Peter King giving Old Whitey a rimjahb

[Ramius]

Oops!

 

Think the Bills will be in the hunt for Jones?

711332[/snapback]

 

if the light <finally> goes off at OBD and they realize that a team needs a good line, and that they must be willing to shell out some bucks for it, then yes. but thats a big IF.

[Bill from NYC]

Oops!

 

Think the Bills will be in the hunt for Jones?

711332[/snapback]

 

It depends. If we finish so poorly that we have a top 5 pick (sadly, a very distinct possibility), then perhaps there will be a promising LT available (not a fat slob RT).

That said, I would not be surprised if Marv loses sight of the 06 draft fiasco and selects a corner.

 

Personally, I would be happy for either Steinbach or Jones. Clumpy told me in a PM that the Bills will have a HUGE amount of cap space in 07. I believe him. Players such as Moulds and Williams had very big 07 figures that no longer exist, and the cap figure will rise.

 

Anyway.... to answer your question, I would like to see the Bills offer 50 million or more to Steinbach. I like Jones a ton, but he will never be as dominating as my favorite LT of all time, Orlando Pace.

In a perfect BfNYC world, we will find a dominant LT via the draft, and lock him up for 6 or 7 years. We would sign Steinbach as a ufa, and move our next best OG to the right. The only thing that would change this would be if Peters somehow moves to the left (and I think that he can do it).

 

This s.i.c., is a blueprint for the Bills to be victorious. Not 150 lb. wrs, nor a boat load of safeties.

[Orton's Arm]

A lot of you have made very good points here, but can we stop saying he left the team "in worse shape" than when he came in? Go through position by position and you might find 2 or three players total that were better at their position than the current player there. Again, lot's of good points, but this one is simply not true.

Interesting remark. In the five years TD was here, he compiled a winning percentage of 39%. Excluding the rebuilding season of 2001, TD's winning percentage was 44%. In the five years prior to TD's arrival, the Bills' winning percentage was 56%.

 

But, you say, while the Bills may have won while Butler was here, he left behind a roster that was too old, with too little young talent. But there was some young talent on that 2000 roster: Antowain Winfield, Antowain Smith, Eric Moulds, Pat Williams, Peerless Price, and probably a few other guys I'm forgetting. What young but proven talent did TD leave for Marv? Nate Clements, Terrence McGee, Willis McGahee, Lee Evans, Aaron Schobel, and Angelo Crowell. Not a huge difference.

 

The Johnson/Flutie quarterback situation of the 2000 Bills has an eerie similarity to the Losman/Holcomb controversy TD provided Levy with. Both the Bills of 2000 and the Bills of 2005 featured relatively old, inept offensive lines. In fact, the offenses of those two teams were relatively identical: lousy lines, quarterback controversies between a young first round guy and a savvy veteran, reasonable to good talent at WR and RB, older and rather ineffective TEs.

 

On defense, Butler gave TD one good lineman with a future: Pat Williams. TD gave Levy one good defensive lineman young enough to have a future: Aaron Schobel. The Sam Cowart/Takeo Spikes injury situations are similar to each other. TD found Angleo Crowell, a promising linebacker whose future may be like John Holocek's.

 

In the secondary, Butler gave Donahone the young, talented Antoine Winfield, Travares Tillman, as well as some older players. TD gave Marv Nate Clements, Terrence McGee, and some older guys. Not a huge difference there either. Both the Bills of 2000 and the Bills of 2005 had good punters and kickers. Overall, the roster TD inherited from Butler is very, very similar to the roster TD has given Marv.

[AJ1]

Interesting remark.  In the five years TD was here, he compiled a winning percentage of 39%.  Excluding the rebuilding season of 2001, TD's winning percentage was 44%.  In the five years prior to TD's arrival, the Bills' winning percentage was 56%.

 

But, you say, while the Bills may have won while Butler was here, he left behind a roster that was too old, with too little young talent.  But there was some young talent on that 2000 roster: Antowain Winfield, Antowain Smith, Eric Moulds, Pat Williams, Peerless Price, and probably a few other guys I'm forgetting.  What young but proven talent did TD leave for Marv?  Nate Clements, Terrence McGee, Willis McGahee, Lee Evans, Aaron Schobel, and Angelo Crowell.  Not a huge difference. 

 

The Johnson/Flutie quarterback situation of the 2000 Bills has an eerie similarity to the Losman/Holcomb controversy TD provided Levy with.  Both the Bills of 2000 and the Bills of 2005 featured relatively old, inept offensive lines.  In fact, the offenses of those two teams were relatively identical: lousy lines, quarterback controversies between a young first round guy and a savvy veteran, reasonable to good talent at WR and RB, older and rather ineffective TEs. 

 

On defense, Butler gave TD one good lineman with a future: Pat Williams.  TD gave Levy one good defensive lineman young enough to have a future: Aaron Schobel.  The Sam Cowart/Takeo Spikes injury situations are similar to each other.  TD found Angleo Crowell, a promising linebacker whose future may be like John Holocek's.

 

In the secondary, Butler gave Donahone the young, talented Antoine Winfield, Travares Tillman, as well as some older players.  TD gave Marv Nate Clements, Terrence McGee, and some older guys.  Not a huge difference there either.  Both the Bills of 2000 and the Bills of 2005 had good punters and kickers.  Overall, the roster TD inherited from Butler is very, very similar to the roster TD has given Marv.

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So what's the big difference? Coaching? TD couldn't find one to save himself. An executive who can't hire decent subordinates is doomed to failure, no matter the skills he might otherwise possess.

[Dennis in NC]

Hey Peter,  what's Tom record in the playoffs with the Bills?  (sfx: crickets chirping)  He acts like Clements, Schobel, Henry, and Jennings are all HOF'ers.   

 

PTR

710790[/snapback]

But then he seemed to like Tampa's trade-up for OL Kenyatta Walker, too!

[Crap Throwing Monkey]

The Johnson/Flutie quarterback situation of the 2000 Bills has an eerie similarity to the Losman/Holcomb controversy TD provided Levy with.

711443[/snapback]

 

 

Only in your warped little mind.

[4BillsintheBurgh]

So what's the big difference? Coaching?  TD couldn't find one to save himself.  An executive who can't hire decent subordinates is doomed to failure, no matter the skills he might otherwise possess.

711452[/snapback]

How about cap space? Money is really the one factor that isn't visible from the outside. Like when people say TD didn't want to sign players that were good. Maybe he was told he couldn't. maybe RW was tired of shelling out Polian/Bulter money. I don't think TD did a great job, as his record suggests, but I think the team is in a lot better shape than it was in 2001. The defense has some hope to be solid and I have to think that the offense will be better also. I hope that Jaron and Fairchild will work well together and Fairchild quickly realizes he ain't in no dome no mo'/

[Orton's Arm]

Only in your warped little mind.

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It's hard to believe that you of all people--or should I say of all monkeys--are accusing me of having a warped mind!

[Bob in STL]

A lot of you have made very good points here, but can we stop saying he left the team "in worse shape" than when he came in? Go through position by position and you might find 2 or three players total that were better at their position than the current player there. Again, lot's of good points, but this one is simply not true.

711230[/snapback]

 

 

I honestly believe that TD left the team in worst shape and not only from a from a talent perspective. TD purged veterans to get out of cap hell so I give him a pass on the first year. Still, his autocratic management style, his choice of coaches, the termoil and in-fighting all contribute to a loss of credibility for the organization. It will take a few years to re-establish the credibility that Polian-Levy-Butler established and maintained.

 

I think the record speaks for itself ... no playoff games and one winning (9-7) season in 5 years.

[Orton's Arm]

So what's the big difference? Coaching?  TD couldn't find one to save himself.  An executive who can't hire decent subordinates is doomed to failure, no matter the skills he might otherwise possess.

Wade Phillips wasn't a great coach either, except for defense. Butler did a better job of finding players earlier in his career than he did towards the end. For most of Butler's career, the Bills had a higher talent level than the bulk of TD's career. However, the talent level on the Bills died down towards the end of the Butler era.

 

A key difference between the two GMs is that Butler did a much better job than TD of keeping his players in Buffalo. So the success stories Butler had early on helped him achieve wins throughout his tenure. Meanwhile, TD released or failed to re-sign players such as Antowain Smith, Antowain Winfield, Jonas Jennings, and others while these players generally had years of good football in front of them. Because TD got rid of talent at a faster pace than Butler, he had to acquire talent at a faster pace to achieve the same results Butler did. Obviously, TD failed to do this.

 

The continuity Butler helped build allowed players to get the most out of their athletic ability. Take the left side of the Bills' line: for years it was manned by Fina and Brown. Any offensive lineman will tell you continuity is critical to success. TD chose to build his lines largely through older free agents such as Villarrial and Teague. Because older free agents seldom last more than a few years, it's a lot tougher to build any kind of continuity this way. This strategy's failure was evident on the field.

 

I'll grant that Butler made a mess of the salary cap; and was too willing to vastly overpay aging veterans to achieve continuity. But as bad as Butler's salary cap mistakes were, TD's errors in talent evaluation and talent retention were far worse.

[Bob in STL]

Wade Phillips wasn't a great coach either, except for defense.  Butler did a better job of finding players earlier in his career than he did towards the end.  For most of Butler's career, the Bills had a higher talent level than the bulk of TD's career.  However, the talent level on the Bills died down towards the end of the Butler era.

 

A key difference between the two GMs is that Butler did a much better job than TD of keeping his players in Buffalo.  So the success stories Butler had early on helped him achieve wins throughout his tenure.  Meanwhile, TD released or failed to re-sign players such as Antowain Smith, Antowain Winfield, Jonas Jennings, and others while these players generally had years of good football in front of them.  Because TD got rid of talent at a faster pace than Butler, he had to acquire talent at a faster pace to achieve the same results Butler did.  Obviously, TD failed to do this.

 

The continuity Butler helped build allowed players to get the most out of their athletic ability.  Take the left side of the Bills' line: for years it was manned by Fina and Brown.  Any offensive lineman will tell you continuity is critical to success.  TD chose to build his lines largely through older free agents such as Villarrial and Teague.  Because older free agents seldom last more than a few years, it's a lot tougher to build any kind of continuity this way.  This strategy's failure was evident on the field. 

 

I'll grant that Butler made a mess of the salary cap; and was too willing to vastly overpay aging veterans to achieve continuity.  But as bad as Butler's salary cap mistakes were, TD's errors in talent evaluation and talent retention were far worse.

711502[/snapback]

 

 

Agreed. Many of Butlers players that were purge by TD for salary cap reasons went to other teams and were productive. Can we say that abpout TDs players?

[Bill from NYC]

Agreed.  Many of Butlers players that were purge by TD for salary cap reasons went to other teams and were productive. 

711568[/snapback]

 

Could you please refresh my memory? I am not jumping on Mr. B, who I found to be a rather interesting GM, but as I recall, his most of his castoffs produced little.

 

Names like Holocek, Henry Jones and Sam Rogers come to mind. These guys were all but through (for different reasons), and had multi-million dollar contracts.

The best examples however were Fina and Ostroski. These were simply bad players, and not so healthy to boot. As I recall, it cost TD close to 11 million in cap space to release these stiffs, after which Fina sat on the bench for the cardinals for a few games, and Ostroski was out of football completely.

 

Mr. B was prone to overpay marginal players who fit his system. A case could be made for this being good or bad, but it destroyed our salary cap.

 

One more thing about GMs. Many posters say that they "dont blame" GMs for certain poor decisions, such as TD drafting Mike Williams. As a rule, I don't but into this. It is their job to draft the best players, and their fault when they don't imo.

I do make one exception....I don't blame Mr. B for grabbing Rob Johnson. I have been watching football for the better part of 4 decades, and I still insist that RJ was an extremely gifted qb. His set of skills was unreal, which included a deep ball, a nice "touch" on shorter throws, long square outs, and he was a very good runner.

I am now fully aware that he sucked; even Gruden couldn't help him. Perhaps this is what TD saw in JP.

 

Also, Mr. B was hurt by costly injuries (Covington, Kerner, Cowart, etc). I suppose all teams are hurt in this manner, but I believe that although the Bills had a soft OL during his tenure, Mr. Butler's Bills team could have advanced further with a little luck.

[ganesh]

In the secondary, Butler gave Donahone the young, talented Antoine Winfield, Travares Tillman, as well as some older players.  TD gave Marv Nate Clements, Terrence McGee, and some older guys.  Not a huge difference there either.  Both the Bills of 2000 and the Bills of 2005 had good punters and kickers.  Overall, the roster TD inherited from Butler is very, very similar to the roster TD has given Marv.

711443[/snapback]

 

May be....But the key difference is the roster that TD inherited was in a big cap mess forcing TD to chose between Moulds/Wiley. not being able to resign Christie to a decent contract, having to get rid of Holocek, Sam Cowart etc.....Marv has

inherited a team in disarray, but at least is cap friendly. It gives Marv the

freedom to go and pick and choose his FAs....Look at the Larry Triplett signing...

I don't think TD had the cap space to make such a signing...

[ganesh]

The continuity Butler helped build allowed players to get the most out of their athletic ability.  Take the left side of the Bills' line: for years it was manned by Fina and Brown.  Any offensive lineman will tell you continuity is critical to success.  TD chose to build his lines largely through older free agents such as Villarrial and Teague.  Because older free agents seldom last more than a few years, it's a lot tougher to build any kind of continuity this way.  This strategy's failure was evident on the field. 

 

711502[/snapback]

 

Teague was in his Prime when he signed with the Bills, not a old veteran FA...

Teague came to the Bills because he was promised a shot at the LT job. However,

with the emergence of Jennings at the Tackle position, they chose to move Teague

to Center against his wishes....

[Sisyphean Bills]

What's truly sad is 2001 was a draft run with some front office carry over from the Butler regime. After that draft, Teflon brought in his own circus clowns and the drafts were, as many have pointed out, noticably shorter on results.

[dave mcbride]

Could you please refresh my memory? I am not jumping on Mr. B, who I found to be a rather interesting GM, but as I recall, his most of his castoffs produced little.

 

Names like Holocek, Henry Jones and Sam Rogers come to mind. These guys were all but through (for different reasons), and had multi-million dollar contracts.

The best examples however were Fina and Ostroski. These were simply bad players, and not so healthy to boot. As I recall, it cost TD close to 11 million in cap space to release these stiffs, after which Fina sat on the bench for the cardinals for a few games, and Ostroski was out of football completely.

 

Mr. B was prone to overpay marginal players who fit his system. A case could be made for this being good or bad, but it destroyed our salary cap.

 

One more thing about GMs. Many posters say that they "dont blame" GMs for certain poor decisions, such as TD drafting Mike Williams. As a rule, I don't but into this. It is their job to draft the best players, and their fault when they don't imo.

I do make one exception....I don't blame Mr. B for grabbing Rob Johnson. I have been watching football for the better part of 4 decades, and I still insist that RJ was an extremely gifted qb. His set of skills was unreal, which included a deep ball, a nice "touch" on shorter throws, long square outs, and he was a very good runner.

I am now fully aware that he sucked; even Gruden couldn't help him. Perhaps this is what TD saw in JP.

 

Also, Mr. B was hurt by costly injuries (Covington, Kerner, Cowart, etc). I suppose all teams are hurt in this manner, but I believe that although the Bills had a soft OL during his tenure, Mr. Butler's Bills team could have advanced further with a little luck.

711578[/snapback]

good post, but you're forgetting some players who left and did well elsewhere. ted washington wanted to come back to the bills in 01, but was shown the door. henry jones, even though he was not as good as he once was, was certainly better than the nonentities who started at safety for the bills in 01 and 02. as you may recall, he was run over by corey dillon in the last preseason game of 01, and greggo, who at the time liked his safeties to be great tacklers (with less of an emphasis on coverage, jones' forte), cut him the next day. call it blaine bishop fever.

 

re fina, he had a couple of good seasons (93 and 95 -- and to a lesser extent 98) - he wasn't all bad.

 

also, donohoe didn't cast off ostroski - he kept him. ostroski ended up retiring because of the injury he sustained in the 01 preseason. prior to that, he was a healthy and serviceable player.

[Sisyphean Bills]

also, donohoe didn't cast off ostroski - he kept him. ostroski ended up retiring because of the injury he sustained in the 01 preseason. prior to that, he was a healthy and serviceable player.

711618[/snapback]

 

Not to mention a better player than some of the garbage that has followed him.

[Bill from NYC]

good post, but you're forgetting some players who left and did well elsewhere. ted washington wanted to come back to the bills in 01, but was shown the door. henry jones, even though he was not as good as he once was, was certainly better than the nonentities who started at safety for the bills in 01 and 02. as you may recall, he was run over by corey dillon in the last preseason game of 01, and greggo, who at the time liked his safeties to be great tacklers (with less of an emphasis on coverage, jones' forte), cut him the next day. call it blaine bishop fever. 

 

re fina, he had a couple of good seasons (93 and 95 -- and to a lesser extent 98) - he wasn't all bad.

 

also, donohoe didn't cast off ostroski - he kept him. ostroski ended up retiring because of the injury he sustained in the 01 preseason. prior to that, he was a healthy and serviceable player.

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In his last few seasons, Fina was a turnstile, and was making more than 5 mil per season.

As for Jerry O, we can agree to disagree. He had a 5 year contract for more than 15 mil. over 5 years (big cash back then), and insisted on playing OC, where he was WAY worse than Teague. Do you remember the 1st play when the Bills opened their season against Tennessee? A DT knoked him flat on his back, trampled him and sacked the qb for a 9 yd. loss.

 

He WAS strong, but could barely get out of his stance. What bothered me the most about him and the other bums on that line was that they (unlike Parker, Hull, etc.) wouldn't even retaliate against defenders after late hits. Sometimes, they would walk by RJ and not even help him up as he lay there bleeding.

[mary owen]

i can't believe i'm defending king, but he's actually right here. the bills had a good draft in 01 - there really isn't an argument to be made against that. that's what he's judging, not whether the bills had a good draft in 02 or 03 or 04 or 05.  he's also not assessing donohoe's choice for a head coach, which also falls outside the parameters of the piece. and to be fair to king, he's never been a slavish booster of donohoe (in fact, he's been critical on occasion). don't confuse him with espn's mortonson and pasquarelli, which is where the bulk of the public donohoe worship was on display.

711257[/snapback]

 

 

the reason why I posted this in the first place is that I can't believe he chastises Bills fans for wishing TD gone. Good Draft in 01? Sure. Should we be ashamed for kicking him out the door because that draft was good? No. We were well within our rights for saying good riddance to him.

[Orton's Arm]

Could you please refresh my memory? I am not jumping on Mr. B, who I found to be a rather interesting GM, but as I recall, his most of his castoffs produced little.

 

Since the beginning of the 2001 season, Travis Henry has rushed for 4184 yards. In that same timespan, Antowain Smith rushed for 3952 yards. TD used a 2nd round pick in a failed attempt to upgrade the RB position, when he should have been addressing the offensive line.

 

Then there's Antowain Winfield, who's gone on to have a very good post-Buffalo career. You see first round picks being used on the secondary all the time; and too often you see those guys leaving after four or five years. TD chose to let Winfield leave after five years. Back in 2001, TD had protected himself from the future loss of Winfield by taking Clements in the first. Later TD chose to let Clements' contract expire . . . but I'm getting off the subject.