Nall Most Impressive?

[Spiderweb]

I want this guy to be our QB.

1. Great with the press.

2. Experienced (played with FARVE!)

3. Can we really trust JP?

4. Great arm (better than JP, I think)

5. More likely to lead this team.

717811[/snapback]

 

Great with the press? Maybe, but 2-5 are nothing but wishful thinking....Pure speculation.

[eball]

What did Whitner cost us this year?  A first, right?

 

So Losman cost us a 1st, 2nd, and a 5th.  He cost us a 2nd and a 5th EXTRA.

Since we could have drafted someone else in the next years draft, that pick definately cost us.

 

Not that I care, I think it was a good pick, but he did cost the Bills 3 picks.

718210[/snapback]

Well, I guess we're arguing semantics. I don't view the "cost" of a player as the pick he was drafted with. The Bills "paid" for Losman with two picks -- the 2nd and 5th. They used a pick they already had -- 2004's 1st rounder, swapped for Dallas' 2003 1st rounder -- to select him.

[BillnutinHouston]

I want this guy to be our QB.

1. Great with the press.

2. Experienced (played with FARVE!)

3. Can we really trust JP?

4. Great arm (better than JP, I think)

5. More likely to lead this team.

717811[/snapback]

 

 

This is a joke, right?

[Bill from NYC]

Well, I guess we're arguing semantics.  I don't view the "cost" of a player as the pick he was drafted with.  The Bills "paid" for Losman with two picks -- the 2nd and 5th.  They used a pick they already had -- 2004's 1st rounder, swapped for Dallas' 2003 1st rounder -- to select him.

718213[/snapback]

 

That sir was my point.

 

Bad habit perhaps, but I often look at a players' value in terms of how much of our resources had to be allocated to obtain said player.

For example, Spikes was paid a king's ransom to play in Buffalo. Was/is he worth it? Yes, every dime.

Otoh, MW was selected at the #4 slot. Enough said.

 

Perhaps the above is why I am more critical of JP than say.....Jason Peters.

The Bills football teams that traded away these picks (and refused a tradedown for the #8) were teams with many needs, and a not so rich (by NFL standards) owner. Imo, the draft is our main method of filling our needs, and I am loathe to give away picks.

 

This (imo) places more importance on the development of players such as Whitner, and especially JP. If he can play, a football team can be built around him. If he can't, we lost out on other players who might have been able to produce at other areas of real need.

[Bill from NYC]

Bill, your silence was notable on the Jaworski-JP thread.  Are you so slanted these days that you don't give ANY credence to one of the best X-and-O analysts out there giving props to Losman?  Oh, I see, Jaworski didn't say that Losman "rubbed the vets the wrong way with his attitude" as you have previously opined.  He must have his head up his ass.  There's no way in hell Losman might have been !@#$ed with by Donahoe and Mularkey with their ridiculous "hand the job to him and then yank it away before you give him a chance" carnival last season, is there?

 

718209[/snapback]

 

I have never stated that JP was not smart, nor that he lacks any form of the talent needed to be a good quarterback. He has it all.....speed, brains, a strong arm, etc. We are both well aware of this. The thing is, he needs to produce, and soon imo.

 

As for who to "blame" for his poor play, I point the finger more at TD than MM. It appears to me that MM was but a puppet, with TD pulling the strings. JP was not ready for the job, and few could argue otherwise. I think that this move was orchestrated by TD.

People around the NFL seem to agree, because MM has a good job, and TD isn't doing much these days.

[Pyrite Gal]

This has already been answered...

in 2002, there were 6 AFC QBs who did not suffer 2nd-half-of-the-season meltdowns that kept their teams out of the playoffs. As such, all 6 were more worthy of the Pro Bowl than Drew.. lucky for him that voting closed weeks before the end of the season.

718162[/snapback]

 

Who were they?

[eball]

I have never stated that JP was not smart, nor that he lacks any form of the talent needed to be a good quarterback. He has it all.....speed, brains, a strong arm, etc. We are both well aware of this. The thing is, he needs to produce, and soon imo.

 

As for who to "blame" for his poor play, I point the finger more at TD than MM. It appears to me that MM was but a puppet, with TD pulling the strings. JP was not ready for the job, and few could argue otherwise. I think that this move was orchestrated by TD.

People around the NFL seem to agree, because MM has a good job, and TD isn't doing much these days.

718224[/snapback]

See, Bill, this is what's annoying. You write a paragraph like the first one above, yet at the same time you take EVERY opportunity to blast JP and/or the pick. Why? JP wasn't given a fair shake in '05, and he was injured in his rookie season. If the coaching staff had just let him play last year, we would be that much closer to knowing what we have. To randomly criticize JP for circumstances beyond his control is irresponsible. He is doing absolutely everything we would want or expect out of a player who is trying to get better and earn his paycheck. There are so many other players who could be rightfully called out, but quite simply, JP is not one of them.

 

I don't know if JP's "got it" as an NFL QB or not, but what kind of fan just randomly bashes a player who is unproven yet working his ass off? I repeat -- UNPROVEN.

[Pyrite Gal]

What did Whitner cost us this year?  A first, right?

 

So Losman cost us a 1st, 2nd, and a 5th.  He cost us a 2nd and a 5th EXTRA.

Since we could have drafted someone else in the next years draft, that pick definately cost us.

 

Not that I care, I think it was a good pick, but he did cost the Bills 3 picks.

718210[/snapback]

 

 

The QBs available in the next draft started with the sat for an excrutiatingly long wait to be drafted and the yet to pay any dividends (like JP) Rodgers. To date, the trade for JP has not been justified because JP has sucked, but on the face of it, giving up lowly draft resources to get JP and train him before he plays looks like a bad move because JP has not performed (yet?) but not at all becaise some other QB looked like he would have been a better choice than keeping and using our 1st round pick on a QB the next year.

 

Which QB would you have chosen with the Bills 2005 pick if it had not been traded for JP?

[HAMMER07]

I want this guy to be our QB.

1. Great with the press.

2. Experienced (played with FARVE!)

3. Can we really trust JP?

4. Great arm (better than JP, I think)

5. More likely to lead this team.

717811[/snapback]

 

We can't take anything you say seriously with that fruitcake playing the drums in your avatar, what a ferry.

[Rico]

Who were they?

718248[/snapback]

Let's see...

Peyton Manning

Chad Pennington

Tommy Maddox

Tim Couch

Rich Gannon

Steve McNair

 

Couch is the only suspect one, since Holcomb ended up winning the last 2 games that got them in the play-offs. I might give you that one... maybe.

 

And even though their teams didn't make the playoffs, I would say Tom Brady and Trent Green also had better overall years... remember Drew's 2nd half was quite awful.

 

So that's 7 definite and 1 maybe QBS who were more worthy of the Pro Bowl than Drew in 2002... if the voting had been held after the season ended, I doubt that he would've made it.

[Orton's Arm]

This (imo) places more importance on the development of players such as Whitner, and especially JP. If he can play, a football team can be built around him. If he can't, we lost out on other players who might have been able to produce at other areas of real need.

Gee, Bill, it almost sounds like you had a specific part of the team in mind when you wrote about "other areas of real need." The Bills could have used upgrades at OLB, TE, LDE, etc. But you know and I know that these weren't the positions you would have addressed with the three picks used on Losman. Something tells me you're less than happy about getting one thus far unsuccessful quarterback with picks that could instead have been used on three different offensive linemen!

[Bill from NYC]

Gee, Bill, it almost sounds like you had a specific part of the team in mind when you wrote about "other areas of real need."  The Bills could have used upgrades at OLB, TE, LDE, etc.  But you know and I know that these weren't the positions you would have addressed with the three picks used on Losman.  Something tells me you're less than happy about getting one thus far unsuccessful quarterback with picks that could instead have been used on three different offensive linemen!

718319[/snapback]

 

Yeah. Do you think that I am trying to hide something?

 

The Bills have been chasing injured/second rate TEs for years. Nothing has changed.

As for LDEs, I think that the combo of Kelsay/Denney is really not so bad. It would be great if they had DTs playing next to them. Oh, and Gray was a total idiot imo.

As for OLBs, a healthy Spikes would be a probowl caliber player, perhaps a Hall of Famer. I don't see the LB position as a problem that cannot be promptly addressed, do you?

 

There is one area with which I strongly agree with all of the JP apologists......he is NOT to blame for this mess.

[Pyrite Gal]

Let's see...

Peyton Manning

Chad Pennington

Tommy Maddox

Tim Couch

Rich Gannon

Steve McNair

 

Couch is the only suspect one, since Holcomb ended up winning the last 2 games that got them in the play-offs. I might give you that one... maybe.

 

And even though their teams didn't make the playoffs, I would say Tom Brady and Trent Green also had better overall years... remember Drew's 2nd half was quite awful.

 

So that's 7 definite and 1 maybe QBS who were more worthy of the Pro Bowl than Drew in 2002... if the voting had been held after the season ended, I doubt that he would've made it.

718314[/snapback]

 

I must have missed it when these names were given in reply to a fairly consistent question I've asked. It took a bit of looking, but I can see why this answer was not offered a lot because like the other personal opinions offered on TSW it is more than legitimate to assess a players play based on any fact-free opinion one my have.

 

However, the names you mention simply do not stand up very well under much scrutiny that looks to factual occurences or collection of stats to support an opinion. IMHO, stats are merely an indicator and do not show much conclusively, but in asnwer to the question which AFC QBs deserved the Pro Bowl reserve nod more than Bledsoe in 2002, the 8 names you offered do not stand up very well.

 

First, in answer to the question asked of who deserved the reserve Pro Bowl nod more than Bledsoe, two of the names offered can be quickly eliminated. Gannon did not deserve the reserve Pro Bowl nod because in fact he was the Pro Bowl starter after a tremendous couple of years. Manning also is eliminated by the question as he along with Bledsoe got a Pro Bowl reserve nod.

 

Second, in order to assess the play way back when in 2002, the usual good Internet source for stats was not immediately useful as NFL.com only shows links to past stats going back to 2003. The #s are probabably accessible to someone in some archive, but I'm not computer savvy enough to access these numbers easily so I will leave it someone smarter than I to find.

 

#s like NFL QB rankings were not available to me (the QB ranking is far from a perfect stat and ranling (and has little use comparing performance in different years as the rule and the game changes to make the game change in how pass-happy it is, yet event though it is not a perfect or even good ranking it is the best comprehensive ranking of QBs within a given year there is).

 

However, I was able to find listings of which QBs finished in the top 10 of particular individual QB stats. While no one stat is a good analogy at all for a QB's performance, it is useful to see where a QB finished in a variety of these categories and to form one's opinion based at least in part on these facts.

 

Specifically, the Bledsoe 02 rankings were these:

 

Completions- 3rd out of 10 in the AFC

Attepts- 2nd

Yards- 2nd

TD- Passes- 7th

 

Agaim this collection of individual stats does not conclusively prove anything, but they can give one a fair sense of a level of achievement that year and in comparing individual QBs give one some guidance on how a QB compares to his peers. There are a number of obvious limitations to any of the individual stats and what it can say about individual performance by a QB. For example one might have a bazillion attempts but often miss the receiver by a mile and leading this category this in not an accurate analogy for being a good QB,

 

Yet, this number can indicate a bit as if one throws but throws badly, it is doubtful you will get much of chance to attempt a lot as you will be benched. One can look to the completion average when you see the attempts number is high and draw some more rational conclusions by looking at these and other numbers. The number of TDs may be high because one's recievers are good and get good RAC on short passesm or the number can be low despite the QB being effective because he throws a bunch of completions to move downfield and then his runner puvnced it in.

 

The bottom line is think about all these indicators.

 

The other QBs who did not get the Pro Bowl reserve nod among those you mentioned:

 

Chad Pennington- Tied for 8th in passing TDs but not among top 10 QBs in any other of these categories

Tommy Maddox- Did not finish in top 10 of any of these categories

Tim Couch- Did not finish in top 10 of any of these categories

Steve McNair- 10 th in completions and tied for 8th in TDs.

 

Maybe this just means that these stats and the Pro Bowl nod are not good measures of good QBs and Maddox, Pennington and Couch are better QBs than folks who got the Pro Bowl nod and did well in these categories like Gannon, Manning and Bledsoe.

 

Lets look at the other two QBs you mention:

 

Brady- 3rd in attempts, 4th on completions, 6th in yards and 1st in passing TDs

Green- 7th in passing yards and tied for 5th in passing TDs.

 

This was interesting to me in that it showed the failings of either these stats as measures or of Pro Bowl nods regarding Brady. Given Brady's success in leading his team to wins of the SB in 2001, 03 and 04, I'm inclined to think that these stats are a good measure of a good QB more than the popularity contest of a Pro Bowl nod is a good measure.

 

When the two disagree, I'm inclined to supporty Brady as the better candidate for the Pro Bowl nod over Bledsoe..

 

Still the notion that any of the e candidates you name are likely candidates to deseve the Pro Bowl nod more than Bledsoe seems pretty doubtful in all cases.

 

In the end, this issue is a surrogate for the question of who is the better QB. As this game is definitely a form of entertainment, different folks are entertained by different people. In the real world is does not strike me as impossible or a contradiction at all that different people judge differet players to be the better player or QV in this particular case.

 

If folks chose to live in the illusion that there is a right or wrong answer based on some externally judgable criteria that is fine. However, people need to recognize that the outside criteria is determined by the NFL and not really by them as fans beyond the powers that the NFL gives them. Ironically, the league gives them 1/3 the power to select Pro Bowl nominees and this is the final word.

 

Who were the 3 best QBs in the AFC in 2002. The answer is clear. Gannon, Manning and Bledsoe.

 

Folks once again have every right to their opinion and they can say the NFL was wrong.. However, they do damage to their own case when they make the claim that Bledsoe is a complete loser who cannot do anything write or is a loser.

 

Bledsoe easily was in the top half of QBs in the AFC in 2002. It actually is hard to credibly debate he is not in the top quarter of QBs in the AFC that year.

 

As far as the second half power outage it is clear that Bledsoe's production dropped in the second half of 2002. However, the theory that he simply threw himself out and he foundered because he was too old raises two key pieces of evidence which say this probably was not the case.

 

1. In the game toward the end of the season against Cincinnati, Bledsoe put on a very good show passing the ball. He dompleted 23of 31.He threw for 231 yards and 4 TD passes. Actually if the Pro Bowl vote occured after this final game and voters carried these stats or that recollection into balloting, he probably would have won the popularity contest of getting into the Pro Bowl.

 

2. The Bledsoe production drop is explained better by his faciing NE and VV exploiting him badly in 2 of the last 8 games and by incredibly bad weather that destroyed every QB playing in games against SD here and in GB, Farve went on record saying it was the coldest weather he had ever seem in GB as he weent 15 of 33 for 114 yards. Brees was so bad in the SD game they sat him in favor of a late Flutie appearance.

 

I do not offer these as excuses since Bledsoe simply failed in the GB game and got tore a new one by Beliheck. However, these were reasons why things happened like they did and the fact simply is that Bledsoe had a very good year in 2002.

 

His performance sucked so badly running a predictable Bills O in 2003 that it was IMHO opinon time to call one good year and one bad year a wash and cut him while the contract situation was least damaging for us.

 

Some fans were so ticked at the stupidity of TD extending him that they have conjured a view in their mind that Bledsoe sucled in all ways. This simply is not supported by the reality. Bledsoe has failings and good aspects. TC showed us that by getting far more out of Bledsoe as a QB in 2004. Still this was not good enough as TD was one of those who drank the Kool-Aid of fanlike expectation that Bledsoe was gonna carry this team. He cannot.

 

However, with Parcells running the show in Dallas, I think there is a better than even chance that Bledsoe once again plays QB on a team which makes the playoffs.

 

We'll see.

[Oneonta Buffalo Fan]

We can't take anything you say seriously with that fruitcake playing the drums in your avatar, what a ferry.

718273[/snapback]

 

Oh haha. I don't see yours. I will be laughing so hard IF, Nall is the starting qb and he does pretty well. The only reasons why I'm not sold on Jp is that he's unproven and I have questions about his accuracy. Once I see that then I will take everything back about what I said about Jp and Nall.

[Dibs]

2002 G GS ATT COM % YDS YPA TD INT QBR

Bledsoe

Bills 16 16 610 375 61.5 4359 7.15 24 15 86.0

 

Pennington

Jets 15 12 399 275 68.9 3120 7.82 22 6 104.2

 

Maddox

Steelers 15 11 377 234 62.1 2836 7.52 20 16 85.2

 

McNair

Titans 16 16 492 301 61.2 3387 6.88 22 15 84.0

 

Couch?...you can't be serious.

 

Pennington & Maddox did not start the 1st 4 & 3 games respectively. This means that at vote time for the pro-bowl they had probably played only 7 & 8 games.

I think there is an arguement that their seasons were more worthy than DBs but his stats at the time of voting would have looked awesome....it would not have included the last 5 games.

Like many at the time I viewed McNair as a lesser talent & in hindsight I feel he should have made the PB that season.

Personally I feel that Bledsoes awesome 1st half blinded many at the time(myself included).

[MadBuffaloDisease]

Oh haha.   I don't see yours.  I will be laughing so hard IF, Nall is the starting qb and he does pretty well.  The only reasons why I'm not sold on Jp is that he's unproven and I have questions about his accuracy.   Once I see that then I will take everything back about what I said about Jp and Nall.

Kind of hard to say that Nall is proven OR accurate, considering he's played during the regular season only once during his first 4 years in the NFL (2004), and has thrown only 33 passes (completing 23 of them for a 69.7% rate).

[Dibs]

Kind of hard to say that Nall is proven OR accurate, considering he's played during the regular season only once during his first 4 years in the NFL (2004), and has thrown only 33 passes (completing 23 of them for a 69.7% rate).

718435[/snapback]

WOW....69.7% accuracy!!!!

He's Fantastic!!!

[Beerball]

Scout.com is a reputible site..but any article is only as good as where the info comes from... Still, thought this was interesting

 

http://story.scout.com/a.z?s=126&p=2&c=544132

 

Another player to watch on the offensive side of the ball is TE Robert Royal who was essentially used as a blocker previously with the Washington Redskins. Royal, a former fifth-round pick in 2002, had a very good week of Senior Bowl practices so it was a surprise to some that he wasn’t used more as a receiver in the first four years of his career (29 catches). With the club lacking a physical presence at the receiver position, Royal’s role with his new team could certainly increase.

717770[/snapback]

Count me among those hoping that Royal makes a meaningful contribution to the passing game, but common man, mentioning that a 5th year player had a good week of Sr. Bowl practices? How stuupid is that?

[stuckincincy]

Count me among those hoping that Royal makes a meaningful contribution to the passing game, but common man, mentioning that a 5th year player had a good week of Sr. Bowl practices?  How stuupid is that?

718456[/snapback]

 

Royal Pudding!

[The Tomcat]

Count me among those hoping that Royal makes a meaningful contribution to the passing game, but common man, mentioning that a 5th year player had a good week of Sr. Bowl practices?  How stuupid is that?

718456[/snapback]

 

 

I thought the same thing....

 

I think JP will start, Nall will backup, someone else will be #3......Buh-Bye Holcky Polky...