What does Marv really think?

[Dibs]

This is my 500th post so I thought I’d put together something with a little more depth than a normal run of the mill post.

I have recently read MARV LEVY: WHERE ELSE WOULD YOU RATHER BE? His autobiography for those wondering.

 

There has been much discussion following his selection as Bills GM so I thought I’d supply some quotes from his book on relevant topics.

 

Marv Levy: “What it takes to win is simple – but it isn’t easy!”

 

PLAYER CHARACTER

 

The stay-out-late guys are easy to spot. They show up at practice at the last minute, and they often doze through the team meetings. A general listlessness begins to dull their performance. They never reach their potential, and only rarely does this type of player ever mend his ways. How do you motivate a person like this? You don’t! I readily admit that there is a secret involved in how to motivate NFL players. It’s simple. Bring only intrinsically motivated players onto your roster. They hunger for guidance. They’ll observe, and they’ll listen when you show them and when you tell them how they can get better. I have found that the high lifers enjoy short careers. As I have often told our players, “You can’t hoot with the owls at night if you want to soar with the eagles during the day.”

 

Bill(Polian) and I had both agreed that high character and good attitude needed to be essential ingredients in the makeup on any players brought onto the roster…Norm(Pollum) tried one last time.

“Marv, if you take my guy, I guarantee you he’ll go to the Pro Bowl.”

“Norm,” I countered, “I want to pick someone who is going to help us go to the Super Bowl!”

Note:- Marv won & the player they ended up picking was Shane Conlan.

 

PLAYER POTENTIAL

 

Big money! For a guy with “potential.” That is too heavy a gamble to take.

“Potential” is an imposter. Potential has gotten more coaches fired than injuries have. Potential has served to erode the credibility of many general managers.

 

YOUNG QBs

 

I cannot find exact quotes but Marv is clear in his belief that young QBs should be allowed to develop slowly. A year or three learning as a backup is his ideal setup for a young QB. Let him learn the ropes without the pressures of having to be the savior.

 

TEAM BUILDING

 

…any team that adopts the philosophy that they are “building for the future” is always building for the future.

This next point is in reference to being HC not GM but I feel is relevant. …if you sacrifice this season in order to build for the future, what you are really doing is building for a future coach.

 

GENERAL MANAGERING

 

…a sensitive touch in dealing with the players…That is a trait that all good general managers possess. It is a difficult quality to refine, and there are many general managers – well qualified on every other count – who do not succeed because they come to be viewed by the players as being antagonistic. Those general managers who treat the players fairly, who tell them the truth, and who feel and display a personal interest in sincerely getting to know them individually are the GMs who succeed.

This next is in reference to being both a GM & HC.

Any coach who thinks he can handle all duties required by both of those positions is a fool. How do I know that? Because when I agreed to take on that additional role, I became one of those fools.

Marv was both HC & GM of the Montreal Alouettes in 1974.

 

DEFENSE WINS

 

When an outstanding offensive team meets an outstanding defensive team, the defense will win every time.

One of the reasons I believe so strongly in defense is that there is more consistency of performance. Offenses have off days. Freakish plays occur in the kicking game. But defenses tend to play at the same level, game in and game out.

We were always desirous of increasing our depth and improving our talent along our defensive line…

“Offense sells tickets. Kicking wins games. Defense wins championships.”

[Fla Bills Fan]

This is my 500th post so I thought I’d put together something with a little more depth than a normal run of the mill post.

I have recently read MARV LEVY: WHERE ELSE WOULD YOU RATHER BE?  His autobiography for those wondering.

 

There has been much discussion following his selection as Bills GM so I thought I’d supply some quotes from his book on relevant topics.

 

Marv Levy: “What it takes to win is simple – but it isn’t easy!”

 

PLAYER CHARACTER

 

The stay-out-late guys are easy to spot.  They show up at practice at the last minute, and they often doze through the team meetings.  A general listlessness begins to dull their performance.  They never reach their potential, and only rarely does this type of player ever mend his ways.  How do you motivate a person like this?  You don’t!  I readily admit that there is a secret involved in how to motivate NFL players.  It’s simple.  Bring only intrinsically motivated players onto your roster.  They hunger for guidance.  They’ll observe, and they’ll listen when you show them and when you tell them how they can get better.  I have found that the high lifers enjoy short careers.  As I have often told our players, “You can’t hoot with the owls at night if you want to soar with the eagles during the day.”

 

Bill(Polian) and I had both agreed that high character and good attitude needed to be essential ingredients in the makeup on any players brought onto the roster…Norm(Pollum) tried one last time.

“Marv, if you take my guy, I guarantee you he’ll go to the Pro Bowl.”

“Norm,” I countered, “I want to pick someone who is going to help us go to the Super Bowl!” 

Note:- Marv won & the player they ended up picking was Shane Conlan.

 

PLAYER POTENTIAL

 

Big money!  For a guy with “potential.”  That is too heavy a gamble to take.

“Potential” is an imposter.  Potential has gotten more coaches fired than injuries have.  Potential has served to erode the credibility of many general managers.

 

YOUNG QBs

 

I cannot find exact quotes but Marv is clear in his belief that young QBs should be allowed to develop slowly.  A year or three learning as a backup is his ideal setup for a young QB.  Let him learn the ropes without the pressures of having to be the savior.

 

TEAM BUILDING

 

…any team that adopts the philosophy that they are “building for the future” is always building for the future. 

          This next point is in reference to being HC not GM but I feel is relevant.  …if you sacrifice this season in order to build for the future, what you are really doing is building for a future coach.

 

GENERAL MANAGERING

 

…a sensitive touch in dealing with the players…That is a trait that all good general managers possess.  It is a difficult quality to refine, and there are many general managers – well qualified on every other count – who do not succeed because they come to be viewed by the players as being antagonistic.  Those general managers who treat the players fairly, who tell them the truth, and who feel and display a personal interest in sincerely getting to know them individually are the GMs who succeed.

          This next is in reference to being both a GM & HC.

Any coach who thinks he can handle all duties required by both of those positions is a fool.  How do I know that?  Because when I agreed to take on that additional role, I became one of those fools.

Marv was both HC & GM of the Montreal Alouettes in 1974.

 

DEFENSE WINS

 

When an outstanding offensive team meets an outstanding defensive team, the defense will win every time.

      One of the reasons I believe so strongly in defense is that there is more consistency of performance.  Offenses have off days.  Freakish plays occur in the kicking game.  But defenses tend to play at the same level, game in and game out.

        We were always desirous of increasing our depth and improving our talent along our defensive line…

“Offense sells tickets.  Kicking wins games.  Defense wins championships.”

717581[/snapback]

Great post, thanks.

[mead107]

long post but , very good . i did read it all .congrats on 500

[BUFFALOTONE]

long post but , very good . i did read it all .congrats on 500

717628[/snapback]

 

Long post? Have you ever read a pyrate girl before?

 

Anyway nice post, I am looking forward to reading the whole book.

[PromoTheRobot]

What did Marv think of Jim Kelly? He was like a manager at the Pierce Arrow...because he would close the place down every night!

 

PTR

[Coach Tuesday]

Good post. The guy definitely has a philosophy, which is more than can be said for many GMs. Time will tell whether it will succeed or not.

 

It does explain why this year's draft was so defense-heavy...

[SuperBills12]

DEFENSE WINS

 

When an outstanding offensive team meets an outstanding defensive team, the defense will win every time.

One of the reasons I believe so strongly in defense is that there is more consistency of performance. Offenses have off days. Freakish plays occur in the kicking game. But defenses tend to play at the same level, game in and game out.

We were always desirous of increasing our depth and improving our talent along our defensive line…

“Offense sells tickets. Kicking wins games. Defense wins championships.”

 

Hmmm....so why then all those years did we have Walt Corey's "bend but don't break" defense??? If we had a defense, we would have beat the Giants in the Superbowl

[pjd]

I have watched and listened to Marv Levy for many years, most recently on "coaches corner" or whatever NFL Network calls its show, and , as have many before me, been struck by his almost excessive quotes summing up and substituting for statements. For many, many years we have learned from our elders by their

passing down of wisdom learned the same way, admittedly it takes many generations to absorb even a modicum of intelligence, which brings me to the point of this post. Is it possible that our beloved leader has no thoughts of his own? Does a Princeton or Harvard education preclude originality?

With our mentality of "win baby win" if our GM makes an enjoyable product of our team, I am sure he, and any who read this, will forgive my mild criticism and

accept my apologies.

[IDBillzFan]

Bring only intrinsically motivated players onto your roster.  They hunger for guidance.  They’ll observe, and they’ll listen when you show them and when you tell them how they can get better.

717581[/snapback]

Man, I'm gonna miss McGahee.

[Dibs]

Hmmm....so why then all those years did we have Walt Corey's "bend but don't break" defense??? If we had a defense, we would have beat the Giants in the Superbowl

717747[/snapback]

Hmmm, that maybe so but leading up to that first SB loss, Marv had brought in...

Shane Conlan

Cornelius Bennett

Nate Odomes

Jeff Wright

 

He also had...

Bruce Smith

Mark Kelso

Darryl Talley

 

I'm sure there are other top talents that I've forgotten off hand that were on that team.

He might have used the wrong defensive system but I don't think....

A) Anyone can say it wasn't at least a 'good' defense.

B) If it was not a dominant defense, it was not for lack of bringing in good players.

Remember how much he agreed to give up to obtain the #2 draft pick Cornelius Bennett?

[Oneonta Buffalo Fan]

Well I just got my 600th post just an hour ago. I wonder what Marv is thinking?

 

Lets see, praise for me and seeing a winning season by his most beloved team!

[jarthur31]

Man, I'm gonna miss McGahee.

717792[/snapback]

 

Why? How many PB has he made or even played close to that level?

[krazykat]

This is my 500th post so I thought I’d put together something with a little more depth than a normal run of the mill post.

I have recently read MARV LEVY: WHERE ELSE WOULD YOU RATHER BE?  His autobiography for those wondering.

 

There has been much discussion following his selection as Bills GM so I thought I’d supply some quotes from his book on relevant topics.

 

Marv Levy: “What it takes to win is simple – but it isn’t easy!”

 

PLAYER CHARACTER

 

The stay-out-late guys are easy to spot.  They show up at practice at the last minute, and they often doze through the team meetings.  A general listlessness begins to dull their performance.  They never reach their potential, and only rarely does this type of player ever mend his ways.  How do you motivate a person like this?  You don’t!  I readily admit that there is a secret involved in how to motivate NFL players.  It’s simple.  Bring only intrinsically motivated players onto your roster.  They hunger for guidance.  They’ll observe, and they’ll listen when you show them and when you tell them how they can get better.  I have found that the high lifers enjoy short careers.  As I have often told our players, “You can’t hoot with the owls at night if you want to soar with the eagles during the day.”

 

Bill(Polian) and I had both agreed that high character and good attitude needed to be essential ingredients in the makeup on any players brought onto the roster…Norm(Pollum) tried one last time.

“Marv, if you take my guy, I guarantee you he’ll go to the Pro Bowl.”

“Norm,” I countered, “I want to pick someone who is going to help us go to the Super Bowl!” 

Note:- Marv won & the player they ended up picking was Shane Conlan.

 

PLAYER POTENTIAL

 

Big money!  For a guy with “potential.”  That is too heavy a gamble to take.

“Potential” is an imposter.  Potential has gotten more coaches fired than injuries have.  Potential has served to erode the credibility of many general managers.

 

YOUNG QBs

 

I cannot find exact quotes but Marv is clear in his belief that young QBs should be allowed to develop slowly.  A year or three learning as a backup is his ideal setup for a young QB.  Let him learn the ropes without the pressures of having to be the savior.

 

TEAM BUILDING

 

…any team that adopts the philosophy that they are “building for the future” is always building for the future. 

          This next point is in reference to being HC not GM but I feel is relevant.  …if you sacrifice this season in order to build for the future, what you are really doing is building for a future coach.

 

GENERAL MANAGERING

 

…a sensitive touch in dealing with the players…That is a trait that all good general managers possess.  It is a difficult quality to refine, and there are many general managers – well qualified on every other count – who do not succeed because they come to be viewed by the players as being antagonistic.  Those general managers who treat the players fairly, who tell them the truth, and who feel and display a personal interest in sincerely getting to know them individually are the GMs who succeed.

          This next is in reference to being both a GM & HC.

Any coach who thinks he can handle all duties required by both of those positions is a fool.  How do I know that?  Because when I agreed to take on that additional role, I became one of those fools.

Marv was both HC & GM of the Montreal Alouettes in 1974.

 

DEFENSE WINS

 

When an outstanding offensive team meets an outstanding defensive team, the defense will win every time.

      One of the reasons I believe so strongly in defense is that there is more consistency of performance.  Offenses have off days.  Freakish plays occur in the kicking game.  But defenses tend to play at the same level, game in and game out.

        We were always desirous of increasing our depth and improving our talent along our defensive line…

“Offense sells tickets.  Kicking wins games.  Defense wins championships.”

717581[/snapback]

 

Marv isn't as smart as he and many fans seem to believe he is.

 

…a sensitive touch in dealing with the players…That is a trait that all good general managers possess. It is a difficult quality to refine, and there are many general managers – well qualified on every other count – who do not succeed because they come to be viewed by the players as being antagonistic. Those general managers who treat the players fairly, who tell them the truth, and who feel and display a personal interest in sincerely getting to know them individually are the GMs who succeed.

 

How the hell does he know. Does he have a wealth of GM experience?

 

I cannot find exact quotes but Marv is clear in his belief that young QBs should be allowed to develop slowly. A year or three learning as a backup is his ideal setup for a young QB. Let him learn the ropes without the pressures of having to be the savior.

 

When Marv coached he didn't believe in any rookies playing much. You are correct. This also shows how out of touch he is today.

 

Big money! For a guy with “potential.” That is too heavy a gamble to take.

“Potential” is an imposter. Potential has gotten more coaches fired than injuries have. Potential has served to erode the credibility of many general managers.

 

Yeah, much too risky! Marv's philosophy is to overpay guys that other teams didn't even bother to make an effort to retain and to give guys like Tripplet who couldn't hold down a starting job $20M for five years. Got it?

 

Oh, and don't forget Fowler, another backup, $7.2M for 3 years at C. Robert Royal, a TE with questionable hands, $2M/yr. in an offense that is shaping up to be mostly a passing offense.

 

But his philosophy is not to pay for potential. Understand?

 

Marv's a fool. Really, he's a fool.

[krazykat]

Hmmm, that maybe so but leading up to that first SB loss, Marv had brought in...

Shane Conlan

Cornelius Bennett

Nate Odomes

Jeff Wright

 

He also had...

Bruce Smith

Mark Kelso

Darryl Talley

 

I'm sure there are other top talents that I've forgotten off hand that were on that team.

He might have used the wrong defensive system but I don't think....

A) Anyone can say it wasn't at least a 'good' defense.

B) If it was not a dominant defense, it was not for lack of bringing in good players.

Remember how much he agreed to give up to obtain the #2 draft pick Cornelius Bennett?

718155[/snapback]

 

Wrong! Marv was against bringing Bennett to Buffalo. He's even said so himself.

 

Polian was the man responsible for most of that. Marv was handed a Cadillac already running.

 

If Marv were half the coach that everyone thinks he is then he would have won a super bowl. He also wouldn't have a losing record other than the four seasons that we did go to the super bowl and in 13 of his 17 total seasons coached.

[Dibs]

Marv isn't as smart as he and many fans seem to believe he is....

....Marv's a fool.  Really, he's a fool.

718242[/snapback]

I tried to not put a positive or a negative spin into this thread when I wrote it. I tried simply to place quotes from the book into appropriate topics. Since you assume a slant on my post I'll take the time to address yours.

How the hell does he know.  Does he have a wealth of GM experience? 

Marv has a small amount of GM experience but surely if you have worked for so long with GMs (which he has), he can formulate an opinion on what makes a good one.

Most of us work all our lives under a 'boss'. We may never become bosses ourselves but would all feel quite qualified to put forward theories on what makes a good one or a bad one due to years of working under one.

When Marv coached he didn't believe in any rookies playing much.  You are correct.  This also shows how out of touch he is today.

I stated his ideal setup for a young QB. He actually acknowledged in the book how free agency has changed the game & that his ideal setup is not usually achievable anymore.

 

Big money! For a guy with “potential.”

I'll put this into the context that was meant....

By 'potential' he was referring to the Ryan Leaf type of situation. The situation many teams find themselves in where they delay progression year after year 'waiting' for the potential of their 'investment' to realize.

i.e. if JP shows little improvement this year & we persist with him because he 'could be great', we would be falling into the trap Marv was talking about.

 

Marv may well prove to be a fool & your comments on his FA acquisitions my be very insightful, however, he just might prove you wrong.

I don't know weather he will or won't but I sure hope he does.

[Dibs]

Wrong!  Marv was against bringing Bennett to Buffalo.  He's even said so himself. 

 

Polian was the man responsible for most of that.  Marv was handed a Cadillac already running. 

 

If Marv were half the coach that everyone thinks he is then he would have won a super bowl.  He also wouldn't have a losing record other than the four seasons that we did go to the super bowl and in 13 of his 17 total seasons coached.

718243[/snapback]

 

Marv had final say on all personnel matters. If he had not given the O.K. on...geez...every personnel acquisition, they would not have gone ahead. This is not to say he did all the work involved in finding them, or even any of the work, he just made the final 'yes' or 'no' to the trade or draft pick based on the information given.

This makes me really wonder whether he(Marv) or his head coach(DJ) have the final say at the moment on personnel decisions. I assume it is DJ since when Marv was a HC he insisted on it but....does anybody know?

 

Please excuse that I sound like I know him personally....I'm simply responding by what I have recently read in the book.

 

Edit:- Against bringing Bennett??? What you said only just sunk in.

According to Marv(in the book) He was salivating(my words) over Bennet but since we only had the #8 pick & Bennett was going at #2 we picked Shane Conlan instead. When Bennett would not sign with Indi, Polian orchestrated the famous 3 way trade. Marv (happily) gave the go ahead to give up 2 1st round picks plus players to get him. There is no way he did not want Bennett on his squad.

Edited July 5, 2006 by Dibs

[2003Contenders]

What did Marv think of Jim Kelly?  He was like a manager at the Pierce Arrow...because he would close the place down every night!

 

PTR

717730[/snapback]

 

 

That's a good point -- and I think it may point toward Marv's flexibility as a coach. That is, he was willing to tolerate "some" level of misbehavior with his star players (i.e. Kelly and Bruce), since he knew that they were ultimately self motivated enough to show up ready to play each and every Sunday. That's a point that may have been lost on Andy Redi, for example, last year when he decided to take TO to task, rather than just ignore him and let him do his thing on Sundays.

[Pyrite Gal]

Yeah, much too risky!  Marv's philosophy is to overpay guys that other teams didn't even bother to make an effort to retain and to give guys like Tripplet who couldn't hold down a starting job $20M for five years.  Got it? 

 

Oh, and don't forget Fowler, another backup, $7.2M for 3 years at C.  Robert Royal, a TE with questionable hands, $2M/yr. in an offense that is shaping up to be mostly a passing offense. 

 

But his philosophy is not to pay for potential.  Understand? 

 

Marv's a fool.  Really, he's a fool.

718242[/snapback]

 

I think you misassess several players and misstate the reality of their situations (not simply in terms of opinions about them but in terms of the facts and events pf their careers).

 

1. You jump to big conclusions to assume that Indy was deciding who to keep or not keep purely based on ability. Even wth the cap going way up, they need to do some of the most careful salary balancing in theNFL due to the enormoyus cap hit needed to keep Manning and Harrison.

 

They lost one of the most accurate kickers ever in Vanderjagt (though like many kickers he is a loon tune) and lost Edggerin James (who I think they would love to have at even reasonable money but AZ set the market at an unreasonable level for him. To replace Vanderjagt they spent a gazillion on Vinateri. What this results in re: Triplett is that obviously simply judging his talent based on whether they signed him or not is a bit simplistic. There is a whole dance of team building happening here that influenced their decision making.

 

The factual occurences on Triplett are:

 

A. The choice for the Colts was to spend big buck on Triplett to be in rotation with Corey Simon or not. Being worse than Simon does not make one a bad player.

B. In fewer games he put up tackle and sack numbers which actually were quite comparable to totals registered by Simon and RDT Reagor. The market seemed to judge him worthy of fulltime starter money but the Colts could not afford to pay him fulltime starter money.

C. In addition to the DT jam, the Colts are also committed to laying big bucks when they have to on the DL to Dwight Freeney.

 

Reality is simply more complicated than viewing this as the Colts passed on Triplett because he is merely a back-up quality player.

 

2. The reality on Fowler is also more complex than the simple declaration of him as a back-up.

 

A. He was backing up Matt Birk of the Vikes last year who was IR'ed by them with a number of serious though not career ending injuries. Birk is back now and it does not mean a player sucks when he fails to unseat a multi-time Pro Bowler at a position.

 

B. He was acquired in a short-term FA deal by the Vikes because they wanted but had their doubts about long-time Birk back-up Cory Withrow. It turned out to be a good move for them as the team was 1-3 under Withrow and Fowler unseated him. Culpepper's performance improved behind Fowler rather than Withrow, but the important thing is the team zipped off a 6 gamw W streak once Brad Johnson lined up behind Fowler.

 

While it seems unreasonable to give too much credit to Fowler for the turnaround (even though it generally coincided with Fowler coming in and began before Johnson came in), it is interesting that the tuirnaround ended and the team fell short of the playoffs with Fowler out and Johnson in.

 

Again, simply dismissing Fowler as a back-up or reject does not accurately state the full situtaion.

 

3. Folks seem to want to classify Royal as a back-up for some reason when the fact is he started 14 of the 15 games he played for the Skins last year. Folks also seem to make some complaints about his hands which seems to ignore the likely fact he was acquired by us for his blocking talents in a horrid pass protection OL and to provide blocking for WM.

 

He actually was highlighed on the Skins board as a redzone threat in 2004 when he took in 4 TDs and set a personal best for him in receptions last year as Gibbs always has used him as a blocker first, a red zone threat second and a pass catcher third. The scuttlebutt is that the Skins wanted Royal back and that Gibbs expressed public disappointment when he want to the Bills. Are there some set of facts or events that drive these Royal complaints from some fans?

 

There may be some question as to who is the fool around here.

[Scraps]

Hmmm, that maybe so but leading up to that first SB loss, Marv had brought in...

Shane Conlan

Cornelius Bennett

Nate Odomes

Jeff Wright

 

He also had...

Bruce Smith

Mark Kelso

Darryl Talley

 

I'm sure there are other top talents that I've forgotten off hand that were on that team.

He might have used the wrong defensive system but I don't think....

A) Anyone can say it wasn't at least a 'good' defense.

B) If it was not a dominant defense, it was not for lack of bringing in good players.

Remember how much he agreed to give up to obtain the #2 draft pick Cornelius Bennett?

718155[/snapback]

 

Going right to the middle of the line, I would suggest that one of the reasons those Bills defenses were not dominant was because of Jeff Wright. I like the guy but he was small for a nose tackle. There is a reason why the Bills defense improved tremendously when Ted Washington was acquired.

 

It pains me to see Marv repeating this mistake.