Second day offensive line picks

[KurtGodel77]

From 1990 - 2004, the Bills chose the following offensive linemen on the second day of the draft:

 

Brent Griffith

Tony DeLorenzo

Dean Kirkland

Mike Devlin

Corbin Lacina

Chris Luneberg

Tom Nutten

Dusty Zeigler

Jamie Nails

Marcus Spriggs

Victor Allotey

Marques Sullivan

Mike Pucillo

Ben Sobieski

Dylan McFarland

 

This track record doesn't exactly inspire me with hope for the more recent additions. Meanwhile, look at the offensive linemen the Bills drafted on the first day from 1990 - 2004:

 

Glenn Parker

John Fina

Corey Louchiey

Ruben Brown

Robert Hicks

Jonas Jennings

Mike Williams

 

While many offensive linemen chosen on the first day were busts, many others worked out well. On the other hand, the Bills are 0-for-15 on the second day of the draft. 0-for-15! So don't tell me the offensive line is being "addressed" just because one or two second day picks were used on it. Show me first day picks, and then I'll say the offensive line is getting its due.

[Dibs]

I don't think it's been as bad as all that.

Several of those guys were fairly good but had injuries limiting their careers.

Most seemed to be late bloomers...i.e. we got rid of them & they went on to start for other teams.

Tom Nutten played in the SB for the winning Rams side if I remember correctly.

Zeigler & Lacina ended up starting 80 games each.

Nails started over 50 then injury finished him.

 

I think what it shows mainly is that we have not been very good at developing the talent.

Hopefully this new regime will be able to recognize & develop the talent better than past regimes.

[Lori]

Yes and no, Dibs. You're correct about Nutten owning a Rams SB ring, and Dusty Z. played in a Super Bowl as well (XXXV, NY Giants).

 

(Should've hung onto Nutten, eh?)

 

But even I draw a blank on names like DeLorenzo and Luneberg, and from what I've seen from NFLEurope this spring, Dylan MacF. isn't exactly dominating the league. And don't even get me started about Captain Inactive, Victor Allotey...

[Dibs]

So don't tell me the offensive line is being "addressed" just because one or two second day picks were used on it.  Show me first day picks, and then I'll say the offensive line is getting its due.

694448[/snapback]

I don't follow your logic. Not all starters for all teams are 1st day picks. At a guess I'd say more(most) were 2nd day picks. On top of the second day picks we had, we also brought in several free agents.

I would love us to end up with 5 pro-bowl OLs but that concept is just plain silly.

2 pro-bowlers & 3 solid starters is more reasonable but...

at this point, 5 solid starters would do me fine.

Peters-solid

Villarial-solid(if uninjured)

Fowler-solid

Reyes-solid

Gandy-solid(though some disagree)

Plenty of raw, young talent learning in the background.

 

Motivation in a team sport is usually a vastly underated factor.

Let's see what the new regime can get out of these players.

[Dibs]

Yes and no, Dibs. You're correct about Nutten owning a Rams SB ring, and Dusty Z. played in a Super Bowl as well (XXXV, NY Giants).

 

(Should've hung onto Nutten, eh?)

 

But even I draw a blank on names like DeLorenzo and Luneberg, and from what I've seen from NFLEurope this spring, Dylan MacF. isn't exactly dominating the  league. And don't even get me started about Captain Inactive, Victor Allotey...

694455[/snapback]

Yeah but...that list is all of the 2nd day picks we have had. Surely we should reasonably assume that at least half(of 2nd day picks) will be total busts. Who remembers a 7th round nobody?

I wasn't saying we have done well, I was just pointing out it was better than the 0-for-15! stated.

[Lori]

Technically, the 0-for-15 isn't quite correct, but it's not THAT far off (if you only count their time here -- an important qualifier). I'll agree with another part of your statement, though:

I think what it shows mainly is that we have not been very good at developing the talent. 

Hopefully this new regime will be able to recognize & develop the talent better than past regimes.

694454[/snapback]

I think we were spoiled by earlier success finding late-round/FA linemen (11th-rounder House Ballard comes to mind), although a complete Day 2 draft list from the playoff/Super Bowl run would also contain its share of mutts...

[Pyrite Gal]

I agree that the guys we chose for the OL on the second day have at best been a horrible disappointment (as had the record produced by the 1st day picks a well.

 

However, there are actually several different accusations which are made against the Bills generally and also against TD specifically and the factoids you provde actually go a bit of the way in supporting some of these allegations but also in undercutting some of these allegations as false or unreasonable/ Hor example:

 

1. TD is accused of neglecting the OL and focusing elsewhere (specificslly skill players).

 

Based on the names you provide this certainly does not appear to be the case at least in comparison to past Bills efforts.

 

TD oversaw 4 of the drafts of the 15 you site (a bit over 26%). Yet OL is one of two positions from which he chose a player in each draft he oversaw. Of these a hair over 26% of the second day OL picks and actually 2 of the 7 (a hair over 28%) of the first day OL picks were om TDs watch.

 

Perhaps an accusation that TD under-emphasized the OL as Butler did for over 10 years would be valid, but it simply does not match the figures to claim there was some sudden TD neglect of the OL compared to 15 years of Bills activities.

 

I think it is far more legit to claim that he chose players not worthy of resigning (MW and Jennings) than to claim he neglected this area.

 

If someone wants to make the claim that TD (or the Bills braintrust in general as their record of draft focus on OL is the same or worse than his) then they would need to make a showing that the Bills attention to drafting OL players trailed the league badly as a whole. Folks can pick out an example of one team's line-up as a contrast to the Bills, but this cherry picking does not substantiate the point that Bills draft focus was different than that of most teams.

 

2. We picked a lot of not very good players on the OL-

 

The list of nsmes is actually quite remarkable as beyond Ruben there really are not any "franchise" players here who really held down their spot and qualified even somewhat regularly for the Pro Bowl. Yet, this points out the import of the MW choice being a bad one and them not developing a late drafter player into a reliable starter as if this had happened even once the final numeric output (and likely the anecdotes told about this would change radicially.

 

3. Alot more research is needed to substantiate a lot of these claims-

 

They focus upon the draft which is one important area of team building and OL building, but as the case of Jason Peters, a starter who was a UDFA, Chris Villarial shows as a starter who was an FA, and even the attempt to pluck whathis name from Baltimore's PS who started briefly for the Bills at LG in place of failed draft picks like Pacillo and Sullivan, the draft is only part of the story in terms of OL and team building.

 

This strikes me as a good effort and a real contribution to the duscussion, but these factoids merely add more questions than answer questions about out OL issues.

[Fewell733]

You forgot to list Duke Preston as a second day pick. He seems like he could be pretty solid.

[Orton's Arm]

1. TD is accused of neglecting the OL and focusing elsewhere (specificslly skill players).

 

Based on the names you provide this certainly does not appear to be the case at least in comparison to past Bills efforts.

Let's look at the results of these past Bills efforts. The Bills' offensive line in 1997 had the following players:

 

Ethan Albright

Ruben Brown

Bill Conaty

John Fina

Corbin Lacina

Corey Louchiey

Jamie Nails

Jerry Ostroski

Mike Rockwood

Marcus Spriggs

Dusty Zeigler

 

If you're comparing TD to this, you're setting the bar awfully low.

 

But at least the Bills' lines of the 1990s had more continuity than they did under TD. The starting line in 2004 had the following guys: Jennings, Tucker, Teague, Villarrial, and Mike Williams. The only guy left from that list is Villarrial.

[Rico]

But at least the Bills' lines of the 1990s had more continuity than they did under TD.  The starting line in 2004 had the following guys: Jennings, Tucker, Teague, Villarrial, and Mike Williams.  The only guy left from that list is Villarrial.

694703[/snapback]

Well, it had to be done, the other 4 were all part of that disgraceful 2003 O... the only one of those losers still on the team 3 years later is Josh Reed.

[John from Riverside]

Hmmm....I am not knocking your post at all just an observation....

 

Your 2nd day list is much longer....leaving much more room for blown picks....while even on the 1st day list:

 

Mike Williams was a HUGE blown pick

Corey Louchey was another bust

Robert Hicks....good for one year then bust

(Christ...thats nearly half the list right there)

[Orton's Arm]

Well, it had to be done, the other 4 were all part of that disgraceful 2003 O... the only one of those losers still on the team 3 years later is Josh Reed.

You're right about the 2003 offense being gutted:

QB: Bledsoe. Gone.

LT: Jennings. Gone.

LG: don't remember/doesn't matter. Gone.

C: Teague. Gone.

RG: Villarrial. Still here.

RT: Mike Williams. Gone.

TE: Mark Campbell. Gone.

RB: Travis Henry. Gone.

WR: Eric Moulds. Gone.

WR: Bobby Shaw. Gone.

WR: Josh Reed. Still here.

 

So much for TD building any kind of continuity on offense. Meanwhile, teams like the Colts are able to retain guys like Peyton Manning and Marvin Harrison for very long periods of time. That's why their offenses produce while ours doesn't.

[Rico]

You're right about the 2003 offense being gutted:

QB: Bledsoe.  Gone.

LT: Jennings.  Gone.

LG: don't remember/doesn't matter.  Gone.

C: Teague.  Gone.

RG: Villarrial.  Still here.

RT: Mike Williams.  Gone.

TE: Mark Campbell.  Gone.

RB: Travis Henry.  Gone.

WR: Eric Moulds.  Gone.

WR: Bobby Shaw.  Gone.

WR: Josh Reed.  Still here.

 

So much for TD building any kind of continuity on offense.  Meanwhile, teams like the Colts are able to retain guys like Peyton Manning and Marvin Harrison for very long periods of time.  That's why their offenses produce while ours doesn't.

694749[/snapback]

Villarial signed with the team in 2004... LG in 03 was Ruben, RG was Pucillo.

 

And one of TD's biggest mistakes was not gutting them out sooner after that most sorriest of performances. For instance, there's no way Bledsoe & Teague should've been re-signed in '04.

[Rico]

Hmmm....I am not knocking your post at all just an observation....

 

Your 2nd day list is much longer....leaving much more room for blown picks....while even on the 1st day list:

 

Mike Williams was a HUGE blown pick

Corey Louchey was another bust

Robert Hicks....good for one year then bust

(Christ...thats nearly half the list right there)

694743[/snapback]

At least Louichey and Hicks left pretty quick... Fina sucked for many years...

to me, that's almost worse..

[Lori]

LG: don't remember/doesn't matter.  Gone.

Are eight-time Pro Bowl linemen really that easy to forget? Nothing personal, but as far as I'm concerned, your credibility just took a hit.

[bills_fan]

I think we were spoiled by earlier success finding late-round/FA linemen (11th-rounder House Ballard comes to mind), although a complete Day 2 draft list from the playoff/Super Bowl run would also contain its share of mutts...

 

True, but you'd think the whole blind squirrel theory would at least produce one decent OL, during his time with the Bills. Although, you could argue that they were Nutten and Ziegler and we gave up too early.

[Lori]

True, but you'd think the whole blind squirrel theory would at least produce one decent OL, during his time with the Bills.  Although, you could argue that they were Nutten and Ziegler and we gave up too early.

694790[/snapback]

How could they cut Nutten after one season, yet keep Allotey around until his rookie contract ran out?

 

20/20 hindsight with regards to Nutten, sure, but Captain Inactive was nothing more than a punchline for his entire stay in Buffalo...

[BillsCelticsAngelsBama]

Are eight-time Pro Bowl linemen really that easy to forget? Nothing personal, but as far as I'm concerned, your credibility just took a hit.

694784[/snapback]

Credibility ? LOL

[Lori]

Credibility ? LOL

694797[/snapback]

I've tried to steer clear of the anti-Losman crusade, but this reminded me of one of the GR hosts a couple of years ago -- the day Jim Ritcher was announced as the next Wall of Fame inductee, he had to admit he didn't really have an opinion on the selection because he'd never seen Ritcher play.

 

I keep that in mind whenever I listen to him talk about any Bills history-related topic now... just as I'll file this one for future reference.

[Orton's Arm]

Are eight-time Pro Bowl linemen really that easy to forget? Nothing personal, but as far as I'm concerned, your credibility just took a hit.

694784[/snapback]

For some reason, I thought Brown had been "replaced" with Villarrial before the 2003 season. It, ahem, turns out this happened prior to the start of the 2004 season.

 

It looks like can't remember/doesn't matter was playing RG in 2003, not LG.