What was TDs worst move as Bills GM

[beerme1]

At it again huh Nancy?

[BuffaloWings]

At the time, I don't think that hiring GW was such a horrible move. Yes, Fox and Lewis were the "hot" coordinators, but I heard that Lewis had zero interest in Buffalo and there were too many players for Fox to outbid Buffalo. At the very least, TD was the only GM who waited until Fox and Lewis were available after the Superbowl.

 

It was probably an "interesting" choice at the time, since not many people outside of the inner NFL circle knew of GGW. Hindsight says that he's a *good* coach and will probably learn from his Buffalo mistakes and make a good HC when the time comes.

 

I think the worst move (of the given choices) was not signing Pat Williams. He was already an established DT who - with Sam Adams - was great in stopping the run. This was well-known throughout the NFL and TD still let him go. There's one thing to be said for giving the draft picks a chance and saving cap money, but Pat was still young and is still playing well. TD should have forked over the cash and kept him.

[Crap Throwing Monkey]

I had to go with other. I think his biggest mistake was coming to Buffalo to begin with...

[Pyrite Gal]

For me it's most definitinly failing to retain the services of Dick Lebeau.  I dont feel as if Marvin Lewis was some can't miss head coaching choice. He's failed to improve the bengals defense and has been blessed considerably with several high draft picks inlcuding having carson palmer fall right into his lap.  While I like John Fox and the mentality he brings to the panthers I feel as though had we kept Lebeau over Jerry Gray our defense would have still been playing at an extremely high level, and  if necceasary had meathead still failed Lebeau could've been the fallback option, and we would've maybe seen an offense predicated on running the football and strong defensive play.  Lebeau would've been able to do the small things jerry gray couldn't like know when not to blitz, better scheming against better competition and  overall better preperation.

698572[/snapback]

 

Its hard to say because it is unclear what LeBeau would have done in reality. However, one of the things which really muddies the waters in comparing the two is that I think the D performed better under Gray's full control in 2004 than it did under LeBeau's design with Gray's control in 2003.

 

There is a theory that the 04 improvement should be attributed to LeBeau as well as the players just got better as they got used to LeBeau's design. However, the events in real life do not support this theory:

 

A. Gray had sole responsibility for good work done by the Bills D with LeVeau off in Pitts. Specifically, LeBeau had nothing to do with designing a gameplan for 2004 opponents. In virtually every game the D design was good enough to stymie the opponent or at least keep the Bills in the game before Bledsoe fumbled it away. Second, for those games where the D was get beaten with its initial gameplan, Gray showed real skill in designing and implementing adjustments which stymied what the opponent did well (the best example was Sammy Morris runniing for over 80 yards in the first hald of one game, but getting held to less than 100 yards in the total game as the Bills adjusted. LeBeau can not be credited with this good work under Gray.

 

B. It is not like the Bills D improvement was all due to LeBeau and Gray played no role in this in 2003, IMHO it was very impressive how quickly and well Gray mastered the LeBeau zone blitz to do the playcalling. Any claim that the improvement was all about scheme and the playcalling was irrelevant or dictated ignores the fact that part of LeBeau leaving was because he wanted to play call.

 

If the D had slipped from $5 to $10 or so then i think there would be a case to be made about LeBeau leaving killing the Bills, however, its statistical ranking improved amd I think is an indicator of Gray doing good work in 2003 and thwen followed by very good work in 2004, only to se his work suck in 2005.

 

My sense of why the team failed under his guidance in 2005 I think is attributable to Gray not varying the D ebough that year. Having 10 of 11 players back has great advantages, but a big disadvantage in that there is tons of film on the scheme and on the techniques used (and over used) by particular players.

 

There is a powerful desire to dance with the one who brung you and to stick with what works, but the NFL is a league where if you are not improving you are being passed by and the Bills D not vary their approach enough and got passed by big time.

 

In addition, the broaded context which the D operated within was bad and actually quite dysfunctional. MM abd TD had ab aooarebt dusoute about the QB and I think overall they felt that the O situation was going to mostly be a learning experience for JP, As triubled as Bledsoe was and as stupid as it was to extend him, he was even worse to cut him beause even though he provided only a limited chance it was a better chance than going through the JP learning curve.

 

Gray sucking in not changing of the D enough and also the D falling victim to larger issues is IMHO a big reason why we lost last year. However, this fact does not alter the fact that he did a good job learning the LeBeaus design and calling plays effectively with nor the fact he improved the Ds performance after LeBeau left.

[ConradDobler]

  MM abd TD had ab aooarebt dusoute about the QB

698769[/snapback]

 

Uh, could you please clarify this somewhat? It does roll off the tongue a bit akwardly. Did you perhaps mean "QZ abd PWND had ab aooarebt dusoute about the QB"? That makes more sense to me.

[Bill from NYC]

Trading to get Losman, and then cutting Bledsoe before Losman was ready for primetime.

698550[/snapback]

 

Couple this with the selection of Roscoe Parrish, and we are looking at perhaps unexplored heights of arrogance and stupidity.

[Rico]

Lots of bad moves, but only one still worthy of an :fyou,

and that was changing the uniforms.

[Nanker]

Unquestionably it was his attacking the fans and media of Western NY.

He burnt a lot of bridges with that, lost a ton of support and he never recovered from that downward spiral with the fans and media riding his back all the way out of town.

 

Until then he was given a seemingly unending string of mulligans.

At every misstep and miscue we shrugged it off because there was usually another nice marketing shiny spinning thingy he'd hand out. What? WTF! We don't have a number one pick next year? Oooh! Looky THERE! He got us new Unis! Kewel! (gag/choke/gasp).

 

Things degenerated so badly that by the time he brought the Storm Troopers into The Ralph to eliminate dissent in the form of anti-TD signs in the stands, many people would have rather run him over than to drive him to the airport on his last trip out of town.

[ExWNYer]

I voted other. In my book, his biggest failure was not getting this team to the playoffs. Hiring GW instead of hiring John Fox or attracting Marvin Lewis is hindsight. Easy to say now. GW's credentials were just as good as the other two who were also unproven commodities at the head coaching level.

[WhitnerIsAGod]

Having no plan and not knowing that its about what happens on game day, not in the ESPN newsroom.

 

Here's a microcosm of planning ability.

 

In 5 years, the Bills ran the West Coast, the Fling It and Wing It, the Chuck and Duck, the Kordell Stewart Razzle Dazzle, and the Musical Chairs QB systems. Brilliant.

[Bill from NYC]

Having no plan and not knowing that its about what happens on game day, not in the ESPN newsroom.

 

Here's a microcosm of planning ability.

 

In 5 years, the Bills ran the West Coast, the Fling It and Wing It, the Chuck and Duck, the Kordell Stewart Razzle Dazzle, and the Musical Chairs QB systems.  Brilliant.

699038[/snapback]

 

You forgot to list "smashmouth" with no blocking.

[Orton's Arm]

The Original List

- Hiring GW instead of hiring John Fox or attracting Marvin Lewis

- Extending Bledsoe after his horrendous second year.

- NOT trading down in 2002 take Levi Jones and skip but MW (and also semi-bust party animal McKinnie) at tackle

- Hiring MM

- Keeping Jerry Gray rather than LeBeau

- Failing to resign Pat Williams

- Gving in to GW who apparently advoated hiring Kevin Killdrive

 

My Additions

- Letting Antowain Winfield walk

- Cutting Antowain Smith and using a 2nd round pick to replace him

- After going 3-13, TD traded away a first round pick for an aging player (Bledsoe)

- Failure to look for the QB of the future until late in his tenure

- Trading away a first and second round pick to take a step backward at QB, when the defense was built to win either now or never

- Letting Clements' contract expire

- Failure to find any starter-worthy players on the second day of the draft, except McGee

- Too many WRs and RBs taken early on draft day

- Using a second round pick on Josh Reed, when the Bills already had Moulds and Price

- Failure to select players with the right mental traits (toughness, work ethic, passion, etc.)

- Cutting Ross Tucker

- Inadequate attention to offensive line on the first day of the draft

- Failure to extend Jennings after year 2 or 3

- Other stuff that I'm forgetting

[Marv's Neighbor]

Honestly, I can't decide between them all. They all equally sucked.

 

As well as not focusing on the OL.

698479[/snapback]

Exactly! Wheres's the ALL OF THE ABOVE choice?

[Dibs]

The Original List

- Hiring GW instead of hiring John Fox or attracting Marvin Lewis

- Extending Bledsoe after his horrendous second year.

- NOT trading down in 2002 take Levi Jones and skip but MW (and also semi-bust party animal McKinnie) at tackle

- Hiring MM

- Keeping Jerry Gray rather than LeBeau

- Failing to resign Pat Williams

- Gving in to GW who apparently advoated hiring Kevin Killdrive

 

My Additions

- Letting Antowain Winfield walk

- Cutting Antowain Smith and using a 2nd round pick to replace him

- After going 3-13, TD traded away a first round pick for an aging player (Bledsoe)

- Failure to look for the QB of the future until late in his tenure

- Trading away a first and second round pick to take a step backward at QB, when the defense was built to win either now or never

- Letting Clements' contract expire

- Failure to find any starter-worthy players on the second day of the draft, except McGee

- Too many WRs and RBs taken early on draft day

- Using a second round pick on Josh Reed, when the Bills already had Moulds and Price

- Failure to select players with the right mental traits (toughness, work ethic, passion, etc.)

- Cutting Ross Tucker

- Inadequate attention to offensive line on the first day of the draft

- Failure to extend Jennings after year 2 or 3

- Other stuff that I'm forgetting

699204[/snapback]

Surely you can come up with more than that.

Honestly, too much, too easy.

No I can't...Oh O.K., just one then...

Ross Tucker??? 1 game, no starts since leaving.

[Pyrite Gal]

The Original List

- Hiring GW instead of hiring John Fox or attracting Marvin Lewis

-etc.

My Additions

- Letting Antowain Winfield walk

- Cutting Antowain Smith and using a 2nd round pick to replace him

- After going 3-13, TD traded away a first round pick for an aging player (Bledsoe)

- Failure to look for the QB of the future until late in his tenure

- Trading away a first and second round pick to take a step backward at QB, when the defense was built to win either now or never

- Letting Clements' contract expire

- Failure to find any starter-worthy players on the second day of the draft, except McGee

- Too many WRs and RBs taken early on draft day

- Using a second round pick on Josh Reed, when the Bills already had Moulds and Price

- Failure to select players with the right mental traits (toughness, work ethic, passion, etc.)

- Cutting Ross Tucker

- Inadequate attention to offensive line on the first day of the draft

- Failure to extend Jennings after year 2 or 3

- Other stuff that I'm forgetting

699204[/snapback]

 

Many thanks for the specific additions! I must admit that I took less time to make up an initial list of TD failures that I did the list of good TD episodes in a companion post as I did not have a bunch of time left and I figured that the throng would provide details easily which you finally did.

 

I definitely feel that TD deserved to be canned when he was (if not sooner becaise the handwriting was on the wall that GW was a mistake pretty early (even though I thought his reliance on tomfoolery like his airhorn was silly and said so on TSW at the time. I still felt that we Bills fans owed him the benefit of the doubt, but I think I was on record calling for GWs ouster (or at least massive supplementation) even after the team improved to 8-8 becayse he clearly was in over his head).

 

However, the extreme world of the internet clearly was different than the nuanced wotld of pro football as I think a football based assessment of TD shows he deserved to be canned in the bih picture but a detailed assessment of the episodes shows some good (and even great like his handling of tagging PP moves( but also some real clinkers as my poll list gets a start on and your additional details adds to.

 

I think even your list is a mixed true and false analysis of what really happened.

 

Specifically:

 

- Letting Antowain Winfield walk- So long ago it seems even I do not remember the specifics. Yet I agree in general as I thin A-Train got a bad rap from fans he did not deserve for his play, though the specific of his contract which I do not remember could have mandate he be cut as we were paying for Butler's bad move of allocating over $10 million to the QB position, and overpaying folks like John Fina.

 

A-Train was still a productive player on the field and he showed with the pivotal role he played as a cog in the SB winning Pats teams. Not his biggest error and perhaps one we were contractually forced into, but he was a player who did not deserve to be cut based on his play on the field.

 

- Cutting Antowain Smith and using a 2nd round pick to replace him

I assume you mean Henry and i thought he was more than an adequate replacement for A-Yrain

 

- After going 3-13, TD traded away a first round pick for an aging player (Bledsoe)

 

Rather than being a failure in concept ir even execution, I thought this was actually a great move by TD for a year and due to a horrendous second year by Bledsoe I thought he should have been cut then and we could call it a wash. Particularly as I am fairly certain that our loss of a 1st played a key role in TD holding out for a replacement 1st from AT (which then became WM) I think this was a wash. It clearly was a great move as we desperately needed a replacement for RJ when the Flutie/RJ devacle came to an end.

 

Our FA choices looked like the oft-injured Chris Chandler and eternal back-up Jeff Blake. Pulling off a trade for Bledsoe really was great for the business and excitment about the Bills after a 3-13 season as was evidenced by the Welcome Drew event at the Ralph which drew at least 10K in the midst of the off-season.

 

However, even in addition to the business benefits, the real measure is on the field and it is hard for me to imagine a QB performing much better than the 2002 Bledsoe. The team record improved from 3-13 to 8-8, the second biggest improvement in NFL history and got an deserved a Pro Bowl reserve nod (if you dusagree fine but name the AFC QBs who deserved the sub role more?) Even those who want to claim that Belicheck and NE fleecing the Bills for two guaranteed victories shows that they took the Bills in this trade are forgetting the fact that NE which won an SB in 2001 actually missed the playoffs in 2002 and it was payin off the accelerated cap hit for traading Bledsoe to keep Brady (moving on was clearly the correct thing to do in the big picture by trading Bledsoe due to the accelerated cap hit killed them for a year.

 

Ectending Bledsoe was a stupid TD error, but getting him was a good move IMHO.

 

- Failure to look for the QB of the future until late in his tenure

 

This is correct, though I'm not sure who this woulda/coulda/shoulda QV would have been.

 

- Trading away a first and second round pick to take a step backward at QB, when the defense was built to win either now or never

 

Actually, trading a second for the JP was not a bad move given we had not gotten a QB of the future earlier as you noted. It really was little more than trading a seond and a later pick because in return for the 2005 first rounder given up we got a 2004 1st round choice in return. Particularly given that the first QB taken in that draft was #18 pick Rodgers moving the pick to 2004 was a smart move. JP clearly has shown he needed the training IF he ever works out.

 

Again, what was stupid was once he made the bad choice of extending Bledsoe, he made it even worse by cutting him (and getting his accelerated cap hit) and handing the job to JP (even JP went on record saying it was the wrong way to get the job. Bledsoe was an inadequate QB, but he was better than a JP who had never started a pro game before. I think the team felt that TD had changed 2005 into a pre-season for JP when as you said the D (with better attitude than their cashing it in because TD had cashed it in) was about as good as they were gonna get. Bledsoe was bad but better than JP and the team semmed to sense this and gave uo like their leader/GM had.

 

- Letting Clements' contract expire

 

We'll see, because certainly the way it is set up now we likely have the replacement on the roster and the Bills can still extend NCs cintract from their current position of great leverage. Even if they do not, then they get NC playing hard in a contract year for him. I thinks its simply to early to draw conclusions about this because it may work out better than if we extended him after last season coming off a Pro Bowl year than if we extend him now and potentially even if we let him walk and go with McHee-Youbouty/Greer/King as our starting two and nickel. Simply too early to draw conclusions on this one.

 

- Failure to find any starter-worthy players on the second day of the draft, except McGee

 

 

- Too many WRs and RBs taken early on draft day

- Using a second round pick on Josh Reed, when the Bills already had Moulds and Price

- Failure to select players with the right mental traits (toughness, work ethic, passion, etc.)

- Cutting Ross Tucker

- Inadequate attention to offensive line on the first day of the draft

- Failure to extend Jennings after year 2 or 3

[Pyrite Gal]

 

- Failure to find any starter-worthy players on the second day of the draft, except McGee

- Too many WRs and RBs taken early on draft day

- Using a second round pick on Josh Reed, when the Bills already had Moulds and Price

- Failure to select players with the right mental traits (toughness, work ethic, passion, etc.)

- Cutting Ross Tucker

- Inadequate attention to offensive line on the first day of the draft

- Failure to extend Jennings after year 2 or 3

699235[/snapback]

 

Whoops accidentally cut this off before finishing:

 

1. No seconf day starters.

 

I agree

 

2. Too many WRs etc.

 

Not an episode but a general trend so no comment as I think this is an observation and would love to see the objective favtual support for this observation.

 

3. Pick of Reed.

 

Again a very good move that worked well its first year, stunk when Reed developed case of the droppsies his second year (though the reasonable thought that he could step up after a productive rookie year made it possible to tag Price), then injury made Reed unproductive his third year, though he showed enough his fourth year to be resigned,

 

As he was extended and we are apparently going to a Rams like passing game with multiple WRs the jury is still out on this one as well.

 

4. Mental traits

 

This general comment elicits little more than the fact-free opinion we fans are entitled to and i would love to see specifics.

 

5. Ross Tucker-

 

I will leave this laugher of a complaint to the commentary in a piost above.

 

6. Inadequate attention in draft

 

MW demonstrates that the problem was not inadequate focus but poorly chose focus. I prefer us havin taken Clements, McGahee, Evans, a try for a QB of the future and Whitner to the OL players available anyway. Who specifically did you want with your 1st rounder)

 

7. Jenning-

 

Not extending the injury prone Jennings was actually one of TDs better moves. He never played a full season for the Bills and actually missed parts of 1/4 of our games his last season (his two missed starts and going out early in the previous games with a concusiion, leg sprain , upper body boo-boo or one of the plethora on injuries he suffered with the Bills.

 

Not only would have cost the Bills something like market rate huge conract SF paid him last year to end up quickly on IR, but you end up also having to pay the cap hit mandated by a Marcus Price or whomever is going to fill in for him. Again, the Bills problem was not a lack of attention to the OL (this was one of two positions where TD got a roster player (or two) each draft year but the problem was not lack of attention but poor assessment and training bu Vinkt and Ruel.

 

Thanks for the additions (the ones which made sense) and keep 'em coming I hope.

[Orton's Arm]

Surely you can come up with more than that. 

Honestly, too much, too easy.

No I can't...Oh O.K., just one then...

Ross Tucker??? 1 game, no starts since leaving.

699227[/snapback]

It's a little harder to break into the Patriots' starting offensive line, than it is to start on TD's line. Tucker was a solid starter in 2004, and he was making peanuts. TD should have placed him on injured reserve for 2005. If he comes back in 2006, we'd never have to hear the words "Bennie Anderson" and "starter" again in the same sentence. If he doesn't, all you've lost is a tiny amount of salary cap space. Considering how difficult it was for TD to find quality offensive linemen, he should have been a little less cavalier in getting rid of the ones he did find.

[finknottle]

Wow! This is a really tough one! I had to pick 'other' because IMO no one bad move really stuck out, and none were indefensible.

 

Instead, I have to put it down to overall arrogance. His tenure was marked by his constantly trying to show the rest of the NFL that he was smarter than they. But like a chronic gambler, whenever he was right initially he wound up losing it all by doubling up. Think the Bledsoe extension.

 

But to me the move that really shows his arrogance - and I'll be flamed for this - is the drafting of WM. Using your first round pick on a player who is guaranteed to be injured at least the first year, 20% of his contract; all the while drawing a first rounder paycheck out of your cap; and when you have a guy coming off a 1,300 yard season who plays for chump money. A guy who is a running back, so it's not like he will give you 10 years even if he works out. A guy who may not recover to what he was in college. I don't care if he is a top 10 back - I don't even care if he is a top 3 back, which he is not - you add it up and it is a dumb move, both capwise and personnel-wise. But with TD, it was all about showing the NFL that he was smarter than the other GM's and would gamble on WM's recovery when everybody else was afraid to draft him.

[Orton's Arm]

- Letting Antowain Winfield walk

So long ago it seems even I do not remember the specifics.

 

Apparently not, as you seem to confuse Antowain Winfield with Antowain Smith. Antowain Winfield was an excellent CB taken by Butler in the first round. He hit free agency after (IIRC) five years with the Bills. This young, Pro Bowl-level CB became the most sought-after free agent defensive back that year. The Jets and Vikings were both deeply interested in him. Even if TD didn't have the salary cap space to give Winfield what he wanted, he at least could have slapped the franchise tag on him, and then have made those two teams use draft picks to bid against each other. Instead he got nothing for Winfield.

 

- Cutting Antowain Smith and using a 2nd round pick to replace him

I assume you mean Henry and i thought he was more than an adequate replacement for A-Yrain

Henry was a good between-the-tackles runner for the few years he lasted. But cutting the young Antowain Smith created an artificial need at RB when the team had enough holes already. As for the salary cap mess, the way you're supposed to deal with that is by getting rid of the highly paid old guys--not by cutting young players with bright futures ahead of them such as Antowain Smith.

 

- After going 3-13, TD traded away a first round pick for an aging player (Bledsoe)

 

Rather than being a failure in concept ir even execution, I thought this was actually a great move by TD for a year and due to a horrendous second year by Bledsoe I thought he should have been cut then and we could call it a wash. 

In other words, you'd be willing to trade away a first round pick for one good year of QB play. Trading away first round picks for one-and-done type players makes sense if you're on the verge of a Super Bowl. But the Bills had gone 3-13.

Particularly as I am fairly certain that our loss of a 1st played a key role in TD holding out for a replacement 1st from AT (which then became WM) I think this was a wash.  It clearly was a great move as we desperately needed a replacement for RJ when the Flutie/RJ devacle came to an end.

If ever there was a time to start looking for your quarterback of the future, it would be when your team has come off a 3-13 season, and has just cut RJ. Rookie QBs take a while to develop, so it's best to get the process started as early as possible. Not only did the Bills lose a first round pick through the Bledsoe acquisition, they incurred a two year delay in the search for the QB of the future.

The team record improved from 3-13 to 8-8, the second biggest improvement in NFL history

Next year's 6-10 record showed this was just a flash in the pan.

- Trading away a first and second round pick to take a step backward at QB, when the defense was built to win either now or never

 

Actually, trading a second for the JP was not a bad move given we had not gotten a QB of the future earlier as you noted. 

Because the defense was built to win now or never, it didn't make sense to invest so many resources into the QB of the future. The Bills could have addressed the QB of the future issue by taking Matt Schaub in the 3rd round, while using the Losman picks on the offensive line or the defense.

[Orton's Arm]

2. Too many WRs etc.

 

Not an episode but a general trend so no comment as I think this is an observation and would love to see the objective favtual support for this observation.

Thanks for throwing me such an easy pitch! During his time with the Bills, TD spent three first day picks on WRs--more than he spent on the offensive line. He also used two first-day picks on RBs--the same number as were spent on the line. Now count the starters--there's one RB, two to three WRs, and five offensive linemen. So there ought to be a 5:1 ratio of linemen to RBs taken, and a 5:2 or 5:3 ratio of linemen to WRs taken. Remember that TD started off with Moulds, Price, and Antowain Smith--but no offensive linemen except an aging Brown--and you'll see TD's priorities weren't in order.

3. Pick of Reed.

Again a very good move that worked well its first year

Halfway through the 2002 season, the lack of an interior offensive line was already beginning to take a devastating toll on the Bills' offense. My point wasn't about the merits or demerits of Josh Reed. It was that instead of using that 2nd round pick on a slot receiver, it could have been used on the interior OL.

4. Mental traits

This general comment elicits little more than the fact-free opinion we fans are entitled to and i would love to see specifics.

Do you see any evidence at all for the opposite view? Were TD's draft choices collectively known for squeezing every last drop of performance from whatever athletic talent they'd been given? The Bills had entirely too many Mike Williams-style players--guys who had worlds of potential but lacked passion for the game.