Does longevity make someone a HOFer?

[Fezmid]

A history (before their Super Bowl season), that was as dismal as any team in any American sport.

Yeah, the Bucs were terrible right up until 2002.

 

1997 - 10-6

1998 - 8-8

1999 - 11-5

2000 - 10-6

2001 - 9-7

2002 - 12-4

 

CW

[Alaska Darin]

Yeah, the Bucs were terrible right up until 2002. 

 

1997 - 10-6

1998 - 8-8

1999 - 11-5

2000 - 10-6

2001 - 9-7

2002 - 12-4

 

CW

713648[/snapback]

How about:

 

4 division titles in 30 years.

8 playoff appearances.

 

Worst start of any team in recorded football history, losing 26 straight games.

 

The worst team in the NFL from 1983-1995.

 

1976: 0-14

1977: 2-12

1978: 5-11

1979: 9-7

1980: 5-10-1

1981: 9-7

1982: 5-4

1983: 2-14

1984: 6-10

1985: 2-14

1986: 2-14

1987: 4-11

1988: 5-11

1989: 5-11

1990: 6-10

1991: 6-10

1992: 3-13

1993: 5-11

1994: 6-10

1995: 7-9

1996: 6-10

 

That'd be 17 seasons of 21 with 10 or more losses. Real surprising they didn't win alot of late season games on the road, with the "below 40 degree" thing (oh-for-21 in their history before finally winning one) being another of those "made for television" statistics that doesn't mean much.

 

The period you cite had a possible 5 games that could have been played with the kickoff temp below 40. That means that at least 16 of the games were played when the team was terrible - in the largest part of their history. Saying "the Bucs have lost their last five games when the kickoff temp is below 40" doesn't have nearly the weight of "IN THEIR ABYSMAL HISTORY".

 

Oh, and Rob Johnson still sucks and was no better than a mediocre quarterback when his entire body of work is measured. His good performances fall into the "every squirrel finds a nut" category with his poor performances being of far greater frequency.

[Nanker]

If you're prepared to let Drew Bledsoe enter the Pro Football Hall of Fame in anything other than a dress, be prepared to usher in Kerry Collins two years after The Statue takes up residence there.

 

Drue's Stats

Kerry Collins Stats

They've got nearly identical stats and each has accomplished about as much as the other.

 

Neither one deserves the honor yet in my view. But then again, I don't have a vote that counts.

[Pyrite Gal]

Absolutely not. Bledsoe is not a hall of famer. He was a good QB in his era, but HOF's get in on their own merits- hypothetically, if no QB goes in for 20 years, thats fine.

 

Bledsoe had a fine career, and overacheived in many circumstances. He got a bad rep in Buffalo, but the team stunk while he was here.

713631[/snapback]

 

HOF'ers get in based on a vote of a committee composed of team owners, league muckety mucks, the media and I believe former players.

 

I think everyone agrees this system is not perfect in terms of selecting players purely based on achievements, but as folks value achievements on the field and off for a team differently folks seem to be satisfied with this imperfect process.

 

Like any vote, to some degree this is a popularity contest among very knowledgable voters, and like it or not being perceived as a likable stand-up guy while not guranteeing or being the prime reason for entry does count for a bit in terms of how votes are finally cast.

 

The critical question is now whether glitzy stas compiled by longevity gurantee a player a spot in the HOF (they do not) but do these longevity stats play a role in getting a player considered (yes they do).

 

Bledsoe's cumulative stats (where longevity clearly played a big role though this is a good thing for his case as you hang around when you are healthy and judged productive by your HC), a few dominating years, and has had success above the norm (he led a team to the SB and play an essential support role for Brady on an SB winner) should all easily get him considered seriously for this honor.

 

Once he gets into the voting, then two of the big factors will be:

 

1. Who else is up for a vote. The HOF committee has actually been pretty good IMHO about not having the same slavish devotion to the QB being so critical to achievement as many on this board are. They do skip honoring any QBs some years. Nevertheless, QBs get both inordinate credit and inordinate blame for their teams records and like it or not they will not go 20 years wirhout honoring QBs. If Bledsoe is eligible the same year as Favre he likley gets left out. However, if Favre retires after this season and Bledsoe hangs on til the end of his current contract he may well have little competition for the honor.

 

2. Once it gets down to individual choices by voters, the stats and numbers which got a player there is joined with folks general opinion of a player. As most acknowledge Bledsoe is viewed as a nice guy and his wearing a ring which like it or not he deserves and teaming with Parcells to get to the Show will hold him a good light/ Ironically, the fact he was cast aside by the Pats and came back to win a Pro Bowl reserve nod and then cast aside by the Bills and came back to QB a Boys team that certainly has competed in the softer NFC for a playoffs spot last year and may even get in this year.

 

Sorry to folks who judge this as being a Hall of Performance rather than a Hall of Fame, but DB appears pretty nuch a lock to get in IMHO and maybe even on the his ballot if the retirement datess play out correctly for him and he gets to the playoffs again.

[Buftex]

You remember wrong, having watched Tampa since 1984 when I moved down here, (there were no sports bars or sat TV) I saw every game that year. Rob played a couple games and lost them both.

713320[/snapback]

 

 

You are wrong about that...RJ was 2-0 as a starter that year...but was still awful!

[Dibs]

If you're prepared to let Drew Bledsoe enter the Pro Football Hall of Fame in anything other than a dress, be prepared to usher in Kerry Collins two years after The Statue takes up residence there.

 

Drue's Stats

Kerry Collins Stats

They've got nearly identical stats and each has accomplished about as much as the other.

 

Neither one deserves the honor yet in my view. But then again, I don't have a vote that counts.

713657[/snapback]

I agree.

I tend to think the 'fame' aspect of HOF can warp what I fell should be the criteria of entry.

DB being a #1 overall pick & starting his career strongly is remembered(has more fame) more than KC. Though(like you), I would leave both out, I think DB is more famous & therefore has a better chance of getting in even though the stats & achievements of the two are similar.

[Fla Bills Fan]

You're forgetting the fact that the Bucs had NEVER beaten a team when the temp was less than 40 -- and the Bears, Packers, etc were BAD for a long time.  There was a major brain lock for that team playing in the cold.  That's worth something.

713562[/snapback]

I think winning in the cold was all about the Bucs D, special teams, Jon Grudden, and nothing to do with the Piece Of Sh-t QB.

[Fla Bills Fan]

Yeah, the Bucs were terrible right up until 2002. 

 

1997 - 10-6

1998 - 8-8

1999 - 11-5

2000 - 10-6

2001 - 9-7

2002 - 12-4

 

CW

713648[/snapback]

The Bucs were terrible right up until Hugh Culverhouse Their Piece of Sh-t owner died, and they got great ownership in the Glaziers. They have also had a few decent QB's before the "great" Rob Johnson. Ever hear of Doug Williams or Steve Young?

[Mikie2times]

If you make the hall of fame based on pass yardage then Drew is a first ballot HOF. If you base it off what he actually brought to the teams he's played for he shouldn't have a chance.

 

Drew is and always will be the most consistently inconsistent QB in the NFL. When he was younger he should have had more TD passes for the amount of yards he was throwing for, and his decision making has always been an issue. As time progressed the TD's and yards kept going down, and the fumbles and sacks began to sky rocket.

 

Since 2002 Drew has averaged almost 13 fumbles and 48 sacks per year, and as AD pointed out these trends always come at the worst times. Drew is only 8-38 against teams that finished the regular season with 10 or more wins.

 

No way Vinny should be in either.

[Nanker]

I agree. 

I tend to think the 'fame' aspect of HOF can warp what I fell should be the criteria of entry.

DB being a #1 overall pick & starting his career strongly is remembered(has more fame) more than KC.  Though(like you), I would leave both out, I think DB is more famous & therefore has a better chance of getting in even though the stats & achievements of the two are similar.

713767[/snapback]

 

Some of that "fame" comes from being a #1 pick in the Draft.

But being #1 in a Draft doesn't guarantee anything.

Other first picks since 1980 that aren't going to get into the HOF are:

Billy Sims, George Rogers, Kenneth Sims, Irving Fryar, Bo Jackson, Vinny Testaverde, Aundray Bruce, Jeff George, Russell Maryland, Steve Emtman, Dan Wilkerson, Ki-Jana Carter and Keyshaun Johnson.

 

John Elway, is in that time period and is the only HOF player to make it so far. Although Bruce Smith, Troy Aikman, Orlando Pace, Peyton Manning are pretty much locks to make it when their time comes up.

 

If you're a QB picked at #1 by the infallible Tuna you're pretty much guaranteed a lifetime of media hummers if you just show up to work.

[Buftex]

If you make the hall of fame based on pass yardage then Drew is a first ballot HOF. If you base it off what he actually brought to the teams he's played for he shouldn't have a chance.

 

Drew is and always will be the most consistently inconsistent QB in the NFL. When he was younger he should have had more TD passes for the amount of yards he was throwing for, and his decision making has always been an issue. As time progressed the TD's and yards kept going down, and the fumbles and sacks began to sky rocket.

 

Since 2002 Drew has averaged almost 13 fumbles and 48 sacks per year, and as AD pointed out these trends always come at the worst times. Drew is only 8-38 against teams that finished the regular season with 10 or more wins. 

 

713836[/snapback]

 

 

At least he is consistant!

[ganesh]

So we're talking about a potential Hall of Fame induction for a guy who's had four good years for the Patriots, and half a good year each for the Bills and the Cowboys.  That's five years of play in which he looked like a guy who belongs in a Hall of Fame discussion, compared to eight years of looking like a very ordinary quarterback.

713297[/snapback]

 

May be if he takes his team to the SB this year (which is a real possibility, considering the talent level there), all this talk will be stopped.

[Alaska Darin]

May be if he takes his team to the SB this year (which is a real possibility, considering the talent level there), all this talk will be stopped.

714219[/snapback]

So winning a Super Bowl is what it takes? I'll alert Trent Dilfer, Mark Rypien, Brad Johnson, Jeff Hostetler, and Jim McMahon.

 

If Dallas somehow wins the Super Bowl this season with Drew Bledsoe taking the snaps, then the level of play in the NFL has officially fallen to an all time low.

[Mikie2times]

May be if he takes his team to the SB this year (which is a real possibility, considering the talent level there), all this talk will be stopped.

714219[/snapback]

You don't need a stud QB to win the Super Bowl. But if you don't have that QB you better have one that can manage a football game.

 

Despite the talent on that team the Dallas line is still a question mark, and regardless if they pan out people will get threw no matter how talented you are up front. That is especially the case when you have a QB that will take a sack or turn it over with the consistency Drew has shown the last 4 years (including his first in Dallas). When pressured Drew's game becomes way to erratic to take a team threw 16 games, and the playoffs. No way Dallas wins the Super Bowl, not even in a watered down NFL season.

[ganesh]

So winning a Super Bowl is what it takes?  I'll alert Trent Dilfer, Mark Rypien, Brad Johnson, Jeff Hostetler, and Jim McMahon.

 

If Dallas somehow wins the Super Bowl this season with Drew Bledsoe taking the snaps, then the level of play in the NFL has officially fallen to an all time low.

714335[/snapback]

 

Nope....Winning the SB just puts his over the top with respect to the rest of

his career....something that a Tren Dilfer, or a Brad Johnson never had to

begin with.

[Alaska Darin]

Nope....Winning the SB just puts his over the top with respect to the rest of

his career....something that a Tren Dilfer, or a Brad Johnson never had to

begin with.

714532[/snapback]

Let me just say I don't agree with you. Even if Drew Bledsoe wins a SB before his career ends, he still doesn't belong in the HoF. If he gets in it'll be because he's one of the all time good guys - not because his body of work as a player warrants it.

[Pyrite Gal]

Let me just say I don't agree with you.  Even if Drew Bledsoe wins a SB before his career ends, he still doesn't belong in the HoF.  If he gets in it'll be because he's one of the all time good guys - not because his body of work as a player warrants it.

714544[/snapback]

 

Yep, that will be a big factor in him winning the popular vote among the HOF committee along with top 10 stats amassed due to longevity, a few dominating years early in his career, taking a team to the SB, playing an essential role in a must-win game in an SB wining season, getting thrown aside by NE (for a better QB in Brady) but coming back to merit a Pro Vowl with our Bills, and then getting tossed under the bus by TD but coming back to getting a starting job with Dallas where he QB'ed the team to a winning record.

 

I do not think he even needs an SB win to make the debate on the committee whether he gets in on his first ballot or has to wait. With any vote it likely will depend on the competition and unless Favre retires the same year he does, my guess is he goes in on his first ballot.

[JAMIEBUF12]

nope

[Pyrite Gal]

You don't need a stud QB to win the Super Bowl. But if you don't have that QB you better have one that can manage a football game.

 

Despite the talent on that team the Dallas line is still a question mark, and regardless if they pan out people will get threw no matter how talented you are up front. That is especially the case when you have a QB that will take a sack or turn it over with the consistency Drew has shown the last 4 years (including his first in Dallas).  When pressured Drew's game becomes way to erratic to take a team threw 16 games, and the playoffs. No way Dallas wins the Super Bowl, not even in a watered down NFL season.

714507[/snapback]

 

I aggree thst it seems virtually impossible that Dallas will get anywhere near the SB thios year.

 

However. a comparison of Bledsoe's performance in 2003 under the predictable non-changing Noffense of Kevin Killdrive and the 2004 team under Clements which still fell short of the playoffs, but pulled off an impressive win streak with Bledsoe at the helm is clear.

 

Clements did a lot of things with the Bills offense which were better than Killdrive's scheme (not hard given how bad things got under Gilbride) but even if the team was ultimately not capable of making the playoffs with Bledsoe at the helm (Bledsoe's failings make it impossible to get in if your ST is not going to pick up the slack if your kicker misses chip shots and your PR guy lays it on the carpet and your D gets throttled by a bunch of back-ups), it still is clear that Bledsoe can be used productively if you do several things:

 

1. You gotta run him even though he is not a great runner-

 

Killdrive clearly was not gonna run Bledsoe because he would not be mistaken for John Elway. However, by Clements occaisionally calling plays like the QB draw, rthis combined with the McGahee stiff arm to stop opposing blitzers from selling out to the pass rush and stay at home a few secs to make sure that even Bledsoe would not fall forward for a gain of 5-7 on a QB draw when the blitzers did not stay at home because they were taking outside routes to the pocket.

 

2. Bledsoe is a statue but he has great hands-

 

TC and MM used a lot of trick plays which utilized the fact that Bledsoe could gather in the somewhat inconsistent pitches from WM and hit a streaking Evans or occaisionally Moulds who ran a stop and go after the initial hand-off to WM. The Bills propensity for the trick play stopped DCs from selling out to stop the run or on the pass blitz and did a lot to make WM a more effective rusher and to reduce Bledsoe sacks. Just as Bledsoe saved the Bills and Teagues hide a number of times as he learned how to do the shotgun, Bledsoe shopwed good skills in gatheing in WM pitchbscks and still be able to track and hit the WR.

 

3. Bledsoe has little ability to improvise well but he has the experience to run set trick plays well-

 

An exampl folks may remember was when MM called a TO on 4th and 1 to stop Lindell from trying a 40+ FG. The Bills instead appeared to line-up and run a QB sneak with non-riner Bledsoe. At the last minute instead of fdiving into the line he turned and pitched wide to WM who scampered the 40+ yards into the endzone.

 

Bledsoe did a great job faking the sneak and doing the pitch. Opponents remembered and this made opponents stay at home in the future.

 

I.m not saying at all Bledsoe is a good rusher (he ain't). I am simply saying that an extreme view that he has nothing to offer (and certainly and extreme view he is a good player) are both incorrect.

 

With the right play calling Bledsoe can be utilized to make the Pro Bowl (as he did in 2002 after NE tossed him correctly for Brady), to lead a team to a winning record (as he did with the Bills in 2004 even though they fell short of the playoffs) and even lead a team to a winning record and come down to the last game in a playoff run (as Dallas did last year).

 

Or instead do you want to deny reality to hold to a doctrine that Bledsoe canot do anything.

[Mikie2times]

Or instead do you want to deny reality to hold to a doctrine that Bledsoe canot do anything.

715554[/snapback]

My opinion of Drew Bledsoe isn't that he has nothing to offer, it's that what he does have to offer is negated by turnovers and mistakes. For having such great hands I wonder why he's fumbled more then any other QB over the last four years. Maybe it's because he takes so many sacks. People thought that might be more the Bills line, that was until he posted another 49 sack year in Dallas, a year which he also tied for the NFL lead in fumbles

 

The problem is great performances by a QB will probably get you a win, but 4 turnover games will guarantee you a loss. Drew Bledsoe will guarantee these types of games every year, and the probability of this happening drastically increases against stronger competition. Just the type of competition he would have to face in the playoffs.