So who's next on the rail outta here?

[Orton's Arm]

Good st's players are a dime a dozen.

The Bills had the best overall special teams unit in the league last year. Something tells me we didn't achieve that by embracing the attitude shown in your post. If any team's fans should know the importance of special teams, it should be Bills fans. The point was made for us--albeit very subtly--with plays such as Wide Right and the Music City Miracle.

 

Not that Wide Right was Norwood's fault, but it did illustrate the point that the biggest game of the year can all come down to the kicker. At least, it can when your offense and defense are good enough to put you a special teams play away from winning the big one. TD's teams have been a far cry from that standard. (Sorry about this stream of consciousness, it's late and I'm tired.)

[5 Wide]

Troy Vincent's quickly approaching the same area that Bledsoe reached for me. He is a proven vet with something (not much but something) left in the tank. He is a good guy in the community and says the right things...AND he plays with the emotion of a tree stump. There is no passion in his play, and there doesn't seem to be any genuine pride in his game. I think that it's time to move in a different direction with Vincent and get either Simpson or Baker in there to learn as opposed to having a 35 year old safety playing in what looks to be a non-playoff year.

[Pyrite Gal]

^^^

Lance Schulters is another veteran FS who also had 4 INTs last year and is currently looking for a job. The difference between him and Vincent is that TV doesn't need the $$$, once he gets cut, he can kick back & enjoy life for awhile.

 

Once again: don't read the stats, watch the games.

 

now I shall sing

706440[/snapback]

 

Eureka! I now understand what I was doing wrong all this time this time, I was looking at stats as an indicator when i really should have been listening to people sing 9or at least reading the words) to draw conclusions about this stuff.

 

While I'm sure there are folks who recognize the name (get 'er done Marv) there likely is a reason he still unemployed.

 

Again I am disappointed not to really see any reason sited in terms of his on field performance for why Vincent should be cut. If you want to point to the subjective because for some reason songs are a better indicator than stats, are their specific plays of note last year where TV was repeatedly a problem (or the unemployed Shulters) is a better choice?

[Nanker]

True, but he has access to the same pictures that Chuck Lester does.

AND he shows up for every OTA.

I don't think he is going anywhere.

706484[/snapback]

 

Maybe we could put a picture of Chuck Lester on the TBD Banner.

It's probably the only way we'll get to see the photos!

[MartyBall4Buffalo]

The Bills had the best overall special teams unit in the league last year.  Something tells me we didn't achieve that by embracing the attitude shown in your post.  If any team's fans should know the importance of special teams, it should be Bills fans.  The point was made for us--albeit very subtly--with plays such as Wide Right and the Music City Miracle. 

706602[/snapback]

 

 

I wasn't trying to have a nonchalant attitude about our st's play, so I apologize that it came off that way. I just dont think Aiken hasn't proven enough as a wr to keep him around strictly as a st's player. If he proved more as a wideout I'd have no problem with him staying, and theres probably more deserving candidates, but turnover happens year in and year out, and good st's players can be found elsewhere and the scouting staff have done a relativly good job finding the right players, So I'm confident they can find someone to fill the hole aiken would leave.

[BobbyC81]

Iwould have to agree that this is Fletcher's last year unless Marv thinks he really has a lot in the tank for three more years.

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Plus, there's his attitude with not showing up for the OTAs.

 

C'mon Marv, get rid of all those slackers!! McGahee, Vincent, Villarial, Schobel, Clements!!

[MadBuffaloDisease]

Not that Wide Right was Norwood's fault, but it did illustrate the point that the biggest game of the year can all come down to the kicker.

Actually that play came down to the holder, Frank Reich. He didn't get the laces facing outward, a la "Ace Ventura." Had they been outwards, the ball would have turned back inwards and gone through the uprights.

[Orton's Arm]

I wasn't trying to have a nonchalant attitude about our st's play, so I apologize that it came off that way.  I just dont think Aiken hasn't  proven enough as a wr to keep him around strictly as a st's player.  If he proved more as a wideout I'd have no problem with him staying, and theres probably more deserving candidates, but turnover happens year in and year out, and  good st's players can be found elsewhere and the scouting staff have done a relativly good job finding the right players, So I'm confident they can find someone to fill the hole aiken would leave.

I can live with this for the most part. They'd just need to find a replacement who can do as good a job on special teams as Aiken does.

[Rico]

Troy Vincent's quickly approaching the same area that Bledsoe reached for me.  He is a proven vet with something (not much but something) left in the tank.  He is a good guy in the community and says the right things...AND he plays with the emotion of a tree stump.  There is no passion in his play, and there doesn't seem to be any genuine pride in his game.  I think that it's time to move in a different direction with Vincent and get either Simpson or Baker in there to learn as opposed to having a 35 year old safety playing in what looks to be a non-playoff year.

706608[/snapback]

Well, if you believe the articles we saw when he first signed, he's one of the richest players in the league... supposedly made outstanding investments... definitely doesn't need the money from playing. I think another factor in the lack of passion was having to move to safety. He doesn't like to tackle (not quite as bad as Deion, but similar), and I don't think he likes getting trampled either.

[BADOLBILZ]

Well, if you believe the articles we saw when he first signed, he's one of the richest players in the league... supposedly made outstanding investments... definitely doesn't need the money from playing. I think another factor in the lack of passion was having to move to safety. He doesn't like to tackle (not quite as bad as Deion, but similar), and I don't think he likes getting trampled either.

706656[/snapback]

 

He really is an awful tackler, it's hard to watch. I've seen him purposely slow down or shuffle laterally to allow someone else to jump in and make the tackle. Not a good fit at all for a team that wants to gang tackle with "everyone running to the ball". When he does get near the ball, be it tackling or in pass defense, he has no explosion left in his body. He's sprung. I'm not saying he's a coward, I just think he knows he can't play physical and remain healthy, which makes him a liability against the run if nothing else.

 

And he's a step slow in reacting at safety, something we didn't expect from a guy who was a Pro Bowl CB the season before he came here. We thought we were getting the next Rod Woodson, instead we got a poor man's Mark Kelso(Kelso was much better at taking away the deep ball). He has improved some in that regard. With the exception of the Cleveland game in 2004, his first 10 or so games with the Bills he made Pierson Prioleau look like Ed Reed by comparison. AWFUL. But it's hard to believe any gains he makes with experience at safety won't be offset or outweighed by his declining physical skills.

 

To me, the third strike is his union presence. I don't want a powerful union rep on a team that is going to have to jump thru hoops 24/7 just to be competitive. Successful teams all have lots of players who are willing to throw their bodies around for the team and put in tons of extra work to outperform the competition. Vincent doesn't do that on the field, and whether he is in their ears about it or not, he is not a positive influence, IMO. Give me Rodney Harrison, you can have Troy Vincent.

[Ramius]

If we cut Vincent then we are left with Baker and Simpson. Simpson is a rookie 4th rounder and Marv would never let him start the season. Baker has inexperience and will continue to play special teams and may step into a role in the secondary in a couple of years.

706420[/snapback]

 

Marv is not the coach. He has no say in who starts and who doesnt. thats up to jauron. when marv was coach, he may not have let rooks play, but if jauron determines that simpson is ready to start, then simpson will start.

[keepthefaith]

Iwould have to agree that this is Fletcher's last year unless Marv thinks he really has a lot in the tank for three more years.

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I would agree, but mostly beacause he just hired Drew Rosenhaus as his agent. I thought Fletcher was smart. Not so sure now after he hires an agent of much hype and low respectability. Drew was quoted as saying he has a dood relationship with the Bills organization. Last time I looked he has never signed a Bills player since Marv became GM. I think what he meant is he has yet to piss off the new regime, but with London and Willis as clients he has a nice opportunity to screw that up. London doesn't need Drew to get another team to outbid the Bills for him next year.

[Oneonta Buffalo Fan]

POSEY! POSEY! POSEY!

[BoondckCL]

Marv is not the coach. He has no say in who starts and who doesnt. thats up to jauron. when marv was coach, he may not have let rooks play, but if jauron determines that simpson is ready to start, then simpson will start.

706737[/snapback]

 

Nothing personal, i actually agree with pretty much everything you say, but Marv is going to run this team. He just brought in a pushover so that he will have more power.

 

Don't surprised if you see Marv on the sideline with a clipboard and a headset this season.HAHA

[Dibs]

I would think that TV, Posey & especially Fletcher are all safe.

All three are holdover starters who did not under-perform in anywhere near the same manner that Bennie did.

TV, I would think, will provide immense experience to the younger players around him this year. He might well have lost a step but the guy was awesome in his day & surely knows one or two things the younger guys can learn.

 

Posey, though never the sackmeister he was brought in to be, was not used in a manner conducive to his talents(& he still provided solid play). He might not make big plays but his performance is not typically detrimental to the team.

 

Fletcher going next? Come on. Is anyone really seriously suggesting this? Maybe, & only just maybe, if there was a stud waiting in the wings to replace him but....

 

It is like TD has pervaded this thread.

Why is the next name to go a BIG exciting name?

Surely the next name(s) to go will be either some of the copious number of FAs that were brought in or the 3rd stringers those players replace.(not saying the FAs will be only 3rd string).

 

I haven't looked at trimming to the 53 man roster but my first thought is...

How many receivers do we need/have?

At some point the WRs will have to be cut down.

[Pyrite Gal]

He really is an awful tackler, it's hard to watch.  I've seen him purposely slow down or shuffle laterally to allow someone else to jump in and make the tackle.  Not a good fit at all for a team that wants to gang tackle with "everyone running to the ball".  When he does get near the ball, be it tackling or in pass defense, he has no explosion left in his body.  He's sprung.  I'm not saying he's a coward, I just think he knows he can't play physical and remain healthy, which makes him a liability against the run if nothing else.

 

And he's a step slow in reacting at safety, something we didn't expect from a guy who was a Pro Bowl CB the season before he came here.  We thought we were getting the next Rod Woodson, instead we got a poor man's Mark Kelso(Kelso was much better at taking away the deep ball).  He has improved some in that regard.  With the exception of the Cleveland game in 2004, his first 10 or so games with the Bills he made Pierson Prioleau look like Ed Reed by comparison.  AWFUL.  But it's hard to believe any gains he makes with experience at safety won't be offset or outweighed by his declining physical skills.

 

To me, the third strike is his union presence.  I don't want a powerful union rep on a team that is going to have to jump thru hoops 24/7 just to be competitive.  Successful teams all have lots of players who are willing to throw their bodies around for the team and put in tons of extra work to outperform the competition.  Vincent doesn't do that on the field, and whether he is in their ears about it or not, he is not a positive influence, IMO.  Give me Rodney Harrison, you can have Troy Vincent.

706713[/snapback]

 

1. Maybe my toleramce is higher than yours, I am made of sterner stuff, or simply so not know the game as well as you, but though I cetainly see s healthy Milloy as a far better tackler than a healthy Vincent, I have no trouble watching him play and do not find him awful as a tackler.

 

It is however because I certainly do not rank him high as a tackler but recognize that if he was awarded multiple Pro Bowl berths (by his peers, coaches and fans who vote for Pro Bowl) that he must have been a heck of a cover guy in his prime if he was also such a lousy tackler.

 

Ae any rate, regardless of what folks tend to see which is at least influenced by their preconceived notions, the key thing for the Bills is that we are moving to a Cover 2 scheme from a zine blitz scheme, this means that the FS's primary duty will now be pass coverage rather than playing the line in more of a role which the LB traditionally plays as a run stopper.

 

Yes, the safety must still tackle in a Cover 2 but logically one must view this switch as significant in some way. Don't you?

 

My sense is that TV clearly has more of a ballhawk interest than a take the body interest (Hence him tying for the team lead in both INTs and FRs) and the switch made him a far more likely player for the Bills to keep than Milloy. His being an older player is definitely a negative, but one of the positives that comes with his advanced age is experience as an ability to read plays and routes is going to be central to good FS play in the Cover 2. A post which assesses TV which ignores these points lessens it credibility.

 

2. My recollection of the Bills signing of Vincent was specifically based on the idea that we got him for a relatively small contract (this is reflected in the relatively low cap savings from cutting TV which played a role in the decision to cut Milloy which saved multi-millions for the Bills in cap hit) was that he was given a lower contract because the plan always was on his and the Bills part to move him to safety.

 

I think TV has pretty much met the Bills expectations for what they got for him (and by agreement of all parties what we paid for him. That is to say he is a player who started for us at CB when he arrived, but made the switch to safety as soon as our CB development allowed. This actually happened more quickly than we planned on as TV got hurt and McGee learned the spot in a trial by fire.

 

However, outside of this problem, and the persistent concern for any older athlete (like Milloy last year or Villarial this year) dings that were formerly nicks can become injuries, I think that rather than guessing as you do the Bills expected stupidly to get the Pro Bowl CB Vincent, I think it was fairly clearly stated upon acquisition and by him agreeing to a contract with safety money rather than CB money, this move was always envisioned.

 

Has TV lost a step from his peak? Yeah (maybe two). However, he can still play FS as indicated by him tying for the team lead in both the areas of INTS and FRs and likely even more so as the scheme is switching to his strongest suit.

 

3. I agree that having Rodney Harrison instead of TV would be great. Yet, in the real world this ain't possible. However, I think his union role should have zero impact on the preferences of someone more concerned about what is good for the Bills rather than someone's ideological dislike for unions.

 

If one wants to consider the potential football impact of the Bills cutting this player and leaving any implication this was done due to distaste over his being voted NFLPA Pres by his fellow athletes, the Bills actually run some risks if they give this impression. Should the players feel that the Bills are declaring war on their elected president because of his union activities, I would not be surprised if all things being equal an FA chooses other teams over the Bills.

 

To this point Buffalo is seen as a straight-shooter willing to judge players on their merits on the field and actually FAs like Adams and Spikes (and even TV) chose to come here at deals seemingly below what they could get elswhere. Marv comsulted with TV about the signing of Jauron and I think this sent a positive message to the players and we will get more loyalty and perhaps better play because of it.

 

I was also quite intrigued by the way things went down last year with Moulds. The NFLPA even did things to come to the defense of that idiot TO. Yet, when Moulds was docked a games pay for his tirade against management, nary a peep was heard from his fellow Bills opposing this action.

 

My guess (and it is simply a guess) is that his fellow players (likely in some way agred to by TV as he is NFLPA pres) did not rise to Mould's defense as:

 

1. He threw a little hissy fit not due to him being treated unfairy by management by in fact has helped the team by being a decoy rather than a featured player and actually it was really a sign that Evans (with chemistry with JP) was now athe #1 WR over the aging Moulds.

 

2. There is also the possibility that as his fight was with Tyke Tolbert (obviously popular enough with management that he held his job with a shift in HCs ) and also Tyke like Moulds is an African-American (so there was no race card for Moulds to play if Moulds choose to) there was little ground for supporting any Moulds c;aim anyway.

 

Still i was surprised when the suspension was taken without a discouraging word from the players and that Moulds was so dead certain convinced that he was out of here but the braintrust was still saying positive things about him.

 

I think the issue of TV being NFLPA pres is irrelevant to me in terms of assessing wether he is a good, bad or indifferent player. To the extent that the real world operates differently from my principles though, I think that us outsiders may well be incorrect in assuming that TV is defintiely a negative because of his NFLPA role and that actually, the Bills would run quite a risk if there was any perception that we chopped him because of his NFLPA role.

[Rico]

Excellent post Badol!

  I'm not saying he's a coward, I just think he knows he can't play physical and remain healthy, which makes him a liability against the run if nothing else.

706713[/snapback]

Good take, I think that's a big reason why his tackling is so atrocious now... it doesn't take much for him to get hurt. Too bad he can't still handle CB, I think his glaring deficiencies wouldn't be exposed as much there.

[Pyrite Gal]

Excellent post Badol!

Good take, I think that's a big reason why his tackling is so atrocious now... it doesn't take much for him to get hurt. Too bad he can't still handle CB, I think his glaring deficiencies wouldn't be exposed as much there.

706883[/snapback]

 

I think you are sorta right in that I think what you seem to find troubling and what BADOL has trouble watching is that I think I can see where the tackling issue stems from.

 

TV's final #s has him credited with a number of tackles which i believe were in the low 70s and placed him about 7th in tackles on an unproductive D.

 

However, what I think could use some additional substantiation if it is to be credible is the opinion that he is easily hurt. Sure he is getting older and like Milloy and Villarial what used to nicks he played through could become an injury.

 

However, when you look at the stats (I know that you find song more credible than stats, but I think they while they prove nothing completely in themselves, they certaintly are an indicator which one would have to be fairly football ignorant to either ignore them completely or to accept them as gospel without some consideration). TV actually started 16 games for the Bills last year.

 

He like Milloy got hurt last year and this clearly impacted their ability to wrap up on opponents and to make tackles. However, BADOL is correct in saying that drawing a conclusion of cowardice on his part is incorrect as he clearly played through these injuries and started each game (in fact, if he was so obviously bad as some say it makes a pretty good case for why Baker probably isn;t the guy to rely on to step up if TV were cut because he could not even beat out a player BADOL had trouble watching.

 

A more in depth look at this situation also reveals something interesting.

 

A look at TVs tackle totals per game reveals a story typical of many aging players. He started a lot stronger than he finished. The difference with TV was that his start in the tackling area was quite impressive.

 

He actually was credited with a double digit number of tackles in both the second game against TB andthe 3rd game against AT. The idea that he was such a weenie as a tackler particularly does no make sense when you consider that half his tackles in the AT game were solo tackles where he took the opponent down on his own rather than getting run over and getting credit for an assist because the bottom of the opponent shoe was touching his face mask when another Bill brought him down.

 

His numbers look pretty good until the KC game in mid Novemner where he suffered an injury and missed the second half. There was a marked drop-off in the total tackles credited to him after and prior to this injury. Yet, lest you be too quick to write him off or declare him easily injured, he once again was credited with double digit tackles the next week against SD and join in a solid performance by the team to wrack up double digit numbers against CIN.

 

However, in most of the final games we saw him register only 2 or so tackles several times.

 

My sense of what this points to is:

 

1. If you consider the fact he had a strong start last seson (2 INTs to go with the mere two tackles against Hou, but then being credited with double digit tackles about half of them solo tackles in the AT game there is nothing inherent in his play last year that shows him to be a slacker or weenie.

 

2. He did get hurt (though so did a stud like TKO) last year and it is reasonable to figure age was a factor.

 

3. However, he clearly played through the pain to be credited with double digit tackle #s twice after the injury which knocked him out of a game but which he played through to start the next game. Add on this, that even after his injury and after the Bills season was clearly in the toilet, he made several playmaker plays getting an INTv. CIN he returned 42 yards and several key fumble recoveries and asses defensed thoughout the season. His productivity as ballhawk even after he was hurt makes think that the easily injured tag may be incorrect or at least does not tell the full story.

 

Overall, even if he were to hit the wall suddenly as someines happens with older players and that even the norm; NFL nicks tend to neurtalize the effectiveness of an older player the situation for the Bills looks quite good.

 

He most likely scenario for this playing out strikes me as.

 

A. TV is not cut this year (as I think the thought offered by BADOL and probably you is based on his union duties (as BADOL highlighted) or how much money he has made and has in the banks due to his cagey investments (as you have strangely noted). Neither issue has much whatsoever to do with how well he performs on the field and this will either likely be by far the main thing which determines his fate amd quite likely will be the only thing.

 

B. Again, though age can strike suddenly, given his leading the team in turnovers gotten last year and even late in the season turning one INT into a 42 td. return and his starting all 16 games last year, barring a freak injury (which TKO will tell you happens sometime) he will start a bunch of games and be effective in many of them.

 

C. As an older player though he will get hicked and it will either force him to beh bench let him play less effectively due to the nick. However, if he even gets through half the season with the type of production he showed last year consistenly until gurt and episodically afterwards that will be what we need.

 

1. Whitner will be an immediate starter for us, but supplementing his great physical abilities with TV analysing and counseling him in safety play and coverage techniques and vet tricks should sink in by mid season and if TV is out it will still be mission accomplished in terms of training this rookie to be a vet.

 

2. Likewise we are all high on Ko Simpson as an eventusl stud FS and Yobouty who has 1st round physical talent, but should have stayed in school this year as he has a 3rd round experience and discipling at CB will benefit from having TV as a teacher, example and advisor/ If/when TV goes down if its in the second half of the season, we may end up with current #2 Baker stepping up but Simpson with TV'help may be the next Eric King, a rookie ready to step up by late season.

 

Yet, though I think it is more likely that the question is WHEN rather than IF TV goes down, I think given his productivity cumulatively last year (including some end of the season play like his INT against CIN and him registering double digit tackle numbers) that it actually is more likely he will play all season that he will play so badly he deserves to be cut.

 

so:

 

Most likely- he will play long enough to train his replacements.

Second mot likely- he will play all season productively as the Cover 2 is much morehis game than the zone blitz and requirig him to read plays and pass cover will keep him healthier than requiring him to pinch up and ruin stop as required of safeties in the zone blitz/

Unlikely possibility- He gets hurt grievous;y before game 8.

Really unlikely- he gets cut and we go with Rashard Baker at FS who likely has nzxed out in his ability to develop and who was not even good enough to replace a TV you say sucked.

[BillsCelticsAngelsBama]

You're joking right? I mean i am not saying that it isn't a possibility or a likelihood, but who is going to be McGahee's lead blocker? He can't run through the holes all by himself.

706461[/snapback]

What holes ?

[BUFFALOTONE]

Plus, there's his attitude with not showing up for the OTAs.

 

C'mon Marv, get rid of all those slackers!!  McGahee, Vincent, Villarial, Schobel, Clements!!

706623[/snapback]

 

Get a grip dude.