K-9 Posted June 28, 2006 Share Posted June 28, 2006 Deon Sanders and Mike Vick. 715482[/snapback] I'll give you Vick, but you couldn't be more wrong about Sanders. Greatest CB to EVER play the game. EVER. He redefined the position. He took away a third of the field for the opposing passing game. You had to see it in person to appreciate that. Nobody's done that before. Or since. You don't think that shortens the field for the D? Cause headaches for OCs? People rip him cause he's a public jerk and didn't like to tackle. But I've talked to some people about him in the locker room and he was very well liked and respected as the consumate team guy in the locker room. Especially on the Yankees believe it or not. Worked his ass off, too. As for not tackling, if I were his coach I'd tell him what all his coaches did, don't get hurt making a tackle. Arm tackle, turn it in to the pursuit, whatever, just don't get hurt. Ever see anyone run down Don Beebe FROM BEHIND, WHITHOUT AN ANGLE, to save a for sure TD kickoff return? I didn't think it could be done. But Sanders did it. And made it look easy. Scary fast player. Like I said, best CB to ever lace 'em up. GO BILLS!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H2o Posted June 28, 2006 Share Posted June 28, 2006 I'll agree with K-9's Deon asessment. I think he was faster in pads than Ben Johnson was on Steroids. In his prime, he was the poster-boy of what a shut-down corner actually was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoondckCL Posted June 28, 2006 Author Share Posted June 28, 2006 I agree with the Deon Sanders argument, the guy couldn't tackle to save his life, i would need to think about it more to give you a good answer for all time. I think Steve McNair could be a possibility for present day, and by present day i mean last year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajzepp Posted June 28, 2006 Share Posted June 28, 2006 Brett Favre. Although he had a great career. 715126[/snapback] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hollywood Donahoe Posted June 28, 2006 Share Posted June 28, 2006 I wouldn't say "led", HD. I'd say he's damn lucky he was on a good team. "Good?" In the offseason before the 2001 season, a PFW article listed the results of an anonymous poll of NFL executives and front office types regarding which teams were least likely to make the Super Bowl in the next five years. The Patriots were voted as the least likely. Brady - at least in the early portions of his career - was not on a good team, but on one that was likely among the worst in the league. Let's say a running back fumbles the ball three times in eleven games. That running back would get the reputation of having poor hands. Let's say that running back fumbled the ball in the endzone three times in eleven games, not just at crucial times in playoff games, but in eleven regular season games. That running back would never be allowed to touch a football again. So, here we have the vastly overrated Tom Brady throwing three endzone picks in eleven playoff games. On two of those occasions his defense bails him out. Once is a mistake. Twice is bad luck. Three times is a pattern of incompetence. A ridiculous comparison, surely formed out of either abject stupidity or extreme intellectual dishonesty. QBs, on average, throw far more INTs than do RBs fumble. The numbers bear this out. The top 30 passers in the NFL last year averaged 11.8 INTs. The top 30 rushers of 2005 fumbled 2.4 times on average. Thus, 3 fumbles in 11 games would be a significant statistic, since the average rusher fumbles only 2.4 times per full 16 game season. However, 3 INTs in 11 games is far below average (it averages out to 4.4 INTs in a full 16 game season), and therefore is not statistically significant, at least in terms of proving that the thrower of said 3 INTs is deficient as a passer. If anything, it proves how deft the passer is at not turning the ball over. Back in the 2001 season, Brady threw a single TD in the playoffs. One. He ran for one as well. Don't forget that. In 2002 the Pats didn't make the playoffs. So, he basically "led" them nowhere. I don't recall claiming that Brady has led the Patriots to the playoffs every year. In any event, 4 playoff trips in 5 years is impressive, even more so when those 4 trips result in 3 SBs and a postseason record of 10-1. In the 2003 playoffs, Mr. Overrated threw two TDs in the playoff games leading up to the Superbowl, with the majority of the Pats' points coming off of Vinatieri's foot, or the Defense. A record of 2-0 in the aforementioned games indicates that Brady was doing something right, even if it was only avoiding costly turnovers and helping his team to win the field position battle in adverse conditions. In the SB, he did everything he could to throw that game away (as per LA's post), and was bailed out by Vinatieri and the defense yet again. LA and I have been over this a number of times. In fact, I'll dig up an old post as a rebuttal: I would like you to explain how the defense bailed Brady out of [the SB XXXVIII INT], given that: - the defense gave up a LOOOOOOONG go-ahead TD 3 plays after the INT. - Brady immediately put the Pats back up with a flawless TD drive that ended with a TD pass. - the defense quickly surrendered the lead, allowing a long TD drive to tie the game. - Brady led the Pats into FG range on another great drive with time running out. As you can, the actual sequence of events doesn't support you claim that Brady was bailed out of his INT by anyone but himself. The fact that you use that game as a negative is laughable, given that Brady threw for 350+ yards and 3 TDs, and set a Super Bowl record for completions. Yes, he had two TDs against the Eagles in the SB, but, once again the game was won on the foot of Vinatieri. Won on the foot of Vinatieri? They were up by 10 until the defense went into sieve-mode. Perhaps you're confusing the sequence of events. I fail to see how Brady's 2 TD passes were less significant that Vinatieri's 2 FGs. Last year Brady "led" them to 3-8 against teams with winning records, but got to play in the abyssmal AFCE, thus stumbling into the playoffs. I'm sure last year's "down" year (if one can call it that, given that the Pats, at the end, were as good as or better than all but four other teams in the NFL) had nothing to do with the countless injuries to so many of Brady's teammates, right? And don't forget that Brady led the Pats to titles in '03 and '04 despite facing record amounts of injuries to his teammates. Failing to overcome extreme adversity for the third year in a row makes one overrated? Doesn't seem right to me. In such a case, the player should be commended for twice overcoming extreme adversity in the first place. There you go. He benefitted from playing on a team that was firing on all but one cylinder (him) for 18 months, and won in spite of Mr. Mediocrity. That's your conclusion, but your arguments, filled as they are with inaccuracies and faulty logic, don't bear this out. Perhaps you can try looking at the situation objectively, and then you might not appear so foolish by defending an indefensible position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KOKBILLS Posted June 28, 2006 Share Posted June 28, 2006 Namath Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TDRupp Posted June 28, 2006 Share Posted June 28, 2006 Current: Vick All time: Namath 715084[/snapback] Bingo. Vick and Namath and maybe just Vick for both. While Joe Willie definitely was not a great player he really is not touted as one (albiet in the Hall). He is touted for the guarantee. He did help them go do it as well. Hey, the guy won the Super Bowl in a huge upset. Vick is touted as one of the most best players in the NFL. He is unique but he boils down to a "good" QB b/c he can't consistently deliver the ball for completions. Period. I have talked myself into changing to Vick. Current and All-time. Peace! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MDH Posted June 28, 2006 Share Posted June 28, 2006 I agree with the Deon Sanders argument, the guy couldn't tackle to save his life, i would need to think about it more to give you a good answer for all time. I think Steve McNair could be a possibility for present day, and by present day i mean last year. 715761[/snapback] Discounting last year (a year in which McNair played hurt most of the time) I'd go the opposite direction with McNair, I think he's one of the most underrated players of the past 10 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.Biscuit97 Posted June 29, 2006 Share Posted June 29, 2006 current- Donovan Mcnabb Vick is too easy to say, and while he is its not nearly as bad as it used to be. so I nominate mr. 4th quater chokejob Donovan McNabb. all time- Namath 715089[/snapback] Gotta disagree with the McNabb choice. Before TO, he had no weapons. He had James Thrash, Freddie Mitchell, and Todd Pinkston. He did everything possible to led that team to 4 NFC championship games. He's a warrior and orangeman. Current: A little shocker here - Randy Moss. I know he is a matchup nightmare but I'd rather have a guy like Hines Ward. I prefer wrs who block and go over the middle. Moss runs one route and jumps high. Special mention to Keyshawn Johnson. He talks like he is a HOFer but is basically Ed McCafferty. All-time: This is gonna blow your socks off but Joe Montana. Granted he gave me an autograph card and won 4 Super Bowls. But look at his supporting cast: Jerry Rice (greatest WR ever), John Taylor, Roger Craig, Brent Jones, Tom Rathman, and one of the best lines in football. Plus, they had an amazing defense. Plus, anytime your backup comes in and wins a Super Bowl, you lose some points. Honorable mention to Jimbo for the same reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajzepp Posted June 29, 2006 Share Posted June 29, 2006 Joe Montana 715860[/snapback] Dude, what the hell is wrong with you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Coli Posted June 29, 2006 Share Posted June 29, 2006 A ridiculous comparison, surely formed out of either abject stupidity or extreme intellectual dishonesty. QBs, on average throw far more INTs than do RBs fumble. The numbers bear this out. The top 30 passers in the NFL last year averaged 11.8 INTs. The top 30 rushers of 2005 fumbled 2.4 times on average. Thus, 3 fumbles in 11 games would be a significant statistic, since the average rusher fumbles only 2.4 times per full 16 game season. However, 3 INTs in 11 games is far below average (it averages out to 4.4 INTs in a full 16 game season), and therefore is not statistically significant, at least in terms of proving that the thrower of said 3 INTs is deficient as a passer. If anything, it proves how deft the passer is at not turning the ball over. 715783[/snapback] I admire your loyalty to Brady, HD, I really do, however misplaced. But the argument isn't that Mr. Mediocre threw 3 INTs in eleven games. He threw 3 endzone INTs in eleven games. And not in regular season games, playoff games. That is unbelievable. Three endzone INTs in eleven playoff games? That is a staggering statistic. It's amazing, really, that when Pats fans discuss Brady it's the team's fault when they lose, and it's Brady's miraculous play despite all odds when they win. It's almost as if he didn't have Belicheck. Or Charlie Weiss' system. Or a dominant defense. Or Vinatieri's clutch kicks. Or help from the zebras. How does he do it? The answer is, of course, that when you take even a few of those away he falls back to earth. As in 3-8 versus teams with winning records and stumbling into the playoffs because his team plays in the terrible AFCE, or missing the playoffs entirely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Jokeman Posted June 29, 2006 Share Posted June 29, 2006 Namath definately deserves the all time nod. In terms of today, I'd vote for Ben Roethlisberger. As in two seasons in the NFL he's only averaged a little more than 1 TD pass a game and just under 1 INT a game. Yet he has a great record and Super Bowl ring more because of the running game and defense that Pittsburgh put around him than his production. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoondckCL Posted June 29, 2006 Author Share Posted June 29, 2006 Discounting last year (a year in which McNair played hurt most of the time) I'd go the opposite direction with McNair, I think he's one of the most underrated players of the past 10 years. 715839[/snapback] Didn't McNair make it to the Pro Bowl last year? If i'm not mistaken i believe he did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hollywood Donahoe Posted June 29, 2006 Share Posted June 29, 2006 I admire your loyalty to Brady, HD, I really do, however misplaced. It's killing you. Isn't it? Do me a favor and don't further insult my intelligence by acting like I'm a fool for having the gall to defend an NFL player who's done more in his first five years than most, if not all, players in NFL history. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoondckCL Posted June 29, 2006 Author Share Posted June 29, 2006 It's killing you. Isn't it? Do me a favor and don't further insult my intelligence by acting like I'm a fool for having the gall to defend an NFL player who's done more in his first five years than most, if not all, players in NFL history. 715901[/snapback] Sorry but i would have to agree with this rebutal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffal0 Bill5 Posted June 29, 2006 Share Posted June 29, 2006 One of the most over-rated of the past imo was Kordell Stewart. For a while he was on magazine covers and being compared to the likes of Marino, Elway, Young, etc. Slash was a poser. I think commentators have a tendency to over-sing the praises of Zack Thomas, but then again I am a Bills lovin' fin hater. I always hated the hype around Stev McMichael when he was with the Bears. He seemed to be on the bench sucking on the oxygen mask as much as he was on the field. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajzepp Posted June 29, 2006 Share Posted June 29, 2006 It's killing you. Isn't it? Do me a favor and don't further insult my intelligence by acting like I'm a fool for having the gall to defend an NFL player who's done more in his first five years than most, if not all, players in NFL history. 715901[/snapback] I still think it's funny when people make gay jokes about the guy, but I have to say that I've pretty much accepted that he's among the best ever..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hollywood Donahoe Posted June 29, 2006 Share Posted June 29, 2006 I still think it's funny when people make gay jokes about the guy... He really does little to help himself in that regard, what with the goat pictures and the man purse and the turning his teammates onto the joys of hair highlights. ...but I have to say that I've pretty much accepted that he's among the best ever..... I think most have, although there are selected stragglers (AKC, Johnny Coli, etc.). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajzepp Posted June 29, 2006 Share Posted June 29, 2006 He really does little to help himself in that regard, what with the goat pictures and the man purse and the turning his teammates onto the joys of hair highlights. I think most have, although there are selected stragglers (AKC, Johnny Coli, etc.). 715919[/snapback] lol, true dat.....I guess ultimately the joke is on us (i.e. those who partake in the gay jokes), though, cause the guy probably gets more premium trim than just about anyone else walking the planet.....DAMN that Tom Brady..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krazykat Posted June 29, 2006 Share Posted June 29, 2006 The most overrated player in NFL history or/and the most overrated player playing football currently. 715013[/snapback] Bledsoe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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