Phil Hansen Forever Posted June 19, 2006 Posted June 19, 2006 We should have dumped him last year. The only reason he was slightly better, is we didn't get any decent field position for him to miss more. We need a Steve Christie or a Scotty Norwood, someone reliable and can kick a long ball (through the uprights preferrable).
Dennis in NC Posted June 19, 2006 Posted June 19, 2006 I'm not going to even get into this because apparently most of you have no reading comprehension and cannot understand what Willis actually said. He was asked about the best RB's and who he thought was the best, and he said "of course you are going to say that you are the best", then mentioned some other names. 710182[/snapback] This is the point most Willis bashers choose to ignore. Willis was asked a loaded question about "who is the best RB?" Naturally, he picks himself, but mentions some other guys. People can't seem to figure out WM's personality, and the way it makes him seem like he does not give a **** about "the team" and all. Or makes him look like a "me" guy. There was a great little story about Willis running into Ralph Wilson at a bar (at an athletic club?) in Miami. I wish I had the quotes, but the gist was that Willis says WM: "Are you Wilson?" yadda yadda WM: "You play tennis?" wilson replies that he does WM: "I could beat you..." It was a great insight into Willis and his thought process...
Ramius Posted June 19, 2006 Posted June 19, 2006 This is the point most Willis bashers choose to ignore. Willis was asked a loaded question about "who is the best RB?" Naturally, he picks himself, but mentions some other guys. People can't seem to figure out WM's personality, and the way it makes him seem like he does not give a **** about "the team" and all. Or makes him look like a "me" guy. There was a great little story about Willis running into Ralph Wilson at a bar (at an athletic club?) in Miami. I wish I had the quotes, but the gist was that Willis says WM: "Are you Wilson?" yadda yadda WM: "You play tennis?" wilson replies that he does WM: "I could beat you..." It was a great insight into Willis and his thought process... 710677[/snapback] I think a lot fo people hate willis because he isnt a hard nosed blue collar lunch pail type of guy. He grew up in miami, which is a different world compared to buffalo. But willis brings it 100% on sundays, when it matters. I guarantee if willis went to school at michigan or ohio st or some other cold weather school, people wouldnt give him half the crap they do now. And as for ralph, the guy is almost 90. If willis couldnt beat him in tennis there'd be a problem. Just hit shots and make wilson run his old ass all over the court
UConn James Posted June 19, 2006 Posted June 19, 2006 We should have dumped him last year. The only reason he was slightly better, is we didn't get any decent field position for him to miss more. We need a Steve Christie or a Scotty Norwood, someone reliable and can kick a long ball (through the uprights preferrable). 710505[/snapback] Tell me that TBD is the only website you can access and that the incessant nonsensical grumblers here have gotten to you. Tell me you can't look at the stats readily available at NFL.com. It's right there under L or 'kickers'. Tell me you can't read that Lindell had shoulder surgery last offseason that threw off his technique 2 seasons ago. Tell me you can't read the Transaction Sheet and notice our kickers fared much better and really, really, really, really, really, really like Mike Schneck as their LS. Not to disrespect Jon Dorenbos, but TD let a guy stick around for too long based on a human interest story. Tell me you can't read through the FA lists. What are you suggesting, that we dig up Nick Lowry from Shady Pines Retirement Home? Name someone available and w/in the budget who is better..... Thought so.
Bills/Sabresfan Posted June 21, 2006 Author Posted June 21, 2006 Tell me that TBD is the only website you can access and that the incessant nonsensical grumblers here have gotten to you. Tell me you can't look at the stats readily available at NFL.com. It's right there under L or 'kickers'. Tell me you can't read that Lindell had shoulder surgery last offseason that threw off his technique 2 seasons ago. Tell me you can't read the Transaction Sheet and notice our kickers fared much better and really, really, really, really, really, really like Mike Schneck as their LS. Not to disrespect Jon Dorenbos, but TD let a guy stick around for too long based on a human interest story. Tell me you can't read through the FA lists. What are you suggesting, that we dig up Nick Lowry from Shady Pines Retirement Home? Name someone available and w/in the budget who is better..... Thought so. 710690[/snapback] James, You need to chill out on all the critical comments about fellow posters, including myself. Just because some of us don't share your views does not make them wrong. Have some respect for fellow fans. I am not going to get into a stupid confrontation with you over it, just show some class. This team has sucked for so long, we are all searching for answeres to make them good again.
Dibs Posted June 21, 2006 Posted June 21, 2006 I have faith in Lindell. Apart from the loads of good points people have made backing him up on this thread.... As we all know(or should), Marv is a huge proponent for the 'kicking' teams(special teams). I cannot stress that enough. He considers them a full 1/3 of the team...as important as offense or defense. Considering we have a gazillion dollars under the cap....& considering there were an unusual number of top, top kickers on FA...it is hard to imagine that if Lindell is anything but above average that Marv would not have made a move on one of the FA kickers. In regards to UConn James' comment of available & within budget....all of the kickers below were both available & within budget(considering Marv would probably justify paying top dollar for his loved 'kicking teams') Adam Vinatieri Mike Vanderjagt Ryan Longwell Todd Peterson Joe Nedney AV & MV both possible HOFers with the others as legit first class starters.(if a bit old in some cases) Also Marv could have tried for Josh Brown of the Seahawks who was a RFA. As I said, with all those top kickers available....I have complete faith that Lindell will minimally get the job done.
UConn James Posted June 21, 2006 Posted June 21, 2006 James,You need to chill out on all the critical comments about fellow posters, including myself. Just because some of us don't share your views does not make them wrong. Have some respect for fellow fans. I am not going to get into a stupid confrontation with you over it, just show some class. This team has sucked for so long, we are all searching for answeres to make them good again. 711480[/snapback] Ooooo! Critical comments (which you seem to be equating to personal attacks that never took place)?!! You think those are critical comments? Read an Alaska Darin post and then get back to me. You're right, it doesn't make you wrong. It just means you're ignoring the pertinent evidence and predicting failure for Lindell, just because you can. I'm not exactly an eternal optimist but even I can say that Lindell is a big reason why we've been among the top STs in the league for the past few years and he's getting even better. I think Marv knows enough that you don't try to fix something that isn't broken. If you don't want people shaking your peaches, come up with something better than 'Replace Lindell!' He was maybe the team's lone bright spot last season. Dibs, that list is a little misleading. Longwell signed with Minn *toot sweet*. Agree there are age issues with the rest in addition to... Vanderjagt and Nedney are both warm-weather kickers who've struggled once they hit the elements. Todd Peterson did well from mid-distance and yet... no one else has signed him. Vinatieri seems to still have some miles left, but certainly not for the jack he got from the Colts. Cutting Lindell free IIRC would put ~$1M in dead space on the cap.
cantankerous Posted June 21, 2006 Posted June 21, 2006 Considering how well Lindell kicked last year I can't believe this topic was even brought up...
bartshan-83 Posted June 21, 2006 Posted June 21, 2006 I thought DJ and Marv would of released Lindell by now. I always thought he only stayed around because of TD and his pride. I think Paul Edinger was recently released and I think he would be a good, bad weather kicker. If we are starting over, lets include the kicking game.Is anyone else confused by what type of offense we are going to run? At first, it seemed like run,run and more run. Now we read aout Steve Fairchild and how well the QB's are throwing the long ball. How can a team with an inexperienced QB and a terrible line not focus heavily on the run??? Who here is sick of Willis???? He seems like a typical cocky punk who doesn't seem to want to play for the team anyways. It makes me so mad that our stud running back is too good to work with the team for the OTA's. F - him. and all the idiots from the U that train together. I would gladly take Lionel Gates as the starter or anyone who plays with passion and is proud to be a Bill. I don't think he is a Marv type player and I hope he is shown the door. For some strange reason, I have a feeling that JP is going to do much better this year. No reason for it , other then because Jerry (IDIOT) Sullivan wrote about it the other day. Can't the News do better then this clown Jerry Sullivan ??? He seems like a bitter man who takes his anger out in his columns. He is like the guy who wasn't an athlete growing up and still holds in that anger as an adult. It is so hard to read his column. My last point. John Murphy is not a good play by play man. I listen to audio of other team announcers and Murph is bad, in my opinion. Once again, if we are righting this wrong, can Murph! Bring in someone with passion and someone with energy. Make this team sound fun and exciting even if they really put us to sleep. 709891[/snapback] Just to further what others have mentioned, you seem to have picked the absolute wrong times to make these comments. 1.) Lindell was a very good kicker last year. 2.) Look, I'm pretty interested in my man Gates as well....but I am really starting to wonder where this collective TBD hard-on for our Louisville man is coming from? What has he possibly shown you that leads you to believe he is even good enough to be a #2 RB (let alone unseat one of the more talented RBs in the league)?? Sometimes I feel that fans get attached to certain players really without cause. I would love to see more of Gates on the field, but he has a long way to go before he is starting over a repeat 1100+ yd RB. Furthermore, what makes you think he is "proud" to be on the Bills? Showing up to a few OTAs is great, but I have no reason not to believe he is just in it for a paycheck. 3.) Jerry Sullivan is a cranky, annoying bastige....but what is strange about your post is that he has actually written maybe his ONLY two positive Bills articles of the decade in the last month or so. You have some weird timing my friend.
stuckincincy Posted June 21, 2006 Posted June 21, 2006 2.) Look, I'm pretty interested in my man Gates as well....but I am really starting to wonder where this collective TBD hard-on for our Louisville man is coming from? 711521[/snapback] He'll just have to prove himself in camp. I know some wonder why he didn't get any game action last season - but of course, 7th round RB's seldom show up on active game rosters. I didn't dislike the pick, but he was in the same backfield with FB Eric Sheldon, so it's a bit harder to evaluate his college work. Shelton, CAR's '05 2nd rounder, didn't see any game action either.
Mickey Posted June 21, 2006 Posted June 21, 2006 I think you are being ridiculous here. Not every player has to be a "leader". Willis seems like the kind of guy who is just not going to kiss the butts of fans who want him to train with the team. Many players from the U train together down there, and they are certainly not lounging on the beach. (The link has expired, but I can post the whole article if you wish) And you talk about Jerry Sullivan being a bitter man? Holy crap, you sure seem to have issues. Like every player from the old regime should be kicked to the curb? Just for the sake of change? Lindell had a good year last year, much to the surprise of MOST OF US, I'm sure. 709901[/snapback] I think Lindell rescued his career last year. He played very well so we aren't going to see any change at PK unless and until that changes. As for Willis, I am tired of all this talk about character. As long as the guy doesn't have a drug problem or other problems with the law and obeys most of the team rules, the only thing I care about is performance on the field. Cookie Gilchrist was a nut case but he could play and I think he stayed out of jail for the most part. Lots of great players have been total jerks off the field. Let the boy scouts raise good citizens, these are grown men, professionals, measure them by the job they do, not whether they say "please" and "thank you".
Orton's Arm Posted June 22, 2006 Posted June 22, 2006 Is anyone else confused by what type of offense we are going to run? At first, it seemed like run,run and more run. Now we read aout Steve Fairchild and how well the QB's are throwing the long ball. How can a team with an inexperienced QB and a terrible line not focus heavily on the run??? How can a team without a line expect to run the ball effectively? If you don't have an offensive line--a situation which the Bills may well be in--the best play you can choose is the short pass. Dump the ball off after two seconds, knowing the defensive linemen can get to the QB in 2 1/2 seconds. Take your five yard gain, do the same thing again next play, and move the chains. It's not an ideal offense; but it's the only kind that can be anywhere close to effective without an offensive line. Of course, this offense is the opposite of what Fairchild ran when he was calling the plays in St. Louis. Based on what I saw, his playcalling did a nice job of using Steven Jackson to pound the ball, and of using the deep pass to make the offense very dangerous. It's a good scheme, and I hope the Bills will come to have the line and the quarterback to run it effectively.
Oneonta Buffalo Fan Posted June 22, 2006 Posted June 22, 2006 Lindell has proved to be a pretty darn good kicker for this team. I feel bad for all the criticism he got before.
TigerJ Posted June 23, 2006 Posted June 23, 2006 do you say McGahee is a "me guy" because he skipped the OTA's? Do you have inside information about Willis you'd like to share? Did he tell you he doesn't give a sh-- about the team and is all about his own personal goals? What do you really know? Please tell. 710150[/snapback] I am not privy to any inside info. I have an opinion, to which I am entitled, and which I am free to express. That opinion is due to a combination of things which are general knowledge and have already been expressed including his habit of ignoring OTAs, quotations in which he expresses no loyalty whatsoever to the Bills, and a general impression that when he's not happy he doesn't try very hard.
Dibs Posted June 23, 2006 Posted June 23, 2006 I am not privy to any inside info. I have an opinion, to which I am entitled, and which I am free to express. That opinion is due to a combination of things which are general knowledge and have already been expressed including his habit of ignoring OTAs, quotations in which he expresses no loyalty whatsoever to the Bills, and a general impression that when he's not happy he doesn't try very hard. 712827[/snapback] I think the point cantankerous was making is that perhaps WM being known as a 'me' guy is an unjustified label. At the start of the great 'glory days' for the Bills, the team was dubbed by the media as the 'Bickering Bills'. This was due to a couple of incidents generally taken out of context. The end result being that the entire team was tarred with a brush that none deserved let alone all of them. Is it possible that our views on WM being a 'me' guy are perhaps based on media reports(slanting) that form a more salacious view than the reality?
cantankerous Posted June 23, 2006 Posted June 23, 2006 Exactly Dibs. People need to stop being so damn sensitive about players missing a voluntary practice and getting caught up in "Willis said he's the best, how dare he!" C'mon people, just root for the Bills and stop all this nonsense of bashing our team. There are enough people bashing Buffalo already that aren't fans.
Pyrite Gal Posted June 23, 2006 Posted June 23, 2006 The silliest thing about the anti-Lindell rants is that as best as I can see from a football judgment standpoint, even with a credible case to be made against Lindell after the 04 season as he missed a chip shot FG in the Pitts game which highlighted an ST failure in that game (along with Clements laying a PR on the carpet) and a D meltdown highlighted by an (inability to stop the run and third down conversions by a Pitts team run by their 2nd and lowe string back-ups) which joined with an inability of this Bledsoe QB'ed team to make for a dismal failure). However, even after these Lindell issues, it was still a close call whether he was a good enough kicker to keep because he simply excelled at other crtical partys of his job which were a key to us pulling off the substantial win streak which left us just short of the playoffs. In 04 Lindell deserves great props for: 1. Being the placekicker on the #1 statistical ST in the league which did not give up a single TD return and even few if any long KRs that year. Lindell was essentially flawless that year in kicking it where he was supposed to kickoff to at the proper height to give the coverage guys ample time to get downfield and make tackles. Yhis was a team which relied heavily on directional kicking to produce great coverage results and particularly in the winds of the Ralph this is no simple task. Folks routinely focus merely on the placekicking game as the FG % is easy to see, but as it is guaranteed that a team if going to kickoff at least once per game and actually as the Bills kept scoring points during the streak, they kicked off multiple times per game, kickoffs were a big part of the placekickers work. Yet folks blithely say cut hom or suggest alternatives like Edinger with little or no mention about how this replacement will be at being the initiator and a key actor in the coverage game. 2. Another crtical role for the kicker is in shooting for onisde kicks. My recollection was that in '04 the Bills called upon Lindell to do this 3 times. In one the other team recovered, but in the emphamise Pitts game he actually bounced the kick properly so the first wave of the opponents hands team missed the ball and Lindell did his job and Baker had a shot at recovering the ball but missed his chance. Giving his players a chance to make plays is really all you can reasonably ask of a kicker. The other chance was really a work of art by Lindell which really stuck a fork in the Miami team we were playing. Qw jumpe out to an early lead but behind the effective first half rushing of former Bill Sammy Morris, the Fins were looking to get the ball to open the second half and make a game of it. Instead, Lindell not only led the ST unit in convincing the opponents they were going to kick away, but he pooched it himself the proper speed and disatance so he made the recovery himself 10 yards downfield and managed to get it the necessary 10 yards prior to any Bill making contact with a Fin as is required by the rule. Lindell demonstrated that he could be a force on this play which played a role in 3 close games. 3. The chip shot miss was an egregious and difficult to forgive sin. However, the wrap on Lindell for the most part was not that he was inaccurate in 04, but actually that he had not demonstrated long range accuracy in games or even in practice to make the Bills HC confident in him. Again outside of the chip shot miss, he actually had proved to be quite accurate forthe 40 in and it was longer kicks which was the question. The most impressive thing about Lindell improving his accuracy last year was that he did this while his team remained the #1 statistical ST and he showed no signs of losing his outstanding performance ability in other critical placekicker jobs. If he stayed when his accuracy problems made it a close call when joined with his very good performances at other essential parts of his game, means that with a solution (at least last year) to his placekicking problems it is not even a close call whether he will be kept.
MikeSpeed Posted June 23, 2006 Posted June 23, 2006 Exactly Dibs. People need to stop being so damn sensitive about players missing a voluntary practice and getting caught up in "Willis said he's the best, how dare he!" C'mon people, just root for the Bills and stop all this nonsense of bashing our team. There are enough people bashing Buffalo already that aren't fans. 712935[/snapback] Oh I'm sorry! Is this better. We have such a wonderful team. The offense is just a scoring machine thanks to our superior o-line and great quarterbacking. And our defense... I just dare anyone to try to run against us. It going to be a great year as we become the second undefeated team in NFL history. Get a grip. First off, I didn't know WM was the team. Second I never said that WM wasn't a good RB. I was saying I believe WM doesn't play this game to get a team win. He plays to promote himself. You can not tell me that he doesn't and I can not tell you he does. But I can tell you that that's how he come across to me. Lastly family can talk about family. Just don't let someone outside the family say something about us!
Pyrite Gal Posted June 23, 2006 Posted June 23, 2006 Oh I'm sorry! Is this better.We have such a wonderful team. The offense is just a scoring machine thanks to our superior o-line and great quarterbacking. And our defense... I just dare anyone to try to run against us. It going to be a great year as we become the second undefeated team in NFL history. Get a grip. First off, I didn't know WM was the team. Second I never said that WM wasn't a good RB. I was saying I believe WM doesn't play this game to get a team win. He plays to promote himself. You can not tell me that he doesn't and I can not tell you he does. But I can tell you that that's how he come across to me. Lastly family can talk about family. Just don't let someone outside the family say something about us! 712970[/snapback] I really extremely really doubt this is going to be a wonderful team. However, for me, I think one's attitude toward the team's prospects and how one chooses to be react to the team's prospects says a lot more about the fan than about the team. Both a pessimistic view of the prospects or an optimistic view about its future are legit in my view. One of the neat things about being a fan in the NFL is that we all have a free choice whether to take the prospects are be hopeful about them or conclude that the prospects are bleak. However, the good news is that the team is undefeated right now and that in the NFL where worse to first is possible like never before while a bleak view of the future is almost certainly the "smart" assessment to make, it is simply the real case where the difference in performance by a bad team and a good team while clearly different is not that far apart. NFL athletes operate at such a high level (even the less good one's) that differences in production can occur because the oddly shaped ball happens to bounce a certain way, the athletes get inspired by some unfortunate occurences (the Pats for example I believe owe their first SB win to their starting QB Bledsoe getting his lung collapsed and Brady coming in as the starter and the team truly becoming a TEAM. I think they owe their 2nd SB win (which came after they missed the playoffs completely bookended by these two SB wins) to boy genius Belicheck completely misreading how to handle the Milloy situation leading to members of the team publicly calling him out as a fool, but injuries like the one to Colvin again led to these men becoming a TEAM). Its simply legit for folks to either judge this team as half empty or half full (or 3/4 empty and 1/4 full) because they are the same thing and it really says a lot more about the poster which perspective they take at this off-season point than about the Bills. There are legitimate points of debate. Is it really a half-empty or half full situation or alternately a 3/4 empty/1/4 full situation. However, the starting point posters choose to start from simply says more about how the poster chooses to ROOT or participate in this game. This is particularly true at this off-season point where reality is not set at all and the team rosters are still not settled at all. Personally, my approach is not to draw any conclusion about this team being a likely success or a drop-dead certain dismal failure this year (there will be plenty of time for that as the team approaches if last game 5-10 and we are thinking bout draft prospects from at positions 6 to 10 or we are 9-6 and potentially can make the playoffs with a win and some help). Instead, my approach is to ask WHAT in fact needs to happen for this team to get as many Ws as it reasonably can get. At this point, I see this team likelty being at least competitive with a reasonable shot at winning probably 13 of 16 games, This does not mean I think they will go 13-3 as it strikes me as fairly reasonable that they will lose at least half these 13 which if that means they lose 7 of the 13 plus the 3 losses they finish 6-10 and the one game improvement over last year's record is a pretty disappointing season in my book. However, unless the poster knows football so well that they have a record of predicting that NE would win the SB in 2001 after their starting QB got nailed, or that this SB team would miss the playoffs the next year, and that this team which missed the playoffs would win the SB the next year, its hard to take these predictions of DOOM or glory very seriously. Even if one does not operate at these extremes of failure and success, I think there are few (if any) folks who had the Bills going 9-7 in MM's first year (with much of the 9 coming in an incredibly unlikely 7 game winning streak) AND then also had them plummeting to 5-11 with him losing his job last year. Anyone whose views of great doom this year or alternately anyone who predicts a playoff berth is simply hard to take very seriously. Again, I am not saying that the nuts and bolts are so indeterminate that prediction is useless or not interesting to discuss. That's what TSW is all about Charlie Brown. I'm just saying that the more extreme the prediction (3-13 or 13-3) the more laughable it is. Overall, I think getting a grip means: 1. While WM ain't the team, how he will do will determine alot about how we will do (unless folks see Thomas or Gates unseating him). My sense is that while there is reasonable stuff to be troubled about (his production outage in the second half of the season), there is also a great deal to be hopeful about as well (he is the fastest Bill RB to rush for 2000 yards, he has not exhibited any serious recieving dropsies in college or during his brief pro career which makes it quite possible Fairchild will be able to get him to be passable (though not great--yet) in the Marshall Faulk role of a new Bills O. In fact, the quality of the OL play (which seems to have better starters than MW and Anderson this year than last but is pretty thin for back-ups) will have more to say about determining WM production than his quality as a runner or whether he attended OTAs or not. 2. I think folks will be really disapointed if they choose to ROOT for WM because they are looking for leadership or because they choose to have sex with him and risk becoming a "baby momma". However, he can still be a very productive Bills RB and a pleasure to have on our team even if he is in no way a team leader and is simply a me guy (ala Bruce Smith). All this OTA and personality stuff obviously relates to productivity on the football field, but far less than production relates to productivity of the football field. If folks really want to get a grip then they should simply wait and see if he produces when handed the ball and whether Farichild can develop and run an effective O (given the larger questions than WM productivity that OL and QB performance provide). I think posters actually show the clearest evidence of getting a grip when they show that they are ignoring all the soap opera dime store psychology stuff and instead waiting the short time now until we get to see the team on the field. 3. Lastly. the neat thing about the Bills family compared to a real family is that while one does not get to choose your blod relatives, you do get to choose to be a member of the Bills family. I defend my real family because I have no choice. My mother, father, and sister and brothers will be my family whether I like it or not (though we all can transgress and there are some limits to my support such as I probably will not lie for them if they kill someone. However, being a part of the Bills family is all by choice. Here too the legitimate criticism and horseplay negativism are part of the game and the fun. However, if all folks have to say is about DOOM and particularly if all they have is negativism at this point when the team is undefeated so far this season, there is a legit question as to whether folks might best not let the door hit them on the way out. Its only reasonable to be somewhat negative about a 5-11 team which has missed the playoffs 5 years running. One of the neat things about the NFL is that we all are free to get enjoyment from this product any legal way we want to. However, it simply says a lot more a bout the poster who gets their enjoyment from living only in the DOOM world. Real life is too unpredictable to really have any certainty that this is what the future holds for this team.
MikeSpeed Posted June 23, 2006 Posted June 23, 2006 Oh good lord! Stop trying to make more out of what I’m saying that what is being said! NEVER did I say the Bills suck, or will suck in anyway shape or form! Never did I say WM sucks in anyway shape or form, other than saying I believe him to be self-absorbed. He comes across to ME as someone who is more interested in his own fortune and fame, than he is at getting the Bills (or any other team) to the SB. If he was on another team I’d still get that impression from him. Does that mean I don’t like him playing for the Bills? No, it doesn’t mean that! Does that mean that I think he’s not going to play hard for the Bills? No because even if he is self-absorbed that wouldn’t benefit him. I think he is a very good RB, and could be a great one. Do I think his attitude could affect the team? Yes, it could. Will it? No one knows. Maybe it was the TO comment I made, or something else that set this off, but you are way off base if you think I’m the type who cries doom and gloom all the time. Jeesh!
Recommended Posts