. I have played on teams where the coaches convinced us(the #1 job of a coach) that we could win. As soon as we started truly believing, we beat teams that, on paper, we had no business beating. How many here think that MM convinced the team that they could win last year? How much confidence did he spread by using JP as boot blocker for his own behind? Speaking to the original post, how did TD's year in and year out bs expectations - "coat of paint" - give the players, and us for that matter, any confidence? I leave with this: during the 90's we as fans truly believed we could win, no matter who was on the other side of the ball. The last game I was at, when the other team was near the endzones, it was like being at a baseball game, instead of the ear-drum shattering terror-drome RW(Rich) Stadium used to be. How about we take a look at our own attitude as fans, especially in the stands this year(I plan to fly up for at least two games), before we start criticizing others? A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort. - Herm Albright Wouldn't it be interesting if we really got it going this year in the stands regardless of the situation? It may not solve our problems but it would certainly annoy ESPN(minus Berman), SI, etc. just like we used to... GO BILLS!!!! 722045[/snapback] great post!
Scraps Posted July 12, 2006 Posted July 12, 2006 What i meant was that marv didnt just go after glamour and flash players. he brought in solid players who are going to give it their all every single play. Players that WANT to play, and players that are part of a team, not a bunch of "me's" 721973[/snapback] How do you know that? I don't recall there being much competition for the services of Reyes, Fowler or especially Price. Seems like they may be here for the Benjamins.
Scraps Posted July 12, 2006 Posted July 12, 2006 That's a real shame. I don't see the point in being a fan if I refuse to be at least somewhat optimistic. I can certainly see how if several pieces fall into place, the Bills will be competitive every week. That makes them playoff caliber. Addressing the point of this topic -- don't you all see that Marv is once again exhibiting his communication skills? The guy is smarter than most of us put together. Since when is the term "rebuilding" the equivalent of "can't win?" Marv admits the obvious -- new GM, coaches, loss of several vets -- but stresses substance over style and expresses confidence in the team's direction. Do you think Marv believes the Bills "can't" win this year? Honestly, I don't know why a good number of you even follow sports. If I spent all my time criticizing, whining, and moaning about how bad things are, I'd be miserable. This stuff is supposed to be fun and a diversion from ho-hum everyday life. But whatever. 721972[/snapback] I have a limited amount of time and a limited amount of money. If a team is going to put on a bad product and not be enjoyable to watch, I'd rather find other enjoyable things to spend my time and money on than to get my hopes up and have them crushed week after week.
ronbaskin Posted July 12, 2006 Posted July 12, 2006 Be very happy Levy has admitted the obvious. The problem with most team officials in professional sports today is they avoid the "r" word with the plague, even though it's there for the whole world to see. There is no greater satisfaction for any fan than to cheer his/her team on from doormat to Super Bowl champs. But it all has to start somewhere. Championship teams don't materialize from thin air' they are built through hard work and shrewd talent assessments. I have more than my share of questions regarding some of the moves Levy has made, but I'm more than willing to give him huge cred for his veracity on this issue. What that means is the team isn't where Levy wants it to be, yet. That's really a good acknowledgement because we know it's not a playoff contender. It also indicates Levy has a plan for the future and he plans to stick with it. The Bills don't have to make a playoff run this season to satisfy me. They just have to show consistent improvement and competitiveness. At least nobody can accuse Levy of misleading the fans.
OCinBuffalo Posted July 13, 2006 Posted July 13, 2006 The first year that Donohoe was here he said things like that because it was obvious. The second year he said things like we are going to compete. I guarantee you that each of the last three years he truly believed what he said, that we would be good, the coaches truly believed and the players truly believed that they would contend for the playoffs. They were wrong of course, but i don't think TD ever pulled wool over people's eyes about the talent or the expectations. I guarantee you he believed it. Most fans did, too. He just made gross miscalculations on some players and coaches. But I don't believe for a nanosecond that he knew the Bills weren't going to be good and said otherwise. 722092[/snapback] I can't speak to TD with regard to belief, none of us can because we don't know what was in his head at the time. Also, his decisions and the process used to arrive at them, the same as Marv's, will never be known to us unless we are in the room at the time. All we have to go on is press statements, which can be screwed up of course, and results. My post has more to do with observing MM decisions both on and off the field. What I saw last year about half the time was a tired, lazy, mouthy, confused and therefore undisciplined team(read: bad coaching). I did not see a talentless team(read: bad GM). This means that, imho, most of our problems had to do with MM - but more likely the assistants - stepping on their cranks when it came to conditioning(bigger issue last year than people realize), game planning, and most importantly LEADING during the game. All you had to do was watch the players faces during the game to see that they were being driven, not led. I have been saying right along that we have the people, we just didn't have the plan that fits the people we had/have. To make matters worse, when things got tough, the creators of the plan started blaming everyone else, instead of fixing the plan and/or execution of the plan. Now we have new leadership and by definition a new plan. We know that Marv will lead from the top and that there will be zero doubt, at least in my mind, that when he says we are ready to win, we will win. As far as DJ goes, anything will be better than a guy who blames his players for his own bad plan/spins to cover his ass. So, I suggest we come at this from an expectation that at the very least DJ will be honest with us - until he isn't. From what I have seen so far, we have a very good chance to surprise a lot of the "experts", on this board as well as the pros because we have effectively changed our personnel and our plan finally matches our personnel. From what I have seen, players that are: smart, humble, under-sized but strong and fast(read: The new Bills) beat dull, cocky, massive but fat and slow(read: Last year) players every time. We can only get better than last year with regard to coaching because it seems that DJ will be honest with the players and us, and more importantly himself. GO BILLS!!!
dave mcbride Posted July 13, 2006 Author Posted July 13, 2006 The first year that Donohoe was here he said things like that because it was obvious. The second year he said things like we are going to compete. I guarantee you that each of the last three years he truly believed what he said, that we would be good, the coaches truly believed and the players truly believed that they would contend for the playoffs. They were wrong of course, but i don't think TD ever pulled wool over people's eyes about the talent or the expectations. I guarantee you he believed it. Most fans did, too. He just made gross miscalculations on some players and coaches. But I don't believe for a nanosecond that he knew the Bills weren't going to be good and said otherwise. 722092[/snapback] i'm not sure this is directed at me, but my comment about donohoe isn't necessarily a criticism -- one wants a leader to believe in the possibility of success. re the bills in 2001, he did probably believe that rob johnson was due for a breakout year, and he couldn't have anticipated the loss of the team's best defensive player, cowart. that said, 2 years later he moaned and groaned ad infinitum about being in cap jail his first year and the fact that it was a rebuilding year (things he never said that year itself). basically, he was intellectually dishonest. it's sorta like wearing the opposite of rose-colored glasses -- mud-covered glasses, if you will.
Kelly the Dog Posted July 13, 2006 Posted July 13, 2006 I can't speak to TD with regard to belief, none of us can because we don't know what was in his head at the time. Also, his decisions and the process used to arrive at them, the same as Marv's, will never be known to us unless we are in the room at the time. All we have to go on is press statements, which can be screwed up of course, and results. My post has more to do with observing MM decisions both on and off the field. What I saw last year about half the time was a tired, lazy, mouthy, confused and therefore undisciplined team(read: bad coaching). I did not see a talentless team(read: bad GM). This means that, imho, most of our problems had to do with MM - but more likely the assistants - stepping on their cranks when it came to conditioning(bigger issue last year than people realize), game planning, and most importantly LEADING during the game. All you had to do was watch the players faces during the game to see that they were being driven, not led. I have been saying right along that we have the people, we just didn't have the plan that fits the people we had/have. To make matters worse, when things got tough, the creators of the plan started blaming everyone else, instead of fixing the plan and/or execution of the plan. Now we have new leadership and by definition a new plan. We know that Marv will lead from the top and that there will be zero doubt, at least in my mind, that when he says we are ready to win, we will win. As far as DJ goes, anything will be better than a guy who blames his players for his own bad plan/spins to cover his ass. So, I suggest we come at this from an expectation that at the very least DJ will be honest with us - until he isn't. From what I have seen so far, we have a very good chance to surprise a lot of the "experts", on this board as well as the pros because we have effectively changed our personnel and our plan finally matches our personnel. From what I have seen, players that are: smart, humble, under-sized but strong and fast(read: The new Bills) beat dull, cocky, massive but fat and slow(read: Last year) players every time. We can only get better than last year with regard to coaching because it seems that DJ will be honest with the players and us, and more importantly himself. GO BILLS!!! 722217[/snapback] Good post.
EC-Bills Posted July 13, 2006 Posted July 13, 2006 I can't speak to TD with regard to belief, none of us can because we don't know what was in his head at the time. Also, his decisions and the process used to arrive at them, the same as Marv's, will never be known to us unless we are in the room at the time. All we have to go on is press statements, which can be screwed up of course, and results. My post has more to do with observing MM decisions both on and off the field. What I saw last year about half the time was a tired, lazy, mouthy, confused and therefore undisciplined team(read: bad coaching). I did not see a talentless team(read: bad GM). This means that, imho, most of our problems had to do with MM - but more likely the assistants - stepping on their cranks when it came to conditioning(bigger issue last year than people realize), game planning, and most importantly LEADING during the game. All you had to do was watch the players faces during the game to see that they were being driven, not led. I have been saying right along that we have the people, we just didn't have the plan that fits the people we had/have. To make matters worse, when things got tough, the creators of the plan started blaming everyone else, instead of fixing the plan and/or execution of the plan. Now we have new leadership and by definition a new plan. We know that Marv will lead from the top and that there will be zero doubt, at least in my mind, that when he says we are ready to win, we will win. As far as DJ goes, anything will be better than a guy who blames his players for his own bad plan/spins to cover his ass. So, I suggest we come at this from an expectation that at the very least DJ will be honest with us - until he isn't. From what I have seen so far, we have a very good chance to surprise a lot of the "experts", on this board as well as the pros because we have effectively changed our personnel and our plan finally matches our personnel. From what I have seen, players that are: smart, humble, under-sized but strong and fast(read: The new Bills) beat dull, cocky, massive but fat and slow(read: Last year) players every time. We can only get better than last year with regard to coaching because it seems that DJ will be honest with the players and us, and more importantly himself. GO BILLS!!! 722217[/snapback] Another great post!
NorthWesternBill Posted July 13, 2006 Posted July 13, 2006 If not theres always hockey... 721946[/snapback] not here in Solame , OR
Pyrite Gal Posted July 13, 2006 Posted July 13, 2006 I can't speak to TD with regard to belief, none of us can because we don't know what was in his head at the time. Also, his decisions and the process used to arrive at them, the same as Marv's, will never be known to us unless we are in the room at the time. All we have to go on is press statements, which can be screwed up of course, and results. My post has more to do with observing MM decisions both on and off the field. What I saw last year about half the time was a tired, lazy, mouthy, confused and therefore undisciplined team(read: bad coaching). I did not see a talentless team(read: bad GM). This means that, imho, most of our problems had to do with MM - but more likely the assistants - stepping on their cranks when it came to conditioning(bigger issue last year than people realize), game planning, and most importantly LEADING during the game. All you had to do was watch the players faces during the game to see that they were being driven, not led. I have been saying right along that we have the people, we just didn't have the plan that fits the people we had/have. To make matters worse, when things got tough, the creators of the plan started blaming everyone else, instead of fixing the plan and/or execution of the plan. Now we have new leadership and by definition a new plan. We know that Marv will lead from the top and that there will be zero doubt, at least in my mind, that when he says we are ready to win, we will win. As far as DJ goes, anything will be better than a guy who blames his players for his own bad plan/spins to cover his ass. So, I suggest we come at this from an expectation that at the very least DJ will be honest with us - until he isn't. From what I have seen so far, we have a very good chance to surprise a lot of the "experts", on this board as well as the pros because we have effectively changed our personnel and our plan finally matches our personnel. From what I have seen, players that are: smart, humble, under-sized but strong and fast(read: The new Bills) beat dull, cocky, massive but fat and slow(read: Last year) players every time. We can only get better than last year with regard to coaching because it seems that DJ will be honest with the players and us, and more importantly himself. GO BILLS!!! 722217[/snapback] I also have no idea what TD believed actually, but I can see what he did. He hired GW as his HC because he said he was wowed by him in the interview. Unfortunately, he passed on hiring two other candidates for the last open NFL HC slot who were Charlie Fox and marvin Lewis (who it looks like TD would have had to work hard to attract him amd his wife to come here in order to get them). Yhe facts are that these two coaches have turned out to have done a far more effective job with teams which were about as bad )if not worse) than the Bills when these three were hired. While I think it is RW who bears the lionshare of the blame for taking a foolish obviously false approach to motivating his team by claining we had a real shot at the playoffs in 2001 (instead of taking a far more sensible and I believe better motivational approach like the one Teddy Nolan used with his initially bad Sabres team of declaring them the hardest working club in hocket or the approach Marv is taking now of admitting under questioning that we are rebuilding, but noting that the approach we are taking will be based on hard work, lots of reps, simplicity. etc. GW said it and then sucked at other aspects of the game such asL hiring a staff with experience, managing the game clock, making good challenge decisions, amd directly managing the players with things other than his stupid air horn. However, the buck stops with the guy who hired GW. TD seemed to manage his coaches with a mitivation to never get fired by a guy he hired again rather than to jusy win baby.
Taro T Posted July 13, 2006 Posted July 13, 2006 I can't speak to TD with regard to belief, none of us can because we don't know what was in his head at the time. Also, his decisions and the process used to arrive at them, the same as Marv's, will never be known to us unless we are in the room at the time. All we have to go on is press statements, which can be screwed up of course, and results. My post has more to do with observing MM decisions both on and off the field. What I saw last year about half the time was a tired, lazy, mouthy, confused and therefore undisciplined team(read: bad coaching). I did not see a talentless team(read: bad GM). This means that, imho, most of our problems had to do with MM - but more likely the assistants - stepping on their cranks when it came to conditioning(bigger issue last year than people realize), game planning, and most importantly LEADING during the game. All you had to do was watch the players faces during the game to see that they were being driven, not led. I have been saying right along that we have the people, we just didn't have the plan that fits the people we had/have. To make matters worse, when things got tough, the creators of the plan started blaming everyone else, instead of fixing the plan and/or execution of the plan. Now we have new leadership and by definition a new plan. We know that Marv will lead from the top and that there will be zero doubt, at least in my mind, that when he says we are ready to win, we will win. As far as DJ goes, anything will be better than a guy who blames his players for his own bad plan/spins to cover his ass. So, I suggest we come at this from an expectation that at the very least DJ will be honest with us - until he isn't. From what I have seen so far, we have a very good chance to surprise a lot of the "experts", on this board as well as the pros because we have effectively changed our personnel and our plan finally matches our personnel. From what I have seen, players that are: smart, humble, under-sized but strong and fast(read: The new Bills) beat dull, cocky, massive but fat and slow(read: Last year) players every time. We can only get better than last year with regard to coaching because it seems that DJ will be honest with the players and us, and more importantly himself. GO BILLS!!! 722217[/snapback] Of all the things MM did or didn't do, I still think that running Rusty Jones out of town ranks up there with Wade running Bruce DeHaven out and hiring idiot boy on the stupidity scale of what not to do as a head coach. I was really hoping that Marv would find a way to bring Rusty back.
BuffOrange Posted July 13, 2006 Posted July 13, 2006 Dwelling on the negative simply contributes to its power. I might even take it a step further and question how many of the consistently negative posters even played team sports at a respectable level, i.e. high school varsity(I played D1 Lacrosse). What those of us who have know is that winning comes down to two main values: 1. Attitude 2. Hustle Clearly ML/DJ have committed to systems that stress, and players whose main attribute is, hustle(which is also why we need JP). It also appears that the attitude on the team is significantly improved over last year. Nonsense, media-friendly quotes from players aside, it seems clear that the players, while I'm sure maintain some skeptical thoughts, are genuinely encouraged by the changes that have been made. The key is believing you can win. I have played on teams where the coaches convinced us(the #1 job of a coach) that we could win. As soon as we started truly believing, we beat teams that, on paper, we had no business beating. How many here think that MM convinced the team that they could win last year? How much confidence did he spread by using JP as boot blocker for his own behind? Speaking to the original post, how did TD's year in and year out bs expectations - "coat of paint" - give the players, and us for that matter, any confidence? I leave with this: during the 90's we as fans truly believed we could win, no matter who was on the other side of the ball. The last game I was at, when the other team was near the endzones, it was like being at a baseball game, instead of the ear-drum shattering terror-drome RW(Rich) Stadium used to be. How about we take a look at our own attitude as fans, especially in the stands this year(I plan to fly up for at least two games), before we start criticizing others? 722045[/snapback] So there's a direct correlation between athletic ability of fans and optimism? Now I've heard everything. You left out talent, which is another key factor in winning. Pretty sure that played a role in me as a fan, believing we could win in the 90's. Your other post was even worse. The GM was fine and everything was the coach's fault last year? Because we had so much talent at the 3 most important positions - QB, OL, DL? Unfortunately none of those positions appear to have been upgraded much. We all hope JP becomes good, Triplett/McCargo pan out, and Reyes kicks ass; but it's hardly unreasonable to doubt the probability of these things.
NavyBillsFan Posted July 13, 2006 Posted July 13, 2006 well.... We been "rebuilding" for 10 years. Cant wait to see the finished product!
Nanker Posted July 13, 2006 Posted July 13, 2006 Of all the things MM did or didn't do, I still think that running Rusty Jones out of town ranks up there with Wade running Bruce DeHaven out and hiring idiot boy on the stupidity scale of what not to do as a head coach. I was really hoping that Marv would find a way to bring Rusty back. 722337[/snapback] I know what you mean, but I don't see Rusty coming back at any point.
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