My bouquet for Doug....

[Buftex]

Sorry, this is something I posted about a year ago...given todays' developments, Doug Flutie retiring at all, I thought it might be appropriate to drudge up the past, jsut this once...the original forum was "Travis and Doug...why all the hate"

 

 

 

 

 

"WHY I DO NOT LIKE DOUG FLUTIE"

 

I never liked Flutie, even before he was a Buffalo Bill. His ego was legendary before he ever donned the red, white and blue. There are a number of other reasons as well. He was one of a handful of NFL players that broke the players picket in 1987 (Gary Hogeboom, and Lawrence Taylor are the only other two that come to mind, though I am sure there were a few more) during the NFL players strike. I know we are living in a very anti-union atmosphere right now, but growing up in WNY, and having a very pro-union family, that was pretty bad. And, I remember Flutie, during those strike games, saying something to the effect of "I just want the opportunity to show that I can play in this leauge". My reaction, knowing what I know now about him, should have been," what self centered assh**e!" It didn't help that I couldn't stand him before that either.

 

I remember cringing when there was a very vocal core of Bills fans (in 1985 there weren't many, so all were heard) who were obsessed with the Bills taking Flutie with the #1 pick in the draft that year. Thankfully, smarter heads prevailed, and Bruce Smith was selected instead...

 

In 1998, when AJ Smith decided to lure Flutie back to the NFL (beind the support of crap talent NFL talent evaluater Mike Ditka), I nearly crapped my pants...surely, I thought, they cannot be friggin' serious! I was relieved, a month or two later, when they traded for Rob Johnson! Hey, hindsight is 20-20!

 

So, Flutie plays for the Bills. I love that team, more than I could hate any one player. I really wanted to let bygones be bygones, and let some of the bitterness toward the guy go. It didn't take long though, for it to come back, full throttle...

 

It was in the aftermath of what was maybe Flutie's most memorable play as a Buffalo Bill. It was that end around run, to win that game against the Jaguars. It was a great play, I will hand it to the man. It was just the classlessness that he displayed afterwards, that cemented my dislike for him.

 

In the press conference after the game, Flutie the toast of Buffalo, drops the bombshell that the particular play was designed as a hand off to Thurman Thomas, but that Thurman ran the wrong way, missed his block, so "I had no other choice but to take matter into my own hands, and win the game!" It was not just embarassing a proud teammate who had given his blood for that team, if you look at the replay, it likely wasn't true. It is very apparent, whatever play was called, Flutie had planned on running it in himself, to bask in the glory and adulation, the split second that ball was snapped. I have heard rumour (I can only substantiate by saying that I have a very good friend, whose sister has worked in the Bills front office for nearly 15 years- I know, we hate those kind of rumours) that it did not sit well with a number of players on the team. Even if it were true, Flutie already had the spotlight, he didn't need to show up Thurman. There were similar rumours and innuendos that there was a lot of carrying on about Andre Reed, to the coaches, that led to his being less and less a part of the offense.

 

 

The final reason I have for disliking Flutie, is rooted in the final game of the 1998 season, in New Orleans. By that time, Flutie was entrenched as the Bills starting QB, and Flutie mania was at its' peak. The Bills had already sewn up a wild-card birth, and had nothing to gain or lose that depended on the outcome of the game. Wade Phillips had decided to let Rob Johnson start the game, as he had been nicked and injured a good part of the season (who knew it would become an old familiar tune!). It was known on Saturday that RJ was the starter. On game day, having had more than 24 hours (hell it may have been the whole week) to let it sink in, Flutie sulked on the sidelines like the selfish jerk he was.

 

My buddy and I moved from our seats, down to some empty seats behind the Bills bench. Doug Flutie spent the entire game, about 15 to 20 yards down field, away from his teammates, sitting on his helmet, sulking like a high-school girl. RJ had one of his finest games as a Bill, and was pretty much perfect that day. At one point, after a long TD pass, RJ came running off the field to high-five his "mentor" (the animosity between the two was only starting to burn). What did the mentor do? He literally looked the other way. You could see it was killing him that Johnson was having a great game. Throughout the game, players would trot down the field to acknowledge Flutie. He just stared ahead...he was very visably pissed off. In fact, throughtout the game, the only players he acknowledged were Thurman Thomas and Bruce Smith.

 

As the game became a ruanway (okay, the Saints did make a late rally) and players were getting loose and celebrating on the sidelines, Flutie just pouted. Bruce Smith, usually characterizied as being not really fan friendly, was slapping hands, signing aoutogrpahs, and high fiving the fans along the side. It was Christmas weekend, the team seemed truly jazzed about going to Miami to face the Dolphins the next week in the wild card game. One kid wanted a box of Flutie flakes signed. He kept yelling out "Doug, Doug, Doug". Flutie wouldn't acknowledge any fans. Granted, at that moment, he was one of the most popular players in the NFL, but not even then? Finally, Bruce Smith took the box from the kid, walked it down to Flutie, and he signed it.

 

I have been to lots of Bills games over the years. I don't think I ever witnessed a more self absorbed player as Flutie was that day. I pulled for Flutie as long as he was our QB, but I must say, he is the one player in my near 30 years of obsessing over the team, that I had to begrudingly pull for. I would never deny that he had a knack for finding ways to make plays, and the fact that he made things interesting. I just never liked him as a guy, particularly on my favorite team. The only thing that could compare for me, being a huge Celtics fan, was I never really liked Danny Ainge. But, as far as I know, other than being whinny, he was always a team first player. I am not sure one could say that about Flutie. He may have finally grown up in San Diego, but I could care less about him now...unless of course he starts a game against us, for the Patriots...

 

Travis Henry you ask? I like 'em. His only crime, as far as I am concerned, is that he is not as good as Willis McGahee...

 

Giving Fake Fat Skinny a run for his money- buftex!

[RuntheDamnBall]

Interesting take, buftex. Yours realizes some feelings I had, but I could only find a few choice instances during the RJ-DF squabble to point to. I think people underestimate the effect that DF-as-new-leader-and-media-darling had on some Bills that, as buftex says, had given their hearts and souls for this team. Wade ran some great defenses but could not and did not manage that situation well at all. DF only exacerbated the situation.

[Dawgg]

I find this somewhat laughable.

 

Flutie presided over somewhat of a Renaissance for the Bills. He put the team back on the map, there was plenty of media attention and most importantly, he made plays when it mattered. He didn't turn the ball over and drove defensive coordinators nuts.

 

As for his attitude problems, I really couldn't care less -- his record as a starter speaks for itself.

 

And finally, there was once upon a time a player on the Bills who was fairly pomous and not so nice to his teammates -- his name was Jim Kelly.

 

I'd take Flutie and his winning percentage over most of the trash we have seen on this team over the past few years.

 

Sorry, this is something I posted about a year ago...given todays' developments, Doug Flutie retiring at all, I thought it might be appropriate to drudge up the past, jsut this once...the original forum was "Travis and Doug...why all the hate"

"WHY I DO NOT LIKE DOUG FLUTIE"

 

I never liked Flutie, even before he was a Buffalo Bill. His ego was legendary before he ever donned the red, white and blue. There are a number of other reasons as well. He was one of a handful of NFL players that broke the players picket in 1987 (Gary Hogeboom, and Lawrence Taylor are the only other two that come to mind, though I am sure there were a few more) during the NFL players strike. I know we are living in a very anti-union atmosphere right now, but growing up in WNY, and having a very pro-union family, that was pretty bad. And, I remember Flutie, during those strike games, saying something to the effect of "I just want the opportunity to show that I can play in this leauge". My reaction, knowing what I know now about him, should have been," what self centered assh**e!" It didn't help that I couldn't stand him before that either.

 

I remember cringing when there was a very vocal core of Bills fans (in 1985 there weren't many, so all were heard) who were obsessed with the Bills taking Flutie with the #1 pick in the draft that year. Thankfully, smarter heads prevailed, and Bruce Smith was selected instead...

 

In 1998, when AJ Smith decided to lure Flutie back to the NFL (beind the support of crap talent NFL talent evaluater Mike Ditka), I nearly crapped my pants...surely, I thought, they cannot be friggin' serious! I was relieved, a month or two later, when they traded for Rob Johnson! Hey, hindsight is 20-20!

 

So, Flutie plays for the Bills. I love that team, more than I could hate any one player. I really wanted to let bygones be bygones, and let some of the bitterness toward the guy go. It didn't take long though, for it to come back, full throttle...

 

It was in the aftermath of what was maybe Flutie's most memorable play as a Buffalo Bill. It was that end around run, to win that game against the Jaguars. It was a great play, I will hand it to the man. It was just the classlessness that he displayed afterwards, that cemented my dislike for him.

 

In the press conference after the game, Flutie the toast of Buffalo, drops the bombshell that the particular play was designed as a hand off to Thurman Thomas, but that Thurman ran the wrong way, missed his block, so "I had no other choice but to take matter into my own hands, and win the game!" It was not just embarassing a proud teammate who had given his blood for that team, if you look at the replay, it likely wasn't true. It is very apparent, whatever play was called, Flutie had planned on running it in himself, to bask in the glory and adulation, the split second that ball was snapped. I have heard rumour (I can only substantiate by saying that I have a very good friend, whose sister has worked in the Bills front office for nearly 15 years- I know, we hate those kind of rumours) that it did not sit well with a number of players on the team. Even if it were true, Flutie already had the spotlight, he didn't need to show up Thurman. There were similar rumours and innuendos that there was a lot of carrying on about Andre Reed, to the coaches, that led to his being less and less a part of the offense.

The final reason I have for disliking Flutie, is rooted in the final game of the 1998 season, in New Orleans. By that time, Flutie was entrenched as the Bills starting QB, and Flutie mania was at its' peak. The Bills had already sewn up a wild-card birth, and had nothing to gain or lose that depended on the outcome of the game. Wade Phillips had decided to let Rob Johnson start the game, as he had been nicked and injured a good part of the season (who knew it would become an old familiar tune!). It was known on Saturday that RJ was the starter. On game day, having had more than 24 hours (hell it may have been the whole week) to let it sink in, Flutie sulked on the sidelines like the selfish jerk he was.

 

My buddy and I moved from our seats, down to some empty seats behind the Bills bench. Doug Flutie spent the entire game, about 15 to 20 yards down field, away from his teammates, sitting on his helmet, sulking like a high-school girl. RJ had one of his finest games as a Bill, and was pretty much perfect that day. At one point, after a long TD pass, RJ came running off the field to high-five his "mentor" (the animosity between the two was only starting to burn). What did the mentor do? He literally looked the other way. You could see it was killing him that Johnson was having a great game. Throughout the game, players would trot down the field to acknowledge Flutie. He just stared ahead...he was very visably pissed off. In fact, throughtout the game, the only players he acknowledged were Thurman Thomas and Bruce Smith.

 

As the game became a ruanway (okay, the Saints did make a late rally) and players were getting loose and celebrating on the sidelines, Flutie just pouted. Bruce Smith, usually characterizied as being not really fan friendly, was slapping hands, signing aoutogrpahs, and high fiving the fans along the side. It was Christmas weekend, the team seemed truly jazzed about going to Miami to face the Dolphins the next week in the wild card game. One kid wanted a box of Flutie flakes signed. He kept yelling out "Doug, Doug, Doug". Flutie wouldn't acknowledge any fans. Granted, at that moment, he was one of the most popular players in the NFL, but not even then? Finally, Bruce Smith took the box from the kid, walked it down to Flutie, and he signed it.

 

I have been to lots of Bills games over the years. I don't think I ever witnessed a more self absorbed player as Flutie was that day. I pulled for Flutie as long as he was our QB, but I must say, he is the one player in my near 30 years of obsessing over the team, that I had to begrudingly pull for. I would never deny that he had a knack for finding ways to make plays, and the fact that he made things interesting. I just never liked him as a guy, particularly on my favorite team. The only thing that could compare for me, being a huge Celtics fan, was I never really liked Danny Ainge. But, as far as I know, other than being whinny, he was always a team first player. I am not sure one could say that about Flutie. He may have finally grown up in San Diego, but I could care less about him now...unless of course he starts a game against us, for the Patriots...

 

Travis Henry you ask? I like 'em. His only crime, as far as I am concerned, is that he is not as good as Willis McGahee...

 

Giving Fake Fat Skinny a run for his money- buftex!

691852[/snapback]

[RuntheDamnBall]

I find this somewhat laughable.

 

Flutie presided over somewhat of a Renaissance for the Bills. He put the team back on the map, there was plenty of media attention and most importantly, he made plays when it mattered.  He didn't turn the ball over and drove defensive coordinators nuts.

 

As for his attitude problems, I really couldn't care less -- his record as a starter speaks for itself.

 

And finally, there was once upon a time a player on the Bills who was fairly pomous and not so nice to his teammates -- his name was Jim Kelly.

 

I'd take Flutie and his winning percentage over most of the trash we have seen on this team over the past few years.

691863[/snapback]

A Rennaissance for those of low standards. For others he was a limelighter who was part of the decline.

[Dawgg]

Haha YES, 2 consecutive playoff seasons IS a renaissance when compared to what we have seen of late.

 

But I suppose your high standards are just fine with seasons averaging 6 wins over the past 5 years.

 

A Rennaissance for those of low standards.  For others he was a limelighter who was part of the decline.

691867[/snapback]

[C.Biscuit97]

I find this somewhat laughable.

 

Flutie presided over somewhat of a Renaissance for the Bills. He put the team back on the map, there was plenty of media attention and most importantly, he made plays when it mattered.  He didn't turn the ball over and drove defensive coordinators nuts.

 

As for his attitude problems, I really couldn't care less -- his record as a starter speaks for itself.

 

And finally, there was once upon a time a player on the Bills who was fairly pomous and not so nice to his teammates -- his name was Jim Kelly.

 

I'd take Flutie and his winning percentage over most of the trash we have seen on this team over the past few years.

691863[/snapback]

 

This is how I feel 100%. You certainly make some good points buftex, but Dawgg's example of Kelly is a good one. Kelly was one of the main causes of the bickering Bills, called out teammates in the media (Ballard and Reed), had a very bad reputation as a partier, and wasn't known as the most fan-friendly guy. However, he helped win a lot of ballgames for us and eventually matured into an all-round good guy. I just don't understand why Flutie never got the same respect after one of the worst back stabbing in sports history.

[Buftex]

This is how I feel 100%.  You certainly make some good points buftex, but Dawgg's example of Kelly is a good one.  Kelly was one of the main causes of the bickering Bills, called out teammates in the media (Ballard and Reed), had a very bad reputation as a partier, and wasn't known as the most fan-friendly guy.  However, he helped win a lot of ballgames for us and eventually matured into an all-round good guy.  I just don't understand why Flutie never got the same respect after one of the worst back stabbing in sports history. 

691870[/snapback]

 

 

See my original post?

 

The point is Flutie never matured, at least not until after his Buffalo days....also, recall, prior to the "worst back stabbing....", the Bills were winning games in spite of Flutie, not because of him...I am not saying I would have benched him when they did, in fact I might have done it sooner. We didn't yet know how hopeless Rob Johnson would be, and other than getting injured every outing, he had looked promising, up to that point. I would dare say, like some say of Holcombs' starting last season, the Flutie experiment just held the team back from getting better.

 

Also remember, the Bills team that Kelly took over, was made up of young players and rookies. Talley, Reed and Bruce were still relatively unknown commodities. Guys like Shane Conlan, Cornelius Bennett, Thurman, and James Lofton etc etc all came afterwards. Kelly was about 23 or 24 when he came to Buffalo (the equivalant of 16 in jock years), Flutie was supposed to be a mature, seasoned vetran. He wasn't...

 

Kelly was the key piece in the re-building of a very poor team. He was the "franchise player". Flutie was stepping into a situation with a team with a very good vetran defense, and plenty of vetran leadership on offense. They really didn't need a little show-off attention whore...with an agenda to prove to everyone how maligned he was. They just needed a QB.

 

I will always give Flutie the respect that he was fun to watch at times, and the Bills won more than they lost with him, but did anyone ever really get the feeling that Flutie was going to lead the Bills anywhere? I never did...eventually smoke and mirrors get figured out. I remember, at the height of Flutie-mania, seeing the Bills at the Meadowlands. For every nifty 20 yard scramble that netted 5 yards that he made, he seemed completely blind to open receivers down field.

[Dawgg]

Rob Johnson looked promising??? What games were you watching? He was absolutely lost out there and looked like a deer in headlights under center. Certainly, Flutie played on a team with plenty of veteran leadership and a great defense -- which is why he fit the team perfectly. We didn't need some pretty boy QB who couldn't get it done (like RJ). The team needed a QB who would make plays when needed and not turn the ball over. For the most part, Flutie did his part.

 

But most importantly, he made going to games fun. He made being a Bills fan a lot more fun.

 

Was he a QB to build around for many years to come? Of course not, the dude was old. But I'll take him for what he was... and what he was was a bright spot in the post-Kelly years. I'll take him anyday over the stiffs that have manned the position since Kelly left.

 

Flutie was stepping into a situation with a team with a very good defense, and plenty of vetran leadership.  They really didn't need a little show-off attention whore...with an agenda to prove to everyone how maligned he was. They just needed a QB.

691909[/snapback]

[Buftex]

Rob Johnson looked promising??? What games were you watching?  He was absolutely lost out there and looked like a deer in headlights under center.  Certainly, Flutie played on a team with plenty of veteran leadership and a great defense -- which is why he fit the team perfectly.  We didn't need some pretty boy QB who couldn't get it done (like RJ).  The team needed a QB who would make plays when needed and not turn the ball over.  For the most part, Flutie did his part.

 

691920[/snapback]

 

 

I believe you are JP Losman fan, no? If so, put RJ's first 8 performances up against Losmans' this year...other than his knack for getting "injured" (again, not using hindsight, just speaking in terms of the time of the events), they are not even close. Apparently you are forgetting that Johnson, in between getting sacked, moved the Bills offense fairly effectively at times, early on in his Buffalo career. He appeared to have enough talent to build on. He just could not stay healthy, and once Flutie-fanatics got a taste of the mullet, there was no turning back.

[The Jokeman]

Rob Johnson looked promising??? What games were you watching?  He was absolutely lost out there and looked like a deer in headlights under center.  Certainly, Flutie played on a team with plenty of veteran leadership and a great defense -- which is why he fit the team perfectly.  We didn't need some pretty boy QB who couldn't get it done (like RJ).  The team needed a QB who would make plays when needed and not turn the ball over.  For the most part, Flutie did his part.

 

But most importantly, he made going to games fun.  He made being a Bills fan a lot more fun.

 

Was he a QB to build around for many years to come?  Of course not, the dude was old. But I'll take him for what he was... and what he was was a bright spot in the post-Kelly years.  I'll take him anyday over the stiffs that have manned the position since Kelly left.

691920[/snapback]

This is what irks me so much. Too many fans forget what RJ was doing prior to Doug's memorable scramble against Jacksonville. RJ did lead us to a win over the then undefeated 49ers. He also had an outstanding game against the Rams that was only lost in part because of a defensive collapse and that Doug couldn't run out the clock when he took over late in the game when RJ got hurt.

 

Incase you want to relive these games checkout a review of the Rams game with stats from Bills Backers.com and a review of the 49ers game from the same site.

 

I will admit that I was/am a Flutie Hater and remain to be one to this day. As like buftex hated before he even came here and even went so far to c-create a website entitled Flutie Haters after he was first signed to be a Bill. As Doug Flutie was nothing more than an average NFL at best who thought he was better then he ever was. While RJ never proved to be a better QB than Doug I feel had we let him return as starter back in 1998 and 1999 he might have developed into one barring his inability to stay healthy (this is my only criticism of RJ) . As to me any inexperienced QB can only learn on the field of play during the regular season/and or playoffs and is the same reason I want JP Losman to get another chance to this year even if it means struggling though another 6-10 season but being ever so positive I think we could reach 8-8.

[MadBuffaloDisease]

What kind of "Renaissance" did Flutie lead in San Diego? Kind of hard to do it without a great defense and some good offensive talent around you.

 

And the Bills' "Renaissance" was during the 49'ers game (game 3 of 1998), which was led by RJ. Hell if not for getting injured in the Rams game the week before and watching Flutie salt-away the win, THAT would have been the "Renaissance" game.

 

What rubbed me the wrong way initially about Flutie was him refusing to even buy season tix (I think they cost about $200 back then) when the whole push to keep the Bills in Buffalo was going on, because as he said "he had no ties to the area." Chump. Meanwhile RJ bought a $1M luxury box.

[Buftex]

  Kelly was one of the main causes of the bickering Bills, called out teammates in the media (Ballard and Reed), had a very bad reputation as a partier, and wasn't known as the most fan-friendly guy. 

 

691870[/snapback]

 

Hmmm...a lot of this is true, except maybe the part about Kelly not being "fan-friendly". I came in contact with him numerous times during his playing career, and he was nothing but cool with fans. When I had season tickets, we used to go to the players parking lot after games, to get autographs. Win or lose, Kelly always signed for kids...not always for adults. His families Winnebego used to be surrounded by fans...I used to see him out at bars a lot too. He loved the attention of the fans, especially the ones with big ta-ta's!

[RuntheDamnBall]

Haha YES, 2 consecutive playoff seasons IS a renaissance when compared to what we have seen of late.

 

But I suppose your high standards are just fine with seasons averaging 6 wins over the past 5 years.

691869[/snapback]

Different. I ain't calling this a renaissance. I'm calling it a refusal to understand the concept of rebuilding.

[Buftex]

This is what irks me so much. Too many fans forget what RJ was doing prior to Doug's memorable scramble against Jacksonville.

691934[/snapback]

 

 

Yes, they are using 20/20 hindsight. Its' as if people took RJ's side in the "Flutie Vs Johnson" debate, solely because he was "so cute, and had great hair!"

Flutiemania indeed!

[Mark Long Beach]

It's interesting to read just how much emotion can still rise to the surface after all these years. Even though it has no real relivance now.

 

For my part, I loathed RJ from the start. I have little doubts that DF was an a**, but regardless, I really enjoyed watching the games when he was QB. Especially when compared with uninspired, stiff, brittle RJ.

 

Boy was that QB controversy divisive. Now I'm all riled up again!

 

Good riddance (to both), although I sure wish we had a QB we could believe in again.

[Buftex]

 

Good riddance (to both), although I sure wish we had a QB we could believe in again.

691989[/snapback]

 

 

Amen brother, amen....

[ConradDobler]

My problem (won't call it "hate" - that's reserved for Miami/NE) with Flutie was his effect on our OL. Offensive lines thrive on discipline. With him running around back there, play call be damned, they really couldn't block as a unit, because Flutie just improvised. I think some of the problems RJ had were due to this lack of OL cohesiveness caused by playing in front of Flutie. Besides, he was too short. In order to throw 20 - 30+ yards, he had to get the ball way, WAY up in the air, which let the DBs close on the target before the ball arrived.

[Buftex]

Besides, he was too short. In order to throw 20 - 30+ yards, he had to get the ball way, WAY up in the air, which let the DBs close on the target before the ball arrived.

691999[/snapback]

 

 

In little man Tates' defense, he really didn't turn the ball over very often...what I admired most about his game was how careful he was with the ball.

[RJ (not THAT RJ)]

In little man Tates' defense, he really didn't turn the ball over very often...what I admired most about his game was how careful he was with the ball.

692034[/snapback]

 

 

Except when he was in the red zone and the field got short. He threw quite a few end zone interceptions.... and the Miami playoff game..,,,, *shudders at the memory*

[apuszczalowski]

I think I might be the only Canadian that can't stand Flutie. I never really like and never thought he was as good as they portrayed him. I'm not disapointed to see him retire. Good riddence, go play in your band somewhere far away from here