Does longevity make someone a HOFer?

[Fla Bills Fan]

You, my friend, must've been drunk during all of Tampa's games and blacked it all out:

2002: Played in 6 games with 2 starts for the Super Bowl champion Buccaneers…Tampa Bay won games in which he started…

 

http://www.giants.com/team/player.asp?player_id=243

 

In addition, Johnson won Tampa's first ever game against a team when the temperature was below 40 degrees.

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/recap/NFL_20021229_TB@CHI

 

Winning that game secured a first round bye and home field for the team.  While the defense played lights out, Johnson did lead them to 5 scores (3 good drives) and no picks.

 

If he didn't get hurt every other play, I think he would've turned out to be a decent QB. 

CW

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I stand corrected. I have the DVD of that season which includes highlights of all the games. I will have to put it on & check out those games again. I will tell you what though, the Bucs won in spite of Johnson not because of him. 5 scores - all field goals! Rob was a Piece of sh--t QB. After I look at the DVD I can elaborate more if you like.

[LancasterSteve]

  He is not an NFL HoFer but he's a first class dude.

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That's how I see it.

[Dibs]

You're right.

Records also matter.

Elway in playoffs as starter: 14-8, Super Bowl wins: 2.

Bledsoe in playoffs as starter: 4-3.  Super Bowl wins: 0.

 

I will give Bledsoe the props for his mop-up duty and role as supportive backup in the Pats' first SB year, but that doesn't make him a champion QB, or a Hall of Fame QB.  OtOH, Elway showed that a team could win it all, twice, with him at the helm.  If Bledsoe wins one, things change, but with things as they are, I don't think his stats, record, or longevity are enough.

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I think you place too much emphasis on winning SBs(mind you, that view seems to be in the majority).

If Elway had gotten career endingly injured 2 years before he retired....SB wins: 0....Elway into HOF.

If Elway had gotten career endingly injured 6 years before he retired....QBR: 73.8....Elway still into HOF

A huge number of 'great' players do not get SB rings.

Comparing Elway(or any 'great' player) to those lesser(possible) HOF contenders is counter productive. The truly 'great' players show it wherever they play & for however long. When watching Elway or B. Sanders or J. Rice etc play on a losing team, it was just as obvious they were 'great' players.

'Great' players get into the HOF regardless of SB success, stats or longevity(to a point).

Lesser players need these other factors to 'help' them along.

[Orton's Arm]

If Elway had gotten career endingly injured 6 years before he retired....QBR: 73.8....Elway still into HOF

I agree with the heart of your post, which is that you know greatness when you see it. Elway had that greatness. He also had a career yards-per-attempt of 7.1; placing him significantly ahead of Bledsoe and Holcomb in this crucial area. If a quarterback looks mediocre in terms of quarterback rating, yards per attempt, and his play on the field--as Bledsoe does--there's no reason to include him in a Hall of Fame discussion.

[C.Biscuit97]

You, my friend, must've been drunk during all of Tampa's games and blacked it all out:

2002: Played in 6 games with 2 starts for the Super Bowl champion Buccaneers…Tampa Bay won games in which he started…

 

http://www.giants.com/team/player.asp?player_id=243

 

In addition, Johnson won Tampa's first ever game against a team when the temperature was below 40 degrees.

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/recap/NFL_20021229_TB@CHI

 

Winning that game secured a first round bye and home field for the team.  While the defense played lights out, Johnson did lead them to 5 scores (3 good drives) and no picks.

 

If he didn't get hurt every other play, I think he would've turned out to be a decent QB. 

CW

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No offense, but this is an insane statement. If RJ is your team's starting QB for any extended length of time, your team is in serious trouble. Using your link you provided, I did some more research. First of all, the Bears were 4-11 coming into the game. Second, their starting QB was the immortal Henry Burris. Burris was lights out in the game going a staggering 7 for 19, 0 tds and 4 picks. RJ simply didn't screw up the game.

 

Once and for all, RJ was terrible. You state that if he didn't get hurt every other play, he could have be decent. But it was his own fault that he got hurt. He is the most sacked QB per dropback in NFL HISTORY. I admire his toughness because he certainly took some shots. But it was his own fault for not getting rid of the ball that cause these problems. Sacks are drive killers. But for some reason everyone (including Ralph Wilson, fans, Jon Gruden, etc.) saw this potential and thought they could win with him. RJ sucks and Doug Flutie was still wanted by the Pats to be a backup QB at 43. Case closed and I will never mention these two names again.

[C.Biscuit97]

As for the original question, it think it depends. For a position like running back, careers tend to be shorter. Jim Brown and Gale Sayers both had fairly sohrt careers but dominate during this time. Then you got guys like Jerome Bettis and Curtis Martin who are certainly very good players. But neither of these guys has a 3 to 4 year run that a guy like Terrell Davis had until injuries knocked him out premature. Despite their numbers disparity, I think all three of these guys are HOFers.

 

Bledsoe is certainly an interesting question because he has had periods of domination (and the guy the Pats depended on) and has had afairly long career. So he is right on the cusp. I think if he puts together 2 or 3 more seasons and leads the Cowboys to the playoffs, he is in. I believe Alaska Darin had a great stat about Drew against 10 win teams. But with guys like Moon and Fouts in, it doesn't seem right to penaltize DB.

 

And the comparison to Vinny Testaverde? Fuggeddabout it! VT threw for 18+ tds 5 times in 20 years. Conversely, he threw 18+ ints 7 times. http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/1007

As for Drew, he threw for 18+ 8 times in 14 years and 18+ ints only twice. http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/1041 DB's body of work absolutely destroys VT's.

 

If I could pose my own spin off question, what about the bright flames like Terrell Davis and Kurt Warner that burned out quickly? They have championships, multiple Super Bowls each, Super Bowl MVPs, and regular season MVPs. They also put together some of the best individual seasons ever for their respective positions. Personally because of the point I made earlier about the short careers of rbs, I think Davis should get in and Warner doesn't make the cut.

[Dibs]

If I could pose my own spin off question, what about the bright flames like Terrell Davis and Kurt Warner that burned out quickly?  They have championships, multiple Super Bowls each, Super Bowl MVPs, and regular season MVPs.  They also put together some of the best individual seasons ever for their respective positions.  Personally because of the point I made earlier about the short careers of rbs, I think Davis should get in and Warner doesn't make the cut.

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Good question. I've looked at the stats & Davis only had 4 good years(3 great ones). IMO he certainly was 'great' but having only 3 great seasons & playing on the Broncos who always seem to have top production at RB might keep him out. I would have him in but whether he'll get in or not is a different question.

Warner still might have 4 years left. Then again he might not. Great correlation between TD & KW. Only 3 great seasons for KW as well. I really don't think I would have him in....way too much talent around him. I tend to think a Bledsoe would have achieved just as much for those 3 seasons at the Rams. IMO Warner has also developed 'the yips' since he has been injured & learned how to lose.

If he puts up a couple more good QBR years I reckon he will get in.

[Fezmid]

If I could pose my own spin off question, what about the bright flames like Terrell Davis and Kurt Warner that burned out quickly?  They have championships, multiple Super Bowls each, Super Bowl MVPs, and regular season MVPs.  They also put together some of the best individual seasons ever for their respective positions.  Personally because of the point I made earlier about the short careers of rbs, I think Davis should get in and Warner doesn't make the cut.

I'd say neither gets in.

 

Look at it this way -- Thurman isn't in, why would TD be allowed in.

[Fezmid]

No offense, but this is an insane statement.  If RJ is your team's starting QB for any extended length of time, your team is in serious trouble.  Using your link you provided, I did some more research.  First of all, the Bears were 4-11 coming into the game. 

You're forgetting the fact that the Bucs had NEVER beaten a team when the temp was less than 40 -- and the Bears, Packers, etc were BAD for a long time. There was a major brain lock for that team playing in the cold. That's worth something.

[Dibs]

I'd say neither gets in.

 

Look at it this way -- Thurman isn't in, why would TD be allowed in.

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Yes but Thurman will get in(I believe next induction class). I thought he deserved to get in 1st year eligible but he is bound to get in second year.

So....If Thurman gets in, would TD get in?

[Alaska Darin]

If he didn't get hurt every other play, I think he would've turned out to be a decent QB. 

CW

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[Alaska Darin]

You're forgetting the fact that the Bucs had NEVER beaten a team when the temp was less than 40 -- and the Bears, Packers, etc were BAD for a long time.  There was a major brain lock for that team playing in the cold.  That's worth something.

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From the article:

 

"Feasted is more like it. Tampa Bay's offense was hardly impressive, with Rob Johnson getting sacked five times -- four times in the first half -- and mustering only 134 yards."

 

"Tampa Bay intercepted Burris four times, setting up four of Gramatica's five field goals."

 

"Just how ferocious were the Bucs? Chicago's first five plays in the fourth quarter were passes, and Tampa Bay picked off three of them. Burris went just 7 of 19 for 78 yards, ending up with a dismal 10.3 quarterback rating."

 

Rob Johnson didn't win anything. He was simply the starting QB who didn't lose the game.

[Kelly the Dog]

Rob Johnson didn't win anything.  He was simply the starting QB who didn't lose the game.

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Which made it one of his best performances ever.

[Fezmid]

Rob Johnson didn't win anything.  He was simply the starting QB who didn't lose the game.

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Which was more than could be said for any other Bucs QB in their entire history.

 

I've noticed that people on this board love to dismiss everything from players on their "bash" list.

[Fezmid]

Yes but Thurman will get in(I believe next induction class).  I thought he deserved to get in 1st year eligible but he is bound to get in second year. 

So....If Thurman gets in, would TD get in?

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I'd still say no, because he didn't play long enough. He had three great seasons, and then the injury killed him (not literally ). That's just not a big enough body of work, IMHO, to be inducted in the HoF.

 

CW

[Kelly the Dog]

Which was more than could be said for any other Bucs QB in their entire history.

 

I've noticed that people on this board love to dismiss everything from players on their "bash" list. 

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Do you seriously want to continue on public record implying that Rob Johnson was a good NFL quarterback? Or that any other starter or back-up in the league would not have won that game or manufactured 134 passing yards on a Super Bowl winning team in which the defense pitched a shutout and had 4 interceptions against a 4-12 team running for the bus?

[Fezmid]

Do you seriously want to continue on public record implying that Rob Johnson was a good NFL quarterback?

Do you seriously want to continue on public record putting words in my mouth?

 

I never said he was good. I said he could've been decent if he stayed healthy -- look at some of the games he played, like against KC.

 

Or that any other starter or back-up in the league would not have won that game or manufactured 134 passing yards on a Super Bowl winning team in which the defense pitched a shutout and had 4 interceptions against a 4-12 team running for the bus?

Again, no other QB in the Bucs entire HISTORY had won a game against a team when it was less than 40 degrees. Was he the main reason they won? No. Did he help them win? Definately.

 

But I realize he's on the TSW "Bash" list so no matter what he does/did, people will find fault. When players like that are on our team, it's "We lost because of player X," and "We won despite player X." So carry on.

 

CW

[Adam]

Absolutely not. Bledsoe is not a hall of famer. He was a good QB in his era, but HOF's get in on their own merits- hypothetically, if no QB goes in for 20 years, thats fine.

 

Bledsoe had a fine career, and overacheived in many circumstances. He got a bad rep in Buffalo, but the team stunk while he was here.

[Kelly the Dog]

Do you seriously want to continue on public record putting words in my mouth?

 

I never said he was good.  I said he could've been decent if he stayed healthy -- look at some of the games he played, like against KC.

Again, no other QB in the Bucs entire HISTORY had won a game against a team when it was less than 40 degrees.  Was he the main reason they won?  No.  Did he help them win?  Definately.

 

But I realize he's on the TSW "Bash" list so no matter what he does/did, people will find fault.  When players like that are on our team, it's "We lost because of player X," and "We won despite player X."  So carry on. 

 

CW

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When you say something like no other QB in team history did something RJ did, I would say that is implying he was good. I didn't put words in your mouth. I didn't say you said he was good, you implied he was good. Plus, he was consistently injured not because he was unlucky, but because of several serious flaws in his game. Jim McMahon was injured a lot, but in unlucky or fluke plays most often. RJ was injured a lot because he couldn't sense the rush, refused to get rid of the ball, was slow to react to pressure. That is why he is not even a decent QB.

[Alaska Darin]

Which was more than could be said for any other Bucs QB in their entire history.

A history (before their Super Bowl season), that was as dismal as any team in any American sport.

 

I've noticed that people on this board love to dismiss everything from players on their "bash" list. 

713591[/snapback]

As opposed to your perpetual blinders? Once again defending the indefensible.