assuming the bills "lacked heart" last year

[dave mcbride]

who were the specific players? was it an overall thing?

 

i actually strongly agree with milloy, and felt that by the end of the season the team was in absolute disarray, more so than most bad teams (and that's a damning indictment of donohoe, by the way).

 

i'd put sam adams and mike williams in that category, although i'm not so sure about moulds -- he did actually play hard when he was in there and could--for instance--have had the winning td in a hard-fought carolina game if losman hadn't overthrown him.

 

there were, of course, others. anyone willing to guess who the bad attitude guys were?

 

the reason i ask is that it is slightly disturbing (only slightly at this point, i'll admit) that so many guys have not shown up to OTAs.

[Rico]

I think it was the Meathead more than anything...

 

I also think 2003 was far, far worse as far as players giving up and quitting.

[RuntheDamnBall]

who were the specific players? was it an overall thing?

 

i actually strongly agree with milloy, and felt that by the end of the season the team was in absolute disarray, more so than most bad teams (and that's a damning indictment of donohoe, by the way).

 

i'd put sam adams and mike williams in that category, although i'm not so sure about moulds -- he did actually play hard when he was in there and could--for instance--have had the winning td in a hard-fought carolina game if losman hadn't overthrown him. 

 

there were, of course, others. anyone willing to guess who the bad attitude guys were?

 

the reason i ask is that it is slightly disturbing (only slightly at this point, i'll admit) that so many guys have not shown up to OTAs.

698447[/snapback]

I think you might hint at it here with regard to McGahee. I wonder if, to an extent, that Fiesta Bowl put a scare into him that he might not make it through an NFL career injury-free and, subsequently, lose millions. So, he plays well enough to be well-regarded and make money, but heretofore has not been the kind of guy who leaves it all on the field. I want to say better of him because I think he is sooooo capable. But I want to see more out of him, that's all.

 

JP plays with heart -- maybe too much.

 

The O-linemen, yeah, I'd question their heart. I'd love to see a real fiery, commanding center on this line whipping them into shape and building some cameraderie.

 

Moulds: don't know. His penchant for taking things personally should not be confused for heart, I don't think. In the end, he's a No. 1 receiver "me guy" like many of them. I think he gave a lot for this team, but not all -- and it showed when he didn't go all out for some passes early in the season.

 

I think here in Buffalo we just want to see guys out there giving it their all, hearts on sleeves, playing like nothing else matters. I'm seeing that in the hockey team right now and I hope we see the same in the football team. One reason I am a Losman proponent is, while he needs to keep his emotions in check, he's definitely got the fire, and if he can start producing, that's going to become the kind of thing that's infectious -- I don't see that in Holcomb or in (admittedly little) what I've seen of Nall.

[apuszczalowski]

What? I thought last year was horrible only because JP is a bust and Willis didn't show up for last years optional camps? Not because the Bills didn't have heart

 

THe problem was the team went into the season with high hopes, MM was in way over his head with a young struggling QB some players felt didn't deserve the position and were probably bitter because a fellow vet (bledsoe) was cut for him, and MM lost complete control of his team which snowballed a bunch of other destructive things and led to a very disapointing season

[ganesh]

What? I thought last year was horrible only because JP is a bust and Willis didn't show up for last years optional camps? Not because the Bills didn't have heart

 

THe problem was the team went into the season with high hopes, MM was in way over his head with a young struggling QB some players felt didn't deserve the position and were probably bitter because a fellow vet (bledsoe) was cut for him, and MM lost complete control of his team which snowballed a bunch of other destructive things and led to a very disapointing season

698465[/snapback]

 

What those veteran players missed was that Bledsoe wasn't going to take them any further.....Just looking at the Pittsburgh game showed how much Bledsoe wanted it.....Here was a team on the cusp of a playoff berth and having to battle a 3rd stringer team that had nothin to play for and you are playing in front of your home crowd and this guy came a cropper.....

[John from Riverside]

Mike Williams - this one is a no brainer. Anytime you spend that high of a pick on a player he has to be a difference maker and a leader on your team. Mike was neither and may well be one of the worst busts in NFL history

 

Troy "I cant play unless I am absolutely 100 percent" Vincent.....leaders find ways to get themselves back onto the field when their team is going south.....I grew really tired of listening to the excuses why Vincent was not out there....I dont care if he was a little dinged up.....NFL players play with a certain amount of pain.

 

Eric Moulds....I am not questioning his heart but as far as I am concerned both he AND the bills handled the situation with JP Losman very badly.....Coaches coach and make personnel decisions....not players. Moulds should have sucked it up and supported his young QB instead of being a malcontent in the locker room.

 

Sam Adams....see above

 

We had way to many malcontent "stars" on this team and not enough lunchpail guys. I think that Marv is trying to get away from that mentality with the players he is bringing in...."win as a team lose as a team"

[/dev/null]

I think you might hint at it here with regard to McGahee.  I wonder if, to an extent, that Fiesta Bowl put a scare into him

698463[/snapback]

 

So Willis had no courage

Mike Williams had no heart

Mike Mularkey had no brain

 

And pulling the strings was the Wonderful Wizard of Tom...Pay no attention to that white haired man behind the curtain.

[PIZ]

Moulds, Adams, Clements, McGahee, Williams,

[BUFFALOTONE]

Moulds, Adams, Clements, McGahee, Williams,

698565[/snapback]

 

That about covers it.

[John from Riverside]

Willis is still a mystery to me.....

 

I mean....the guy has obvious talent there is no denying that

 

BUT

 

- They way he goes down almost every game like he as a major injury and then is back 10 minutes later is just a mystery to me...I dont know if I have ever seen a running back do that that way he does

 

- I know that vets dont have to go to these things......but the fact is that our team has been floundering...has fired its GM and Coach....and is searching for its new identity. If Jouran cannot convince our starting RB how important it is to be at all the camp functions if nothing else to show some unity then I dont know what to think.

 

The fact is that this year if Willis pulls those on the field antics like he has in the past (acting like he is severley hurt) he may not get back in the game because we have more then capable backs this year (shawd williams just isn't big enough) to keep Willis on the sidelines.......

[BuckeyeBill]

So Willis had no courage

Mike Williams had no heart

Mike Mularkey had no brain

 

And pulling the strings was the Wonderful Wizard of Tom...Pay no attention to that white haired man behind the curtain.

698558[/snapback]

lol... very nice

[BuffOrange]

IMO the team lacked talent outside of every position save from CB, WR, and RB and that's the primary reason they sucked. Of course McGahee quitting after the 1st Pats game didn't help.

[apuszczalowski]

McGahee quit last season?

 

I thought it was just we were going 3 and out too many time last year so he only had the chance to be on the field for 2 downs every 5 minutes

[MRW]

So Willis had no courage

Mike Williams had no heart

Mike Mularkey had no brain

 

And pulling the strings was the Wonderful Wizard of Tom...Pay no attention to that white haired man behind the curtain.

698558[/snapback]

Who was Dorothy?

[cantankerous]

The fact is that this year if Willis pulls those on the field antics like he has in the past (acting like he is severley hurt) he may not get back in the game because we have more then capable backs this year (shawd williams just isn't big enough) to keep Willis on the sidelines.......

698579[/snapback]

 

 

 

hahahahahaha...yeah...right. And who are these other "more than capable" backs to "keep willis on the sidelines" ? Anthony Thomas? LOL, yeah RIIIGHT! He's not even going to make the team!

 

I do remember him looking like he was severely hurt though, only to come out for a play or two and be right back in there, but why would you call them antics? Maybe he got a bad stinger or felt a pop or something? It's better to get it checked out real quick I think. Maybe he was trying to give the opposing teams some false hope that he wouldn't be back, LOL...I don't know, but that's not a good reason to say we should keep him on the sidelines.

[Rico]

Who was Dorothy?

698741[/snapback]

The Wizard kicked him out of Oz,

he was wearing #11 for the Cowboys.

[Dibs]

Moulds, Adams, Clements, McGahee, Williams,

698565[/snapback]

I think what happened last year cannot be confined to individual players.

In my view it was an overall team effect.

Sure, certain players contributed to the team spirit lacking but so too did the terrible play calling, key injuries & the follow through effect of allowing well respected veterans to leave.

Combine all that with an over-confidence from the previous year & the entire team(virtually) under-performed both as individuals & as a team unit.

[ganesh]

Moulds, Adams, Clements, McGahee, Williams,

698565[/snapback]

 

The entire OL

[Dibs]

Mike Williams - this one is a no brainer.  Anytime you spend that high of a pick on a player he has to be a difference maker and a leader on your team.  Mike was neither and may well be one of the worst busts in NFL history

698542[/snapback]

Agreed...no brainer

The rest.....

Big bust, no worries, but worst bust in NFL history

You've got to be kidding.

It happens all the time to top draft picks(in the top 4)

Just because he is our bust doesn't make him an especially bad bust.

 

To back up my point...

Top 4 picks from 1990-2002

(please excuse if I called someone a bust you like )

I make it at least 27 busts out of 52. It's about 50%.

 

 

1990

Jeff George - bust

Blair Thomas - bust

Cortez Kennedy

Keith McCants - bust

 

1991

Russell Maryland - O.K. but bust for #1

Eric Turner

Bruce Pickens - bust

Mike Croel - bust

 

1992

Steve Emtman - bust

Quentin Coryatt - bust

Sean Gilbert - O.K. but bust for #3

Desmond Howard - bust

 

1993

Drew Bledsoe

Rick Mirer - bust

Garrison Hearst - O.K. but bust for #3

Marvin Jones

 

1994

Dan Wilkinson - bust

Marshall Faulk

Heath Shuler - bust

Willie McGinest

 

1995

Ki-Jana Carter - bust

Tony Boselli

Steve McNair

Michael Westbrook - bust

 

1996

Keyshawn Johnson

Kevin Hardy - bust

Simeon Rice

Jonathan Ogden

 

1997

Orlando Pace

Darrell Russell - bust

Shawn Springs - O.K. but bust for #3

Peter Boulware

 

1998

Peyton Manning

Ryan Leaf - bust

Andre Wadsworth - bust

Charles Woodson

 

1999

Tim Couch - bust

Donovan McNabb

Akili Smith - bust

Edgerrin James

 

2000

Courtney Brown - bust

LaVar Arrington

Chris Samuels

Peter Warrick - bust

 

2001

Michael Vick - bust?

Leonard Davis - bust?

Gerard Warren - bust?

Justin Smith

 

2002

David Carr - ????

Julius Peppers

Joey Harrington - bust

Mike Williams - bust

[Pyrite Gal]

who were the specific players? was it an overall thing?

 

i actually strongly agree with milloy, and felt that by the end of the season the team was in absolute disarray, more so than most bad teams (and that's a damning indictment of donohoe, by the way).

 

i'd put sam adams and mike williams in that category, although i'm not so sure about moulds -- he did actually play hard when he was in there and could--for instance--have had the winning td in a hard-fought carolina game if losman hadn't overthrown him. 

 

there were, of course, others. anyone willing to guess who the bad attitude guys were?

 

the reason i ask is that it is slightly disturbing (only slightly at this point, i'll admit) that so many guys have not shown up to OTAs.

698447[/snapback]

I don't think anyone could rationally look at the end of the Bills last campaign andnot see a team that had lost its heart.

 

The real issue is what do you do to restore that heart. Diagnosing WHY the team lost heart last year is a key to figuring out how to restore it. However, I think that it is crucial to start off by realizing that different players lost heart (however you, Milloy or whoever defines what that means) for different reasons.

 

A key to failure to address this problem unfortunately starts out with recognizing that simplistic buzz phrase answers which are usally the way things get expressed in these internet are not going to cut it.

 

One of the differences between a team and a TEAM is that on a team one fellow who may be the leader (usually until times get tough which they always do if only due to unpredictable injuries or bad bounces by this oddly shaped ball). However, these teams usually run by a legend in his own mine like a Tom Coughlin fall apart into back biting when things get tough.

 

The "Bickering Bills" of the late 80s found in Marv an administrator who somehow found away for a diverse bunch of personalities from me-first Andre Reed, to is their a woman somewhere I can throw a drink in the face of Jim Kelly to god squaders like Frank Reich to me-only personalities like Bruce Smith to all be individuals but somehow work together.

 

The recently incredibly successful NE Pats are somewhat defined by Bill Belicjeck, but many team members loudly and publicly accused him of totally screwing up the Lawyer Milloy negotiations but fortunately for thm a series of early bad injuries and the beating at the hands of the Bills forced them to fall apart or stand together and they did stand.

 

I think one can fairly say that MW, WM, Adams, JP or whomever all lost heart last year. The key is how you encorage several different men on this team to stand up and show their brand of leadership at an appropriate time to the appropriate group. How does Marv or Jauron as team leaders (or Marvron if these two truly work together and are seemingly joined at the hip) diagnose and develop a strategy for each of these men.

 

My sense is that they correctly let a couple of guys go because i see no way that they develop and implement a good strategy to helps these players restore their own hearts for the team (this has got to be done by the individual and cannot be effectively forced from the outside generally). I think MW was such a bruised personality and seemingly a happy go lucky guy I think cutting him lose was the right thing to do, I think Sam Adams is about Sam Adams and he is too far along to be changed so cutting him lose is a good idea.

 

I'm not worried much about WM because he is such a younster and I think can be brought into line by an older player setting the right example. Definitely avoid being impregnated by him unless you want to become a "baby momma" (as he youthfully and disgustinly refers to the mother of children.

 

I assume folks are somewhat pissed at Troy Vincent because he is president of the NFLPA whom folks seem to hate. If folks are upset because he doesn't play enough cause of injury complaints well all he did was tie for team lead in INTs without playing all the time.

 

Particularly given all the young DBs we drafted, and the need for their to be coordinated leadership of the many pivotally placed youth on this teams (Evans.JP,WM, the rookies) being able to work with the older players like Fletcher and Vincent will be key for the front office making this team a TEAM.

 

I doubt that NC gave up on being productive as he had too much money to gain by producing. I would not be sirprised if his problem was pressing too much and looking to make a spectaclar play.

 

On field and of field TEAM leadership will have to work to make sureClements plays within himself I suspect to get maximum production.

 

JP will be fine unless his confiedence is shot by the butffeting he received as he screwed up alot. The tumor his he is a brash fool and I hope so as this type of attitude may well shepard him through the learning phase younsters must fo throug before they become vets.

 

So yep the Bills lacked heart at the end of last season and I think the key is for the braintrust to not lack intelligence and try to improve things with a simplistic one sixe fits all approach.