More Insight as to Why Younger Folks...

[Pyrite Gal]

I think s lot of this is different strokes for different folks and the general state that American society is about the individual rather than the collective.

 

For me, Buffalo was at its peak population in the 50s at 625,000 amd around that time at it economic zenith by many measures. Today the population is just below 300K and it is said to be in a economic trough and by many measures and factoids such as the need for control boards for the city and the county it is.

 

However. if the economy were such that there were twice as many people in this city there is no way I could live here.

 

The economic pits that the city and region are in creates a neat middle for me in that as a consultant I can command a wage set to compete at national levels and live in an area which through housing primarily and a good ability to pick and choose what I spend on I get what I want at a pretty reasonable cost for me,

 

Even looking at the high tax rate compared to many Americans which no citizen can avoid, there actually are a number of services I have here that my other friends in the stix in WI or NC do not have as I have seen in recent discussions and any higher cost her due to inefficiencies are higher rates of payment but actually are a low enough actual amount that I can easily tolerate the inefficiencies with the level of income I command and with assets we have collected and my wife earned the good old fashion way of America by inheriting them.

 

Though I think this society would be a bit better if we were a bit more collective in out approach, our society has chosen to be more individualistic.

 

I do not think this is a good choice, but it certainly is one which I find I can quite easily take advantage of to maximize my personal profits and asset mananagement making use of both the plodding business community and the inefficiency of government.

 

The main good thing for me is my family and I perceive this will be the case if we are lucky and that the middle should continue to exist for my useful lifespan whether young people leave or not because society changes to a more collective approach.

[sdevo]

I think s lot of this is different strokes for different folks and the general state that American society is about the individual rather than the collective.

 

For me, Buffalo was at its peak population in the 50s at 625,000 amd around that time at it economic zenith by many measures. Today the population is just below 300K and it is said to be in a economic trough and by many measures and factoids such as the need for control boards for the city and the county it is.

 

However. if the economy were such that there were twice as many people in this city there is no way I could live here.

 

The economic pits that the city and region are in creates a neat middle for me in that as a consultant I can command a wage set to compete at national levels and live in an area  which through housing primarily and a good ability to pick and choose what I spend on I get what I want at a pretty reasonable cost for me,

 

Even looking at the high tax rate compared to many Americans which no citizen can avoid, there actually are a number of services I have here that my other friends in the stix in WI or NC do not have as I have seen in recent discussions and any higher cost her due to inefficiencies are higher rates of payment but actually are a low enough actual amount that I can easily tolerate the inefficiencies with the level of income I command and with assets we have collected and my wife earned the good old fashion way of America by inheriting them.

 

Though I think this society would be a bit better if we were a bit more collective in out approach, our society has chosen to be more individualistic.

 

I do not think this is a good choice, but it certainly is one which I find I can quite easily take advantage of to maximize my personal profits and asset mananagement making use of both the plodding business community and the inefficiency of government.

 

The main good thing for me is my family and I perceive this will be the case if we are lucky and that the middle should continue to exist for my useful lifespan whether young people leave or not because society changes to a more collective approach.

708134[/snapback]

 

What services or quaility of services are available from your tax dollars in NY that are not avaiable in most places in the country

[indiragandhi'sthong]

I have lived in NY State my whole life ... for a time in the Binghamton area (talk about depressing) - mostly in Niagara County. I moved back to WNY because this is where I want my kids raised, but you are correct in your assessment of the situation.

 

To me, the biggest problem resides not in Albany, but in the anchor that is NY City. Western and Central NY pay for the cesspool that is the "big apple" ... city residents get to take a nice big chunk of the juicy apple, while what we get is mostly the core. I have always said that it is a shame two states were not fomed (i.e. Virginia and West Virginia) - New York (NYC, Duchess and Westchester) and Northern New York (Central & Western) - the downstaters (for the most part) don't care for us (except for our tax dollars and accessible colleges) AND I, FOR ONE, CAN'T STAND THE CITY AND ITS ARROGANT INHABITANTS. I sympathize with that area and the tragedy that was 9/11 ... but if I never get to the city again, it will be too soon.

 

Since this is a sports site, I never understood WNY's fascination with teams from the city (Yankees, Mets, Giants, Jets, Rangers, Islanders, Devils, Knicks, Nets, etc.) - that area "craps" all over us and despises us, yet soooo many WNYer's fall all over themselves with (for one) Yankee souvenirs ... support some other team that isn't making life difficult here.

 

Enough for my rant ... just realize where a lot of our hard-earned money is going and you, too will abhor all NYC teams.

 

 

This is to add insight into the NY Times article which Dave McBride linked us to.

 

Some facts about NYS...

 

1) Highest tax burden of any state.  Nearly $5300 for every man, woman and child.

(to get some perspective, California's tax burden is $3800 for every man, woman, and child)

2) NYS has the highest electricity costs in the continental US @11.8 cents per KW hr.  Only Hawaii is higher.  The National avg. is 7.2 cents

3) The cost for Workers Compensation Insurance in this state is triple the cost in any other state.  Yes, this state is a treasure trove for trial lawyers... the folks at Alexander and Catalano are heavy hitters and they are on your side... they will get you the money you deserve.

4) One of every 4 jobs is a union job... twice the national average.

5) NYS has the slowest job growth rate of any state except for Maine, NH, and Vermont.

6) Property taxes have doubled, and even tripled in some regions of NYS in the past 10 years.

 

There are more tidbits that I could throw out to you... but this is depressing enough.

OK, so ask yourself this question... why would any business or corporation want to locate in NYS?  The answer is no business that wants to make a reasonable profit.  The costs are simply too high.

 

So, what is the problem?  Simple, you have a dysfunctional and corrupt state government... basically the senate and assembly are not going to stand up to the union lobby and the trial lawyer lobby.  That's who get the politicians elected and then pays them off. The cost of living in this state will continue to rise and the exodus of our youth will continue on to greener pastures.  Eliot Spitzer, our next governor will not change this. I've never known a NY Democrat to reduce spending and cut taxes.  He can't, or won't, stand up to Sheldon Silver and Jim Bruno.  And even if he does, these two political scumbags will only be replaced by some other "downstaters" who don't give a camel turd about "upstate".  Remember this... There are approximately 18 million New Yorkers.  10-11 million of them live within 75 miles of NYC.  The rest live in upstate.  In an election, downtate votes one way and upstate votes another way... and downstate always wins and will continue to win.

 

I'm a lifelonf NYS (upstate) resifdent and I had a serious moment of reflection a year  ago.  No matter how emmotional I am attached to this region, I reached a painful and agonizing conclusion after realistically looking at everything in total... and that is this...  New York State is done!  Finished, as we know and knew it.

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[Bill from NYC]

I have lived in NY State my whole life ... for a time in the Binghamton area (talk about depressing) - mostly in Niagara County. I moved back to WNY because this is where I want my kids raised, but you are correct in your assessment of the situation.

 

To me, the biggest problem resides not in Albany, but in the anchor that is NY City. Western and Central NY pay for the cesspool that is the "big apple" ... city residents get to take a nice big chunk of the juicy apple, while what we get is mostly the core. I have always said that it is a shame two states were not fomed (i.e. Virginia and West Virginia) - New York (NYC, Duchess and Westchester) and Northern New York (Central & Western) - the downstaters (for the most part) don't care for us (except for our tax dollars and accessible colleges) AND I, FOR ONE, CAN'T STAND THE CITY AND ITS ARROGANT INHABITANTS. I sympathize with that area and the tragedy that was 9/11 ... but if I never get to the city again, it will be too soon.

 

Since this is a sports site, I never understood WNY's fascination with teams from the city (Yankees, Mets, Giants, Jets, Rangers, Islanders, Devils, Knicks, Nets, etc.) - that area "craps" all over us and despises us, yet soooo many WNYer's fall all over themselves with (for one) Yankee souvenirs ... support some other team that isn't making life difficult here.

 

Enough for my rant ... just realize where a lot of our hard-earned money is going and you, too will abhor all NYC teams.

708190[/snapback]

 

I have lived in NYC and Long Island my entire life, and I have not ever heard one person say that they "despise" WNY. I am serious, not one person.

 

I think it is fair to make the statement that the weather is a bit worse in WNY than here, so many (like my wife) would be reluctant to move to a colder climate, but that is the only complaint I ever heard. Nice people, good food, the Bills.....what's to despise?

 

Something tells me that you are reading WAY too much into things.

[RuntheDamnBall]

I have lived in NY State my whole life ... for a time in the Binghamton area (talk about depressing) - mostly in Niagara County. I moved back to WNY because this is where I want my kids raised, but you are correct in your assessment of the situation.

 

To me, the biggest problem resides not in Albany, but in the anchor that is NY City. Western and Central NY pay for the cesspool that is the "big apple" ... city residents get to take a nice big chunk of the juicy apple, while what we get is mostly the core. I have always said that it is a shame two states were not fomed (i.e. Virginia and West Virginia) - New York (NYC, Duchess and Westchester) and Northern New York (Central & Western) - the downstaters (for the most part) don't care for us (except for our tax dollars and accessible colleges) AND I, FOR ONE, CAN'T STAND THE CITY AND ITS ARROGANT INHABITANTS. I sympathize with that area and the tragedy that was 9/11 ... but if I never get to the city again, it will be too soon.

 

Since this is a sports site, I never understood WNY's fascination with teams from the city (Yankees, Mets, Giants, Jets, Rangers, Islanders, Devils, Knicks, Nets, etc.) - that area "craps" all over us and despises us, yet soooo many WNYer's fall all over themselves with (for one) Yankee souvenirs ... support some other team that isn't making life difficult here.

 

Enough for my rant ... just realize where a lot of our hard-earned money is going and you, too will abhor all NYC teams.

708190[/snapback]

When is this myth going to get old? Whose government is under a control board right now? Here's a hint -- not NYC's.

 

As a young WNY-er expat who calls the city home, the feeling is mutual. Tell me how the area 'craps all over you'? New York TEAMS are making life difficult for you? Give me a freaking break. BTW, Giants, Jets, Nets, Devils? They have New Jersey to 'crap on.'

 

I moved downstate because there were job opportunities. WNY offered none. I would love to have stayed but I would have been pinched by the taxes and lower earning power and had less chance of finding a job that I would love. Your post highlights that WNY is an area that needs to stop feeling sorry for itself and taking the victim mantle, and start looking at ways to improve the same way that New York City has. It didn't happen by accident. It took careful planning, attracting entrepreneurs, getting tough (perhaps too tough in instances, but tough nonetheless) on crime, and attracting the dreaded young people and immigrants WNY seems to fear so much.

 

By the way, every friend I have who lives / has lived in Buffalo has had their car stolen or broken into. When my wife and I went down to Pearl St (an old fave) for dinner last holidays, the car we borrowed from her parents got broken into. This was at 7pm, not late night. Buffalo has real problems. If you think that secession or calling out downstate/NYC will work better than looking to Buffalo's own elected representatives and pushing for real reform in Albany, be my guest. Right now, WNY is exhibit A of how badly that strategy is working.

[Benjamin Franklin]

I just did a search on Realtor.com for homes in Amherst (which I assume is one of the more affluent Buffalo suburbs) vs. homes where I live in Montgomery County PA (outside Philly).

 

The price difference was not as much as I expected. In both places, you can get a nice 2500 sq ft home for about 300K. Still, you definitely seem to get more in Amherst than where I am--maybe the difference for equivalent homes is 100K.

 

Given the Philly economy--not a powerhouse, but still pretty massive--it's no wonder people would be willing to move here, get maybe 25% less bang for their housing buck, but have a higher salary and more job security. In and around most big cities, if you lose one job, there are often several others to take its place. In Buffalo, you often can't say the same thing.

[Peter Griffin]

http://www.10nbc.com/news.asp?template=item&story_id=19132

 

http://www.star-gazette.com/apps/pbcs.dll/.../606130309/1001

 

http://www.democratandchronicle.com/apps/p...80356/1002/NEWS

 

Yeah, those bastards don't deserve that kind of compensation.

707729[/snapback]

 

In the private sector, your salary is dictated solely by how much it costs to replace you if you quit. It seems there is a problem w/ jobs like teachers and firemen in NY when you have several qualified applicants for each opening (no offense to the teachers or firemen on the list). Also, your salary has nothing to do with whether or not your job is dangerous; otherwise, truck drivers, construction workers, and soldiers would get paid $250 k per year.

 

We all want to make more $$$ out of our own selfish desires to have better toys, but if every person's salary in the world were doubled, then cars, houses, boats and TVs would also double in price and the teachers and firemen (or anyone) would be left complaining they didn't make enough. What people are really saying when they complain about salaries is that they want to make more money relative to all the other fields because they view their work as more noble.

 

Go Bills!!!!!!

[dave mcbride]

When is this myth going to get old?  Whose government is under a control board right now?  Here's a hint -- not NYC's.

 

As a young WNY-er expat who calls the city home, the feeling is mutual.  Tell me how the area 'craps all over you'?  New York TEAMS are making life difficult for you?  Give me a freaking break.  BTW, Giants, Jets, Nets, Devils?  They have New Jersey to 'crap on.'

 

I moved downstate because there were job opportunities.  WNY offered none.  I would love to have stayed but I would have been pinched by the taxes and lower earning power and had less chance of finding a job that I would love.  Your post highlights that WNY is an area that needs to stop feeling sorry for itself and taking the victim mantle, and start looking at ways to improve the same way that New York City has.  It didn't happen by accident.  It took careful planning, attracting entrepreneurs, getting tough (perhaps too tough in instances, but tough nonetheless) on crime, and attracting the dreaded young people and immigrants WNY seems to fear so much.

 

By the way, every friend I have who lives / has lived in Buffalo has had their car stolen or broken into.  When my wife and I went down to Pearl St (an old fave) for dinner last holidays, the car we borrowed from her parents got broken into.  This was at 7pm, not late night.  Buffalo has real problems.  If you think that secession or calling out downstate/NYC will work better than looking to Buffalo's own elected representatives and pushing for real reform in Albany, be my guest.  Right now, WNY is exhibit A of how badly that strategy is working.

708205[/snapback]

thank you. btw, don't you live in the slope?

[RuntheDamnBall]

thank you. btw, don't you live in the slope?

708248[/snapback]

I live in Greenpoint. The slope is nice and when we look to have kids, we may end up there. Right now we like our backyard, the quiet, and the pierogies.

[dave mcbride]

I live in Greenpoint.  The slope is nice and when we look to have kids, we may end up there.  Right now we like our backyard, the quiet, and the pierogies.

708250[/snapback]

we live there (and have a backyard!). it's a great place if you have kids (like us).

[respk]

.....

 

I wonder how many people realize that Rochester has more going for it than Buffalo?

708043[/snapback]

 

 

Ummm....Since Buffalo is in dire straits right now, being better than Buffalo isn't much. Which is exactly what Rochester has, not much. It's a minor league city that thinks even smaller and is incapable of ever righting itself. The Fast Ferry being the prime example. Millions of dollars spent on something that's sole realistic purpose was to transport Rochesterians to someplace else to spend money with no chance of enough Torontonians coming to Rochester to offset the outflux. And whose idea was this, The City of Rochester whose residents mostly fall under the poverty line and could not afford to utilize the service. That is the kind of thinking in Rochester. Rochester's idea for new events is a week long Jazz festival that is both poorly attended and impossible to find.

 

But your right, if Buffalo is a 1 out of 10, Rochester is probably a 2 out of 10.

[dave mcbride]

Ummm....Since Buffalo is in dire straits right now, being better than Buffalo isn't much.  Which is exactly what Rochester has, not much.  It's a minor league city that thinks even smaller and is incapable of ever righting itself.  The Fast Ferry being the prime example.  Millions of dollars spent on something that's sole realistic purpose was to transport Rochesterians to someplace else to spend money with no chance of enough Torontonians coming to Rochester to offset the outflux.  And whose idea was this, The City of Rochester whose residents mostly fall under the poverty line and could not afford to utilize the service.  That is the kind of thinking in Rochester.  Rochester's idea for new events is a week long Jazz festival that is both poorly attended and impossible to find. 

 

But your right, if Buffalo is a 1 out of 10, Rochester is probably a 2 out of 10.

708333[/snapback]

 

http://www.democratandchronicle.com/apps/p.../604260315/1001

 

buffalo is definitely doing worse than rochester. more importantly, rochester, because of its history, is better positioned to create jobs in advanced services and high tech. all buffalo has in that regard is banking.

[dave mcbride]

this is pretty fascinating too:

 

http://www.bea.gov/bea/newsrel/MPINewsRelease.htm

[Pyrite Gal]

What services or quaility of services are available from your tax dollars in NY that are not avaiable in most places in the country

708157[/snapback]

 

I misspoke (or is it mistyped) if I said or implied that NYS has services which are not available in MOST places around the county. I do think it is true that there are some services available here which provide greater $ provided than in many places around the country. Further, there are some services available right here in Rtie County which are not available in other municipalities in places like the two examples I just ran into with friends enuring the wilds of WI and NC,

 

More specifically. this is true generally because the cost of these services is so much higher in the NYC market than in other places. One of the benefits of being in WNY is that rules are set for the entire state and thus must go for services in NYC or WNY. In general, the state law finds it really hard to give less $ to one citizen of the state than it gives to another citizen of the state.

 

Programs need to be given to control by the bureaucrats in Albany with authority to vary the payout for specific services based on the cost of services in that area or if they are simply given equal amounts to NYS citizens regardless of the cost of living and services where they live, then it a better deal to get those equalized payments in a cheaper part of the state.

 

Though these differences can be moderated and fine tuned within the state. It is still the case that there is a higher cash payout by NYS government relative to other states be relative to payments from other states.

 

This middle exists for various state payouts to human services welfare payments to corportate welfare payments in subsidies.

 

More specifically, there are programs like the Health Plus program authored by George Pataki which provides services akin to universal health care for single mothers, welfare recipients and seniors in NYS which other states do not have. Another example comes due to our proximity to the Canadian border where through soical welfare payments and acquisition of cheaper Canadian drugs or simply by driving across the border NYS residents get to take advantage of the lack of effective costs controls to get the same drugs manufactered in the US for a cheaper price.

 

A lot of these benefits of these benefits from specific payments by NYS government to its residents are most easily seen in welfare payments where it is widely known that you can get more money and a better deal from NYS than one gets from other states (MS, LA and Ala provide the clearest examples). Its harder to see amd amalyze in the subsudies paid by NYS to stop businesswes from fleeing to the Sunbelt where they have the advantages for businesses of paying non-unionized wages and paying worker benefits, but it makes sense that there has to be a higher payment by NYS to balance of the financial advantages pf moving.

 

If you do not believe that there are higher social welfare payments for NYS to its reidents, just listen to conservatives here who loudly decry NYS for making such large social welfare payments to its residents (and rasing taxes to pay for it) relative to other states.

 

The specific examples from WI and NC which I heard from Buffalo friends who moved there because of the job issue here is actually still in MYS versus other states but is seen in muninipal services.

 

Having moved to Madison, WI (a progressive liberal city judged one of the most livable municipalities in America by several magazines) for his work in computer arts ticket services, he has since left there and taken another computer oriented job which he can do from anywhere. However, his wife completed law schools and got a job in mid-Wis while he was still anchored in Madison so they bought a house in the town of Toma (sp.) guivng each of them a significant commute but one which allowed them to work in two remote towns.

 

One of their complaints about where they live is that their municipality out in the stix does not provide the same yard waste pick-up as is mandated by NYS state la and generally found in urban areas. They actually had to buy a third verhicle, a tuck to haul wastes as their passenger cars were built to haul people. They work for an urbanized area like Erie County but not for the stix. They are now looking to move back to Buffalo as he can do his work from anywhere you can plug in a computer terminal and she is sick of her office and a lawyer can usually find some job amywhere.

 

The NC example was most interesting as the woman of the duo decided to abandon her search here for the teaching job she was trained to do and they went to NC. They were rudely disappointed to find that the problem was not the area but that there were people involved and the political infighting was just as silly in the Sunbelt as here.

 

Being Jewish they tried Shaker Heights, OH, but found that yep there were people there as well and the scholol issues were just as bad. They sold their homes and decided that their kids being less than 5 were more portable than they ever would be (they coul move themselve but still be controlled- they get older and can move themselves even more but parents lose control as they approach older ages).

 

At any rate, they bought an RV and traveled the counry showing their youngsters America while Mom used her teaching training and RV schooled them. This excursion came to an end after a year and it was time to get serious about income as they traveled on inheritance. They decided they wanted to be their own bosses and asked themselves what they knew.

 

Their answer was that after a year of RVing they knew campgrounds. They since have turned the cash used for their home, inheritance and other resources to buy an RV cmpaground which they run together in Amish country.

 

While showing no signs of moving back to Buffalo, they do often lament the lack of basic services in the Amish ciountry and talk wistfully of the good old days with NYS services. However, they do count their blessings as they got used to the same bad schools and lack of services in the Sun Belt.

 

The education and acutally living situation here is WHY is actually defined by individualism. Folks love taking the worst example of Buffalo publicschools and they are true, but fact is that it was a Buffalo HS City Honors which recentlt ranked in the top 10 (#4 I think) of city HS educations in the country using the same measures applied to all schools. Amherst which borders Buffalo traditionally is ranked by crime statistics as the safest municipality in America (there was one odd year when some wacko assassinated a doctor over the abortion issue where it lost iss annual status).

 

The fact is in WNY. one can find what you want if you know what you want and are willing to look for it.

[Buffal0 Bill5]

PA's a blue state too, democratic governor and went against W twice, but I'll bet you money right now that not only does Santorum win this fall, but that he runs for at least VP in 2008.  The religious right (i.e. the entire state except Philly and Pittsburgh) loves him.

708115[/snapback]

He's got my vote. Drop the Vice as far as I'm concerned.

[Sen. John Blutarsky]

He's got my vote.  Drop the Vice as far as I'm concerned.

708606[/snapback]

Well, as long as you are Catholic, white and not gay he's the man for you. If you're anything else he's basically of the opinion that you're going to burn in hell and he's just about said as much.

 

If you're not in the religious right wing of the republican party Rick Santorum is the face of the enemy. He's the kind of Republican/Conservative that make other Republican/Conservatives look bad. He's the Teddy Kennedy of that side of the aisle.

[Sen. John Blutarsky]

I just did a search on Realtor.com for homes in Amherst (which I assume is one of the more affluent Buffalo suburbs) vs. homes where I live in Montgomery County PA (outside Philly).

 

The price difference was not as much as I expected. In both places, you can get a nice 2500 sq ft home for about 300K. Still, you definitely seem to get more in Amherst than where I am--maybe the difference for equivalent homes is 100K.

 

Given the Philly economy--not a powerhouse, but still pretty massive--it's no wonder people would be willing to move here, get maybe 25% less bang for their housing buck, but have a higher salary and more job security. In and around most big cities, if you lose one job, there are often several others to take its place. In Buffalo, you often can't say the same thing.

708225[/snapback]

Check out the taxes though. i did a similar thing when I was house shopping. Ryan Homes built developments in B-Lo and Philly at the same time with the same models of homes, in Chester Co. PA the homes were around 250-300k and in Grand Island NY they were between 150and 200k. The taxes in NY were literally double those of the exact same house on the exact same lot in PA. That's just real estate taxes, not including the additional sales tax in NY, higher wage taxes, etc.

[Alaska Darin]

NYS: Working toward prosperity, one tax hike at a time.

[Benjamin Franklin]

He's got my vote.  Drop the Vice as far as I'm concerned.

708606[/snapback]

 

Rick Santorum is the personification of evil.

[elcrusho]

Ya.  But the YTD taxes witheld was $8000.

 

I love people who report tax returns.

708027[/snapback]

 

Can you see my paycheck or something