In defense of the Bills' draft

[Orton's Arm]

Actually there is another way of building a great offensive line, and that is getting the best players available by any means, i.e. using 1st and 2nd day picks and FA. You also don't have to have an all-pro defence to be the Super Bowl champs, just a good o-line that does its job of keeping defender out of the QB's face and opening holes for the RB. Will the Bills have the greatest offensive line of all time next year? no probably not. Will the offensive line be good enough to keep from costing the team games and help out JP? Maybe, no one will know until they actually get to play as a team against another team

In the past, the Bills used second-day picks and second-tier free agents to build their offensive line. These methods achieved significantly below average results. Thus far, Marv has addressed the line with yet more second-day picks, and more second-tier free agents. I hope Marv achieves better results through this method than did TD or Butler. But if I was a betting man, I'd bet that doing the same thing over and over again will get the same mediocre results as before.

 

The two teams which made it to this year's Super Bowl had two of the best offensive lines in the league. Very seldom do you see someone hoist the Lombardi Trophy without a dominant offensive line. You say our line may well be good enough to get you by. But that isn't the kind of line you need to win the Super Bowl. I know there were too many holes to fill them all in one year. But sooner or later, that line needs to be addressed in a serious way.

[Pyrite Gal]

But typically, the offensive linemen who hit free agency are not wanted very badly by their original teams. 

703511[/snapback]

 

I guess Jason Peters should just kill himself since he does not exist in the world you ex[lain which such certainty. Ge was an FA but certainly had no original team to want him badly at all

 

 

I've yet to see a case where an offensive line built primarily through free agency was dominant for any length of time.

 

 

703511[/snapback]

 

Certainly with the added proviso of any lemgth of time it is hard to recall an ezxample. owever, as far as the current Bill OL braintrust is concerned JMac's work with his NYG would seem to have some relevance. I do not know a ton about the history of its other three members. However I do know that its center was former Bill FA Dusty Ziegler and the all important LT posidtion was manned by former Bill FA Glenn Parker.

 

While one can certainly recognize they were not long term, it would simply be silly to claim they never made the SB that one year.

 

My sense would be that if JMac found far better OL play from Fowler over Teague or from Reyes over he 05 Bennie Anderson (which my sense is he will as being better than they were last year is not an extraordinarily high level of play) you will here few complaints from folks whining about long-term strategies.

 

Its the real world (or as close as pro football gets to reality) and the question here is not what is the best theoretical way to do this but given reality how do we get it done.

 

The Bills need to win now because Ralph knows he will not live forever (maybe yiou have an inside source with the Grim Reeper but he does not seem to). Further, this team has missed the playoffs 5 years running and JMac's job in reality is to turn this baby around now.

 

The deal is:

 

LT: Gandy- Jmac assessed right in that he was adequate last year and the plan is to try to develop this relatively young player into being adequate and improving this year. Barring injury potential slight upgrade.

 

LG: JMac missed with the assessment of Anderson. Reywa played good enough RG last year that Carolina was productive with him and his personal play was good enough they never sat him even though they wanted the youngster behind him to step up. In his FA year. though he played well for them they let him go as the youngster was there and already being paid and there was no way they were gonna pay Reues starter money to be on the bench.

 

The Bills plan is to move Reyes from RG to LG and likely will have Anderson still here since we paid him big $ already in bonus money. He took his time looking for a better gig for the same or more $ and did not find it but came here because he should kick Bennie's butt out of a starting job

 

Likely significant upgrade (if only because BA was so inconsistent last year).

 

C: Fowler was well regarded coming out of college and played well from what I here as a sub who started for the Vikes when multiple time Pro Bowler Birk got hurt. Birk is back and judged healthy with upside and ain't going nowhere. They let Fowler walk not because he sucked but because as an episodic starter at C he was an FA who likely will get starter money from the market. Teague actually served the Bills well at times, but this Denver product is undersized for a C and goy bowled over a number of times as he learned the C job when the Bills shifted him from LT.

 

No gurantee that Fowler can be a 16 game stud at center but there is a real potential he can be an in any case is a likely at least slight upgrade over Teague.

 

RG- Villarial will be back and has been a consistent performer for the Bills and even shown a bit of the nastiness you want in an OL leadwe. However, he clearly is on the backside of his career and what used to be nicks he played through have cost him a couple of starts that he did not miss in the past. His sittting OTAs is interesting and somwhat surprising for someone viewed as a leader, but the bigger issue is thatevery practice, game or OTA is another mile or more on his body so I am happy to have sit home and not play except when we need it for a game. Back-up on the OL is probably most critical here and fortunately our most highly regarded youngster Preston filled in for him well last year.

 

Preston is on the depth chart at LG, but my since is that this may be a little mind game to keep him focused on learning multiple positions with the possibility of starting. He ain't gonna beat out CV but will keep a potential starter mentality more competing at LG than at RG. He actually is probably most likely to get fulltime starting duty if Fowler flags as this natural center seems a better candidate than current #2 C Geisinger on the depth chart.

 

At any rate, the same level as before as CV goes til he drops and then Preston fills in.

 

RT- Peters held his own when he took over for MW and this player who is a playmaker at skill positions will have a chance to fulfill the JMac plaudits as the best athlete on the OL he has ever seen, He even potentially could move to LT if he demonstrates he has the RT gig wrapped.

 

Development of this youngster who never played OL consistently until last year points to a significant upgrade pver bust MW.

 

The bottomline in reality is that as far as last year's starting 5 and this year's likely starting 5 we are likely to see upgrades of at least 4 of 5 slots and likely significant upgrade at 2 or 3 slots. This is not simply wishful thinking but is true because MW and BA were so bad last year (feel free to argue they were good if you want but I think it is hard not to agree that the situation can be improved over their play). You can certainly claim their replacements are bad players, buy in order to make this case you have to show Reyes cannot play LG (his team was productive last year and if he stunk Carolina had a prospect they wanted to use but never did) and that Fowler cannot play C (it is unproven whether he can go 16 but I have seen no credible evidence nor heard any credible claims that his play in relief of Birk last year was bad,

 

The key for OL development for the Bills this year in my mind will be whether we will have the back=ups to play if the starters get nicked (I hope none prove as injury prone as Jennings who some folks wanted to give a stuip contract to like SF so that he could sit on our IR as well, One good TD move on OL amidst many disasters was letting him walk).

 

Right now we have 5 likely starters who on the face of it seem to be more talented than the crew JMac trained to an SB for NYG. The question is whether we can find 4 or so quality back-ups as subs and on the PS to fill out this crew,

 

The candidates are:

 

Preston- I think he is in and can fill in when CV goes down or if Fowler does not play at the level his resume and experience says he should (JMac has enough confidence in Fowler he clearly by contract amount and Geisinger on the depth chart as his competition is gonna be the starting center. I think Preston is the more credible chocie for back-up but by putting him on the depth chart at LG where he at least has a small chance of winning the starting job (he would have zero chance of beating out CV or Fowler as they are given the jobs to lose) he will keep the potential starter mentality though I think it is likely Reyes will quickly lock up that job as well.

 

Anderson- The fact he has a good shot at hanging around is mostly testimony to how thin back-up is. If anyone steps up or unless he has gotten religion and is once again good enough to start my guess is he is gone.

 

Gibson- If this big boy ever gets his act together he could really help this OL out a lot as a flipflopping sub for both tackles. Doubtful but we will see.

 

Jerman- I was not impressed but if worse comes to worse JMac will know exactly what he has and does not have in this journeyman.

 

Butler- Probably dropped a couple arounds below his talent level and real character and intelligence due to a nationallt televised cheap shot he made and due to an injury which required surgery. If he rebounds from surgeri he could be a surprise, but if not then it is PS.

 

Pennington- PS or gone,

 

Geisinger, McFarland, Thomas- Gotta show us something or gone.

Morgan et al- camp fodder.

 

Overall, the plan looks quite possible to work as best as I can tell and since the starters are better than JMacs NYG unit, if we get lucky with injuries it will be quite good.

 

Ihe idea of the draft being central to development of an OL under this new CBA in this reality is good theory but not reality.

[Dan]

I hope you are being sarcastic. If not, I see you are one of these "the draft is only 2 rounds long" posters.

703461[/snapback]

 

Sarcasm it was. Well, not the first statement, so much. I did want O-linemen picked in the first. But, I have since come to terms with the picks and have faith that Marv and co. know more about the team than I do.

[mary owen]

Sarcasm it was.  Well, not the first statement, so much.  I did want O-linemen picked in the first. But, I have since come to terms with the picks and have faith that Marv and co. know more about the team than I do.

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and the last 1st round O-line player we drafted worked out so well....

[Scraps]

and the last 1st round O-line player we drafted worked out so well....

703740[/snapback]

 

Therefore we should never draft an Offensive Lineman in the first round?

[colin]

Actually there is another way of building a great offensive line, and that is getting the best players available by any means, i.e. using 1st and 2nd day picks and FA. You also don't have to have an all-pro defence to be the Super Bowl champs, just a good o-line that does its job of keeping defender out of the QB's face and opening holes for the RB. Will the Bills have the greatest offensive line of all time next year? no probably not. Will the offensive line be good enough to keep from costing the team games and help out JP? Maybe, no one will know until they actually get to play as a team against another team

703528[/snapback]

 

i agree with some of the stuff you post, but i think this above post is wrong.

 

we have been wanting for a good O line for so long we now over emphasize it and act like O line = championship, we even have people saying we need a new oline for our 1st round pick QB (who hasn't showed anything and has a MUCH greater likelyhood of being a bust than a solid player).

 

a top D is MUCH more important than a top line. a decent but not great line can help a team win and let solid skill players do well, but a great D is the most important thing.

 

KC and Cincy have great and very solid lines respectively, along with super powered Os to go with it, and crap Ds.

 

our Ds really showed up against them and we spanked them both last year.

 

new england won so many games with a good but not top class line and a super powered D. for years GB had an awesome line and not great D and got thrashed by teams (albeit late in the year or the playoffs, but they beat up on chumps all year and a decent team ripped them).

 

oakland has put more talent and draft picks all over the o line and with their crap D (altho they have a solid D line at times) they aren't going anywhere.

 

the D is still the number one thing in the NFL, followed by QB play, followed by O line, then skill players.

[Scraps]

we have been wanting for a good O line for so long we now over emphasize it and act like O line = championship, we even have people saying we need a new oline for our 1st round pick QB (who hasn't showed anything and has a MUCH greater likelyhood of being a bust than a solid player).

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Who are "we". If by "we" you mean the Bills as an organization, by what measure do you claim the O line is over emphasized? The number of 1st round draft picks over the last decade? Unless I'm mistaken, there were only one of those. The number of high profile free agents the Bills have signed over the last decade? The number of those would be zero.

 

Many of "we" fans are pissed because the Bills as an organization consistently takes a band aid approach to addressing the O line.

[mary owen]

Therefore we should never draft an Offensive Lineman in the first round?

703746[/snapback]

 

 

did I say that? all i'm saying is that it is not as easy as just drafting one early to solve the problem.

[apuszczalowski]

i agree with some of the stuff you post, but i think this above post is wrong.

 

we have been wanting for a good O line for so long we now over emphasize it and act like O line = championship, we even have people saying we need a new oline for our 1st round pick QB (who hasn't showed anything and has a MUCH greater likelyhood of being a bust than a solid player).

 

a top D is MUCH more important than a top line.  a decent but not great line can help a team win and let solid skill players do well, but a great D is the most important thing.

 

KC and Cincy have great and very solid lines respectively, along with super powered Os to go with it, and crap Ds.

 

our Ds really showed up against them and we spanked them both last year.

 

new england won so many games with a good but not top class line and a super powered D.  for years GB had an awesome line and not great D and got thrashed by teams (albeit late in the year or the playoffs, but they beat up on chumps all year and a decent team ripped them).

 

oakland has put more talent and draft picks all over the o line and with their crap D (altho they have a solid D line at times) they aren't going anywhere.

 

the D is still the number one thing in the NFL, followed by QB play, followed by O line, then skill players.

703769[/snapback]

I don't understand how you are disagreeing with what I posted?

 

What I said was we don't have to have the greatest o-line ever created in the NFL to be a contending team, we just need a good one to open holes and give JP some time. I also made reference to the fact that to have a good o-line not every player has to be picked from the first day of the draft, or from just the second day, or just from FA like was mentioned earlier, a mix of the 3 can get you one good line too.

[Orton's Arm]

I guess Jason Peters should just kill himself since he does not exist in the world you ex[lain which such certainty.  . . . Ihe idea of the draft being central to development of an OL under this new CBA in this reality is good theory but not reality.

Jason Peters was an undrafted free agent. It's not like he played several years for some other NFL team that then decided they didn't want him. In that key area, he's different from a normal free agent.

 

In any case, Peters didn't provide nearly the same level of run blocking as Mike Williams did in the second half of 2004. An athletic guy with limited run blocking skills belongs at left tackle. But his very low Wonderlic score raises questions about whether he's smart enough to make the switch. While the deeply flawed Wonderlic can't prove he's not smart enough to be a left tackle, it does raise a concern.

 

Villarrial is another year older. If he can stay healthy, he might improve over what he did last year. But there are real doubts about how much longer his career will last.

 

Before going to the Vikings to be a backup for Birk, Fowler played starting center for some other team (I think the Browns). While he may be an upgrade over what Teague was last year, odds are Fowler won't be at least average for a starting center.

 

Most teams place their worst offensive lineman at RG, which is the position Reyes played for the Panthers. The Panthers were so thrilled with Reyes that they drafted his replacement, and told him he could only return as a backup.

 

Reyes and Fowler are offensive linemen obtained through the TD-like strategy of dumpster diving. Occasionally you can find something of value in those dumpsters, as the Giants did when they obtained the former Bills linemen you mentioned. But usually teams have a good reason for not wanting specific offensive linemen, as the Bills discovered with each and every offensive line free agent TD signed.

 

You say the draft is no longer central to the development of a good offensive line due to the new collective bargaining agreement. I don't see how the new CBA will change things. Revenues and player salaries will go up. Teams will still hold onto their best offensive linemen, leaving mostly second-tier players for the free agent market. The teams that spend the high picks on the line (such as Pittsburgh and Seattle) will still tend to have better lines than the teams that don't (such as the Bills).

[fitnbills]

The problem of the Draft was that Whitner, while a very good player, was taken way too high, causing the Bills to "trade up" for McCargo, who is vastly inferior to Bunkley.  The reach for Whitner and the "trade up" for McCargo looks like the second mistake was to cover for the first.  Rebuilding teams should tend to trade down, not trade up for a Third Round caliber (at best) player in Round 1...

703081[/snapback]

 

 

Agreed totally...

[John from Riverside]

Jason Peters was an undrafted free agent.  It's not like he played several years for some other NFL team that then decided they didn't want him.  In that key area, he's different from a normal free agent.

 

In any case, Peters didn't provide nearly the same level of run blocking as Mike Williams did in the second half of 2004.  An athletic guy with limited run blocking skills belongs at left tackle.  But his very low Wonderlic score raises questions about whether he's smart enough to make the switch.  While the deeply flawed Wonderlic can't prove he's not smart enough to be a left tackle, it does raise a concern.

 

Villarrial is another year older.  If he can stay healthy, he might improve over what he did last year.  But there are real doubts about how much longer his career will last.

 

Before going to the Vikings to be a backup for Birk, Fowler played starting center for some other team (I think the Browns).  While he may be an upgrade over what Teague was last year, odds are Fowler won't be at least average for a starting center.

 

Most teams place their worst offensive lineman at RG, which is the position Reyes played for the Panthers.  The Panthers were so thrilled with Reyes that they drafted his replacement, and told him he could only return as a backup. 

 

Reyes and Fowler are offensive linemen obtained through the TD-like strategy of dumpster diving.  Occasionally you can find something of value in those dumpsters, as the Giants did when they obtained the former Bills linemen you mentioned.  But usually teams have a good reason for not wanting specific offensive linemen, as the Bills discovered with each and every offensive line free agent TD signed.

 

You say the draft is no longer central to the development of a good offensive line due to the new collective bargaining agreement.  I don't see how the new CBA will change things.  Revenues and player salaries will go up.  Teams will still hold onto their best offensive linemen, leaving mostly second-tier players for the free agent market.  The teams that spend the high picks on the line (such as Pittsburgh and Seattle) will still tend to have better lines than the teams that don't (such as the Bills).

703905[/snapback]

 

I dont even know where to begin with the false information in this post...just so that you know I am a little experienced in OL play as I myself am a former college offensive linemen......doesn't make me an expert and you are entitled to your opinion I guess.....

 

- To say that Jason Peters cannot improve on his run blocking and is just an athletic pass blocking OL is ignorant.....the man was a TIGHT END until just recently....and made huge strides in basically just one year (in which he didn't start the whole year) it is a LOT easier to teach an OL to run block then it is to pass block...and I am talking a LOT. Mike Williams SHOULD have been a dominate run blocker he was a 4th overall pick for christ sake....he also should have been a dominate pass blocker at RT as well....a pro bowl guy....he just doesn't have it.....and it showed in his personal life and on the field....Peters on the other hand is a player the bills are trying very hard to lock up long term because the plan is probably going to be for Peters to go to LT......it doesn't mean that he isnt a definate upgrade at RT. We need a QB pocket to take advantage of our downfield speed.

 

- I cannot debate Villy at this point because he did have a down season last year.....but we do have Preston waiting in the wings should he falter. I think we HAVE to give Villy the benefit of the doubt because he was hurt last year and the year before he was one of our best linemen

 

- I disagree with the statement that we cannot look to Fowler to be a capable center....it takes on the average THREE YEARS for a offensive linemen to start playing their best in the NFL (I dont have a diagram or anything...just something I have noticed) and Fowler is still a young player. In my opinion that is why he was brought to Buffalo.....a. he is a young player on the rise and b. He along with Reyes is a local native. They brought in players that WANT to be here and have upside.

 

- It is absolutely NOT true that you put your worst OL on the field at RG.....if you have two starting and one is better then he goes to LG but that does not mean that the other guard sucks....JUST THAT THE OTHER PLAYER WAS BETTER and the LG for the Panthers is a pretty darn good player. Also....while neither you or I know the real reason why they allowed Reyes to leave in free agency.....I do have the luxury of having the Panthers/Bills game on TIVO from this past year.....do you know how many mistakes Reyes made in that game? ONE...one friggen mistake while the OL around him actually made several. In pass protection his assignment was usually AT THE LINE OF SCRIMMAGE till the whistle......and I have looked at it several times......in pass protection I came away impressed....now...he is not a drive blocking road grater for the run.....he is more like the Denver Bronco's OL where they "turn aside" their man to create running lanes......but he absolutely did not embarris himself.

 

- Reyes and Fowler were obtained because the bills waited until the insane free agent spending was done for name players.....the bills did their homework and came away with bargains.....

 

- I personally dont have a problem with the strategy the bills are employeeing.....the drafted their defense and they used free agency for their offense.......perhaps they will turn around and go the other way next year....

[colin]

I don't understand how you are disagreeing with what I posted?

 

What I said was we don't have to have the greatest o-line ever created in the NFL to be a contending team, we just need a good one to open holes and give JP some time. I also made reference to the fact that to have a good o-line not every player has to be picked from the first day of the draft, or from just the second day, or just from FA like was mentioned earlier, a mix of the 3 can get you one good line too.

703850[/snapback]

 

mainly this line

 

"You also don't have to have an all-pro defence to be the Super Bowl champs, just a good o-line that does its job of keeping defender out of the QB's face and opening holes for the RB"

 

did you mean don't need an all pro o line instead of all-pro defence?

 

if so then we agree about the oline part, but the line as quoted made it seem like you are saying we need an oline more than a D

 

 

and when i said we about the desperation for o line i mean the fans

[Orton's Arm]

- I personally dont have a problem with the strategy the bills are employeeing.....the drafted their defense and they used free agency for their offense.......perhaps they will turn around and go the other way next year....

704040[/snapback]

I never said Peters couldn't improve his run blocking skills, just that he wasn't anything special at run blocking last year. Some guys who start off as mediocre run blockers will improve, while many others will stay mediocre. It will be interesting to see which category Peters will end up in.

 

As for Reyes, you have to look at the quality of defensive tackle he was going up against when his team faced the Bills. Just because he looked good when lined up against Tim Anderson-type players, doesn't mean he'll look good when facing guys who can actually play.

 

One thing I'll give Marv credit for: the free agents he's signed tend to be young guys signed for relatively little money. Say that only one guy out of three proves to be above average for a starter. Those success stories could be signed to the team for a long time. There's the chance that Peters will learn to run block, that Fowler's original team gave up on him too early, that Reyes' team also gave up on him too early, and that a guy like Preston or Butler will emerge as a quality starter. Probably at least one of these things will turn out to be true, maybe two. But expecting three or more is a little more optimistic than I'm prepared to be.

 

If Marv didn't have the first day picks to address the offensive line anyway, I don't mind him using free agency and late round picks to create the potential for finding a good player or two. But I really hope he uses first day picks in next year's draft to address whatever holes remain on the line.

[Dibs]

Probably at least one of these things will turn out to be true, maybe two.  But expecting three or more is a little more optimistic than I'm prepared to be.

704234[/snapback]

That sounds like a reasonable expectation to me.

It's funny how the 'doom & gloom' brigade will brand your 'optimism' about 1 or 2 as 'homer glasses' & their expectations of none panning out as 'realistic assessment'.

[John from Riverside]

I never said Peters couldn't improve his run blocking skills, just that he wasn't anything special at run blocking last year.  Some guys who start off as mediocre run blockers will improve, while many others will stay mediocre.  It will be interesting to see which category Peters will end up in.

 

As for Reyes, you have to look at the quality of defensive tackle he was going up against when his team faced the Bills.  Just because he looked good when lined up against Tim Anderson-type players, doesn't mean he'll look good when facing guys who can actually play. 

 

One thing I'll give Marv credit for: the free agents he's signed tend to be young guys signed for relatively little money.  Say that only one guy out of three proves to be above average for a starter.  Those success stories could be signed to the team for a long time.  There's the chance that Peters will learn to run block, that Fowler's original team gave up on him too early, that Reyes' team also gave up on him too early, and that a guy like Preston or Butler will emerge as a quality starter.  Probably at least one of these things will turn out to be true, maybe two.  But expecting three or more is a little more optimistic than I'm prepared to be.

 

If Marv didn't have the first day picks to address the offensive line anyway, I don't mind him using free agency and late round picks to create the potential for finding a good player or two.  But I really hope he uses first day picks in next year's draft to address whatever holes remain on the line.

704234[/snapback]

 

 

I can agree with the fact that that not all of them might now pan out.....but the same would be true had we spend a zillion dollars on name free agents. There are situations every year where "stars" were brought into teams for big money and did not pan out....the last one that comes to my mind was that Colts OG who everybody wanted and ended up not doing well for the team he went to...the name escapes me.

[mary owen]

I can agree with the fact that that not all of them might now pan out.....but the same would be true had we spend a zillion dollars on name free agents.  There are situations every year where "stars" were brought into teams for big money and did not pan out....the last one that comes to my mind was that Colts OG who everybody wanted and ended up not doing well for the team he went to...the name escapes me.

704282[/snapback]

 

 

JfH, that was Rick DeMulling. Another name comes to mind and that's Jonas Jennings. ok, so the jury may still be out on him because he was injured (bum shoulder and a hand injury), but I still think SF overpaid for him. I guess had the Bills given in to his ridiculous demands, we'd be a playoff team right now.

[apuszczalowski]

mainly this line

did you mean don't need an all pro o line instead of all-pro defence?

704189[/snapback]

yes I did, I must have hit the wrong key