Albany,n.y. Posted June 17, 2006 Posted June 17, 2006 While I'm not so confident about this season, I'm prety optimistic about future seasons-and it doesn't take much for one year's also ran to be the next year's champion. So... say we win the Super Bowl in a year or 2. Most of the key players will be TD acquisitions: Losman, McGahee, Evans, Peters, McGee, Spikes, Crowell, Schobel and maybe Clements. TD's biggest problem is he was a disaster picking head coaches, which is what really doomed the team in his era. I really believe good coaching would have brought out much better results with the guys TD put in uniform. We would never have gone far with TD, because we'd always be poorly coached, but I think if these guys form the basis of a championship team, you have to give some of the credit to TD.
Coach Tuesday Posted June 17, 2006 Posted June 17, 2006 <<crickets chirping, a wolf howls in the distant moonlight>>
Sisyphean Bills Posted June 17, 2006 Posted June 17, 2006 While I'm not so confident about this season, I'm prety optimistic about future seasons-and it doesn't take much for one year's also ran to be the next year's champion. So... say we win the Super Bowl in a year or 2. Most of the key players will be TD acquisitions: Losman, McGahee, Evans, Peters, McGee, Spikes, Crowell, Schobel and maybe Clements. 709951[/snapback] Well, you are supposing an awful lot. Sure, TD deserves some credit but that is if and only if the bulk of the team left when the Bills win the Super Bowl are players he brought to Buffalo. This year, the new regime blew up the defensive side of the ball. Next year it wouldn't surprise me at all to see some big changes with the skills positions on the offensive side of the ball. (They've already sent 4 of 6 of the starting Donahoe offensive lineman packing, if you count the TE, and we haven't even made it to training camp.) By the time the Bills win the Super Bowl, Brian Moorman may be about the only Donahoe player left.
Typical TBD Guy Posted June 17, 2006 Posted June 17, 2006 By the time the Bills win the Super Bowl, Brian Moorman may be about the only Donahoe player left. 709966[/snapback] There are only 4-5 TD players I'm confident will still be on the team in 2 seasons: Moorman, Evans, Schobel, McGee, and hopefully Spikes (praying for a complete recovery). If the Bills were to win a Super Bowl in the next few years, TD will be thanked as much as Polian's GM predecessors were thanked for the 90's Super Bowl run - i.e., hardly at all.
JimBob2232 Posted June 17, 2006 Posted June 17, 2006 Well, lets see...TDs biggest problem while he was here: O-Line Since he has left, so have Bennie, Teague and Fat Mike. So I would have to say IF we win, it will be because of an improved O-Line...which TD did not have anything to do with...so No.
PromoTheRobot Posted June 17, 2006 Posted June 17, 2006 The answer is simple. If we win because of players TD drafted, then he gets credit. If we win because of players installed by Levy & Jauron, then no, he gets no credit. PTR
IDBillzFan Posted June 17, 2006 Posted June 17, 2006 Most of the key players will be TD acquisitions: Losman, McGahee, Evans, Peters, McGee, Spikes, Crowell, Schobel and maybe Clements. 709951[/snapback] Too bad he didn't put together half that effort in establishing a good OL. Lousy coaches + no OL = TD deserves no kudos for anything but five years of crap.
UConn James Posted June 17, 2006 Posted June 17, 2006 If the Bills win a SB, it will be 99 percent attributable to the players, multiple levels of coaches and the current GM. They are the ones who coordinate everything done that year. I'll give TD the 1 percent just b/c he provided a pretty good example of how not to run the organization. As an analogy (which are dangerous on this board, don't you know): Joe Blow is building a stone wall, is 1/3 completed and it's about ready to keel over b/c he uses the wrong techniques of fitting stone. He gets fired by the homeowner. If I take that wall down but reuse the stones in different combinations and create a masterpiece that's entered in Better Homes and Gardens, does Joe Blow deserve any credit?
Kelly the Dog Posted June 17, 2006 Posted June 17, 2006 If the Bills win a SB, it will be 99 percent attributable to the players, multiple levels of coaches and the current GM. They are the ones who coordinate everything done that year. I'll give TD the 1 percent just b/c he provided a pretty good example of how not to run the organization. As an analogy (which are dangerous on this board, don't you know): Joe Blow is building a stone wall, is 1/3 completed and it's about ready to keel over b/c he uses the wrong techniques of fitting stone. He gets fired by the homeowner. If I take that wall down but reuse the stones in different combinations and create a masterpiece that's entered in Better Homes and Gardens, does Joe Blow deserve any credit? 710025[/snapback] It's my opinion that teams that win Super Bowls have everything working on all cylinders, and need that to happen to have everything come together to win the thing. And that the organization, the coaching, and the players are all equally important. The Steelers and the Patriots the last few years were prime examples of that. The organization got and signed the right players and combination of players on both sides of the ball, the coaches made the right calls and did excellent jobs, and the players performed to the best of their ability doing the jobs they were coached to do. It would be hard for me to give ANY of these three vital elements any more or less than 33.33333% of the credit. If in three years, the Bills win the SB with TD players like Spikes and Willis and Losman and Evans and Terrence McGee and Moorman and Nate and Jason Peters or others playing vital roles, he should get a portion of a half of that one-third credit.
eball Posted June 17, 2006 Posted June 17, 2006 Simple answer to your question -- no. If the skill players TD drafted wind up being successful, that's great, but their success will be the result of his predecessors addressing the key part of the team -- the OL -- and by returning a sense of pride and mental toughness to the team not seen since the 90s. TD should also be vilified for bringing those pathetic uniforms into the league.
Nanker Posted June 17, 2006 Posted June 17, 2006 Here's an easier question to answer. If TD's Bills had won a SB in the first three years that he was here, would he have given Butler any of the credit. Or rather, would we have given Butler any credit? Doubtful because Butler left us in "Cap Jail." Well TD left us in Schitzville Talent Jail. So I'll give him credit for that. That and leaving town.
Dibs Posted June 17, 2006 Posted June 17, 2006 Based on your premise of "...in 2 years with the players you mentioned", my first reaction was yes he should be given some credit. I am a big believer in 'credit where credit is due'. However upon reading the other posts I feel I would have been a bit hasty with that opinion. Logically, at any given time, there will be talented players(& stars) on virtually every team. It is the ability to turn the 'average' team into 'well above average' that is the difficult part. TD did good & bad things & I fully agree with your coaches point but I feel the players he left us with are pretty much on the 'average' bracket in the league. Pretty much any other GM would have left Marv with a similar amount of usable talent on the roster. I'm hoping that Marv's choice of coach is far, far, far better than TDs & we play as a cohesive team with confidence & passion again.
Orton's Arm Posted June 18, 2006 Posted June 18, 2006 After five years of TD, the Bills were a 5-11 team. Those five wins were achieved largely through the efforts of aging veterans such as London Fletcher and Eric Moulds; players with little good football left. But there are young TD players who've shown flashes or potential. Peters had some good games last year, Everett, Parrish, and Losman are very athletically gifted, etc. It would be nice if every guy who's shown flashes, or who has abundant athletic potential, will work out well. Some will work out well, others will be decent role players, and still others will be busts. The Bills ranked near the bottom of the league in both offense and defense. It's one thing to be ranked near the bottom if you've just cut all your old guys, and are going with younger players. Some feel that exposing weaknesses in your own pool of young talent is a good first step toward correcting them. But the Bills used older players such as Lawyer Milloy to keep the Coy Wires of the team on the bench. But suppose many of the younger players TD found go on to have good careers for the Bills. Should he get the credit for that? Of course. But the real question is whether he assembled more young talent over a five year period than an average GM would have. I'd have to hear an awful lot of "Justin Geisinger makes Pro Bowl" kind of stories before I start thinking of TD's pool of young talent as anything close to average. Of the TD draft picks on the roster, how many have made the Pro Bowl? McGee made it as a return man, and Clements made it once as a defender. But Clements regressed the next year, and he's got one foot out the door anyway. With the dubious exception of Clements, Marv was handed a roster with no young Pro Bowlers on offense or defense. Given that fact, it's a little early to be awarding TD partial credit for a future Super Bowl ring.
Orton's Arm Posted June 18, 2006 Posted June 18, 2006 So... say we win the Super Bowl in a year or 2. Most of the key players will be TD acquisitions: Losman, McGahee, Evans, Peters, McGee, Spikes, Crowell, Schobel and maybe Clements. One thing I should have added earlier: with the exception of the guys you mentioned, how many of TD's players have shown they deserve to be starters? I'm not asking for super stars; just guys who belong in an NFL starting lineup. Not that everyone on your list is a proven commodity. Will Spikes come back from his injury? Can Evans be the go-to guy? Can Losman be a quarterback in the NFL? Is Peters more than just a flash in the pan? Will McGahee be the running back TD hoped for when he drafted him? Some of those guys will turn out well; others won't.
Dibs Posted June 18, 2006 Posted June 18, 2006 Most of the key players will be TD acquisitions: Losman, McGahee, Evans, Peters, McGee, Spikes, Crowell, Schobel and maybe Clements. One thing I should have added earlier: with the exception of the guys you mentioned, how many of TD's players have shown they deserve to be starters? I'm not asking for super stars; just guys who belong in an NFL starting lineup. 710087[/snapback] Fletcher & Villarrial, Posey, Moorman, Lindell with Gandy & Vincent as argueables. That's 14(16) players. As I said in my earlier post, I think that's about average for an NFL team. Most teams(average) are continually looking to upgrade in lots of areas. I agree with Albany,n.y. in that TD was a disaster picking head coaches. The talent should have performed much better last year.
Albany,n.y. Posted June 18, 2006 Author Posted June 18, 2006 One thing I should have added earlier: with the exception of the guys you mentioned, how many of TD's players have shown they deserve to be starters? I'm not asking for super stars; just guys who belong in an NFL starting lineup. Not that everyone on your list is a proven commodity. Will Spikes come back from his injury? Can Evans be the go-to guy? Can Losman be a quarterback in the NFL? Is Peters more than just a flash in the pan? Will McGahee be the running back TD hoped for when he drafted him? Some of those guys will turn out well; others won't. 710087[/snapback] In order for us to win the super Bowl within 3 years, they all have to turn out well, otherwise we're not winning it and the whole point is moot. If only half work out, TD was a total waste of 5 years & good money.
Adam Posted June 18, 2006 Posted June 18, 2006 While I'm not so confident about this season, I'm prety optimistic about future seasons-and it doesn't take much for one year's also ran to be the next year's champion. So... say we win the Super Bowl in a year or 2. Most of the key players will be TD acquisitions: Losman, McGahee, Evans, Peters, McGee, Spikes, Crowell, Schobel and maybe Clements. TD's biggest problem is he was a disaster picking head coaches, which is what really doomed the team in his era. I really believe good coaching would have brought out much better results with the guys TD put in uniform. We would never have gone far with TD, because we'd always be poorly coached, but I think if these guys form the basis of a championship team, you have to give some of the credit to TD. 709951[/snapback] Of course- TD may have made some mistakes, but he was doing his best to try to get us a winning team.......I do appreciate him for that. His apprroach is seen as businesslike and professional when he wins, and stuffy and uptight when he doesn't.
Nanker Posted June 18, 2006 Posted June 18, 2006 Most of the key players will be TD acquisitions: Losman, McGahee, Evans, Peters, McGee, Spikes, Crowell, Schobel and maybe Clements. Fletcher & Villarrial, Posey, Moorman, Lindell with Gandy & Vincent as argueables. That's 14(16) players. As I said in my earlier post, I think that's about average for an NFL team. Most teams(average) are continually looking to upgrade in lots of areas. I agree with Albany,n.y. in that TD was a disaster picking head coaches. The talent should have performed much better last year. 710091[/snapback] I can see where seven of those very possibly won't be on The Bills in 3 years.
Dibs Posted June 18, 2006 Posted June 18, 2006 I can see where seven of those very possibly won't be on The Bills in 3 years. 710208[/snapback] Ah yes, but I was responding to the question " how many of TD's players have shown they deserve to be starters?" I agree with your assessment though....except for Schobel.
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