apuszczalowski Posted June 27, 2006 Posted June 27, 2006 I still don't think Gruden has proven much at all. He did alright with the Raiders, but look at the team he inherited in Tampa. Anyone could've won with that team except Tony Dungy. Dick Jauron probably could've taken them to a Super Bowl and won. Since then, Gruden hasn't done much at all. Bellichek is a DEEFINITE HOF'r. Dungy is another coach that has had good regular season teams, but doesn't seem to be enough of a motivator when it comes to the Post-Season. Good person it seems, but HOF Coach? I doubt it. 714695[/snapback] Thats why I said someone like Gruden, Holmgren and Shanahan may be able to squeak in to the HOF in a weak year for coaches, but they may just end up as a really good coach, but not HOF worthy
Tortured Soul Posted June 27, 2006 Posted June 27, 2006 Ganesh, here's the career numbers on Cowher and Homlgren. Cowher: 141 82 1 | 12 9 Holmgren: 138 86 0 | 11 9 That's regular season record followed by playoff record. Basically identical. Cowher is 1-1 in SBs vs. Holmgren's 1-2. Cowher has three losing seasons to Holmgren's two. I think the reason Holmgren is more impressive to me is that he's done it with two different teams as opposed to Cowher's one. Here's Shanahan's: 122 74 0 | 8 5 He's 2-0 in the big game with 2.5 losing seasons, and only one losing season in Denver. Bottom line, I don't know if any of these three deserve the Hall - I think they'll all make it, though - but if one gets in, they all get in.
R. Rich Posted June 27, 2006 Posted June 27, 2006 Jeff Fisher 714771[/snapback] Not a bad choice. Not only has he proven to be a very good head coach, he has arguably the best staff of coaches in the league w/ him also.
BuffaloWings Posted June 27, 2006 Posted June 27, 2006 I think this is a topic where longevity should have a lot to do with it. Parcells and Cowher have been doing it for a long time - taking teams from nothing to the playoffs and/or Superbowl. Belichick hasn't been doing it quite as long with the Patsies, but his recent track record should leave no doubt. That said, I'd probably put Cowher in the same group with the Mikes. There are enough negatives for me to not put him in there just yet. Shanahan hasn't yet proven he can take a non-Elway team to the big game (if he had won the big one last year, then I'd consider him more seriously), though he's kept Denver competitive for years. Holmgren would be more likely to go in than Cowher and Shanahan, but I just don't quite see him there just yet. But hey...if Marv is in, then Holmgren probably should be, too.
BuffOrange Posted June 27, 2006 Posted June 27, 2006 I still don't think Gruden has proven much at all. He did alright with the Raiders, but look at the team he inherited in Tampa. Anyone could've won with that team except Tony Dungy. Dick Jauron probably could've taken them to a Super Bowl and won. Since then, Gruden hasn't done much at all. 714695[/snapback] I don't think you can give Gruden too much credit for the one Super Bowl he did win. Brad Johnson at QB, Michael Pittman at RB, a very mediocre OL and they were somehow an offensive juggernaut in the postseason. While their defense was very good, it was not '85 Bears or '00 Ravens "all-time great". One of the least talented champions ever IMO. He's still young so I think he can get there if he manages to grind out more playoff teams. Bellicheck & Bellicheck - lock, Cowher probably in. Shannahan is close, but he's another guy who has some years left. I've personally never been a big Holmgren fan. I think just about any coach could've won the title once in Favre's prime, much like Switzer/Dallas in '95. People also tend to forget that they were better than the Denver team they lost to in '97. Both teams were great offensively, but Green Bay had the better defense and really had no business losing that game - clearly outcoached by Shannahan. Also, if you take away last year his tenure in Seattle has been barely average. He won two of the worst divisions in NFL history ('99 AFC West and '05 NFC West) and in both those years lost in the first round to two of the worst playoff teams in NFL history at home ('99 Dolphins and '05 Rams).
ganesh Posted June 27, 2006 Author Posted June 27, 2006 But hey...if Marv is in, then Holmgren probably should be, too. 714874[/snapback] It is not the "NFL Hall of Fame", rather the Pro-Football Hall of Fame.... ML won quite a few Gray cups across the border before moving on to the NFL..... One of the reasons, Moon made it in the 1st ballot last year is due to the consideration given to his CFL/USFL tenure
folz Posted June 28, 2006 Posted June 28, 2006 WTF (part 2)? Unless Green has a few miracle seasons with the Cards there's very little chance the guy makes the hall. Coaches that haven't even coached in a SB (in the SB era) generally aren't in the Hall. EDIT: Of the 13 coaches in the Hall that have coached predominately from 1960-present there are only two that didn't win a championship of some sort (AFL, NFL or SB): George Allen and Marv Levy. Both coached in the SB and had other credentials that ultimately got them in. The fact that there are only 13 coaches from this 46 year period leads me to believe that a coach has to do something special to be elected (unlike say, a QB). Probably only Belichick and Tuna are automatics though Cowher would likely get a nod as well. I’m not sure anyone else mentioned, at least at this point in their careers, would qualify. Shanahan has two SB titles but he’s quite a few lackluster years since Elway retired. 714642[/snapback] Sorry for the long post...but hope you read it. I have to agree with MDH. I read an article recently (sorry, can't remember where...but probably related to the Bills) that was talking about how hard it was for coaches to get into the HOF. And one of the things that the voters discuss is how innovative was the coach, did he change or have an affect on the game and how its played? Look at the list of HOFers who were innovators on top of their great records and titles George Allen: "The Future is Now" theme; innovated trades in the league, bringing in vets by giving up future draft choices. Paul Brown: credited w/ making coaching a science (using classroom style/intelligence tests), innovated passing game and created a defense to stop his innovation when other teams started using it. Weeb Eubank: Jets SB victory in SB III brought fans to the game and solidified NFL/AFL merger. Ray Flaherty: Introduced the screen pass and the two platoon (rotation) system to the game. Sid Gillman: "If you want to ring the cash register you have to pass" brought passing game innovations and organizational skills that were copied league wide. George Halas: 1st coach to hold daily practices, utilize film, have games broadcast on the radio. Earl Lambeau: 1st coach to make the forward pass part of the offense. Tom Landry: Perfected the flex defense, the multiple offense and revived the shotgun spread. Marv Levy: Revived importance of the kicking game; No-huddle attack. Earle Neale: Developed Eagle defense which became today's 4-3 defense. Chuck Noll: Innovated how teams dealt with the draft, built team almost exclusively through the draft and shrewd moves on draft day. Steve Owen: Developed the umbrella defense and A-formation offense. Hank Stram: Devised the two TE offense and stack defense. Bill Walsh: developed the west coast style passing game. All of those guys had great records and won 1 or more NFL championships (except for Marv-but 2 Gray Cups, 6 AFC titles, and 4 SB appearences isn't too shaby). Now how many coaches are there in the Hall who aren't credited with an innovation of some sort and how did they get in without being an innovator: Guy Chamberlin: 4 NFL Championships with 3 different teams in a 5 year span; 2 undefeated seasons as player/coach. Jimmy Conzelman: Was a player/coach/owner; 2 NFL titles w/two different teams. Joe Gibbs: Only coach to win 3 SBs w/3 different QBs. Bud Grant: 11 divisional Championships; went to 4 SBs and won one. Vince Lombardi: NEVER had a losing season. Nuff said. (5 NFL titles and 2 SBs). John Madden: 10 years w/ Raiders never had a losing season, highest winning pct. of any coach with more than 100 games. 1 SB title. Don Shula: Winningest coach in NFL history; 33 years with two teams only 2 losing seasons; 1972 undefeated season. Coached in 6 SBs won 2. So, it seems to me that a coach (on top of needing to have a great record and championships) has to have either impacted the game in some way (innovations), proven himself with more than one team and or QB (in Gibbs' situation), or simply be one of the absolute best of all times. Using this criteria Billy B and Billy P are the only coaches now that I would feel comfortable saying are locks. Have any of the other coaches in the league today brought innovations to the game? Proven themselves in more than one place? Or will be considered one of the absolute best ever (on top of having great records and championships)? Look forward to hearing arguments for other guys under these conditions (Holmgren, Shanahan?)
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