Call for examples of Losman's "attitude"

[Orton's Arm]

Ah, but isnt it ironic that in essence you have answered your own question as far as what the Bills success would have been with those picks. Your signature re Donahoe's 2nd round picks give a snapshot of the overall 'success' of his drafting.

 

And THAT, not Losman alone or Losman for the most part, is what proved to be his undoing (not to mention the bad coaching picks but we'll leave that for another thread).

I'm not exactly lobbying Canton to have TD enshrined into the Hall of Fame. I completely agree that, had he been given extra picks, he probably would have squandered them on offensive skill position players, players where the team was already strong, busts, marginal backups, or guys who would have been allowed to hit free agency after just four or five years. TD was more than just a successful Losman pick away from being a worthy Bills GM.

 

That said, he sure didn't help his situation by spending all those picks on Losman.

[Pyrite Gal]

Ah, but isnt it ironic that in essence you have answered your own question as far as what the Bills success would have been with those picks. Your signature re Donahoe's 2nd round picks give a snapshot of the overall 'success' of his drafting.

 

And THAT, not Losman alone or Losman for the most part, is what proved to be his undoing (not to mention the bad coaching picks but we'll leave that for another thread).

692667[/snapback]

 

Actually you should start with TD's bad coaching pick of GW rather than choosing Fox (which few saw how productive he would be) or working hard to attract Marvin Lewis to come here (many suspected how productive he would be, and though I think his choice to pick an HC is was more sure woould not run him out oftown like Cowher did (or if his hired HC did turn on him, make sure he could beat him) then we'd be talking about a different level of Bills success.

 

TD did follow in the footsteps of Butler and Ralph in badly managing and putting too much focus on the need to find the next Jim Kelly at QB. However, his draft record like everyone else's had its misses, and the pick of MW turned out to be a huge failure. However, the idea that draft mismangement was TDs prime weakness overestimates the import of the draft

 

The draft is an important tool because good players have to come from somewhere and good players get drafted. However weighing against this general truth for an individual team is that actually in any and every given year the draft represents about 8/53rds of the roster and is simply a small part of a team in a given year. Even more notable is that it really is likely only the 2 or so of the 1st day selections who will start and contribute to the team in the year they are picked and maybe 1 or 2 players taken on the 2nd day.

 

Yhe draft is tremendously entertaining, but for reasons that have as much to do with why the NY Lotto is popular and the tremendous advertising job done by ESPN coverage and the resulting industry of draft guru publications. The emergence of fantasy football hsd also hyped this tool far beyond its pivotal nature in team building. Its an important tool, nut far from the only or the most important tool in team building.

 

TD had his MW misses and the 2002 draft is singular in players not working out in the long run. However, TD actually pulled off some nice hits as well that seemingly are not acknowledged by those who claim he was a total draft failure and actually he did his best work by trading away his 1st round pick tp address immediate needs )the Bledsoe move was great initially as he got a Pro Bowl reserve QB in 2002 for nothing given that year and then played the market well to re=establish a prescence in the 1st round. He again used that pick correctly for team building by getting WM who was a great value on draft value boards prior to his injury and then sitting him for a year so he could recover.

 

I doubt if TD had the picks he traded for JP it would have made not much difference at all in 2005 as most of those picks would have been bench warmers all season anyway.

[Coach Tuesday]

However, the idea that draft mismangement was TDs prime weakness overestimates the import of the draft

692747[/snapback]

 

I gotta disagree with you there, although we're wayyyy off-topic. The draft is HUGE in the modern NFL. It's not just "8/53" of your roster. For one, you get these players cheaper than FAs, for 4-6 years. This is critical - you have the opportunity to get potentially great players at bargain prices. Second, you are able to develop the character and style of your football team from the ground up, something that every type of business organization needs to be able to do. Donahoe's mismanagement of the draft was an ENORMOUS part of the problem with this franchise during his tenure, and it's left us where we are today - with a roster full of holes and devoid of character.

[Nanker]

I gotta disagree with you there, although we're wayyyy off-topic.  The draft is HUGE in the modern NFL.  It's not just "8/53" of your roster.  For one, you get these players cheaper than FAs, for 4-6 years.  This is critical - you have the opportunity to get potentially great players at bargain prices.  Second, you are able to develop the character and style of your football team from the ground up, something that every type of business organization needs to be able to do.  Donahoe's mismanagement of the draft was an ENORMOUS part of the problem with this franchise during his tenure, and it's left us where we are today - with a roster full of holes and devoid of character.

692783[/snapback]

 

Not to mention that after 5 years of playing the same game, it can become "40/53" of your team.

That's a lot of cupcakes if you're drafting Pillsbury Doughboys year after year. Try as I might, I don't see a single lock to become a HOFer in all of Donahoe's draft picks for The Bills. Yeah, yeah everybody says Free Agents like Fletch and TKO. Fine. Seems to me we had a few pretty good Free Agents back in the day too- guys like Steve Tasker, Pete Metzelaars, James Lofton, Bryce Paup, Chris Spielman and Art Still come to mind. I'd take any of those guys in their heyday over the current crop of incumbents - hands down!

 

(OK, technically Tasker was grabbed off Waivers from Houston by Marv, so he wasn't a "Free Agent.")

[Orton's Arm]

[The draft is] far from . . . the most important tool in team building.

I disagree. I feel the draft is the strongest single tool at team building. Look at the Steelers' first round picks from 2001 - 2005.

 

2001: Casey Hampton. Result: an outstanding NT.

2002: Kendall Simmons, G. Result: a quality starter on football's best OL.

2003: Troy Polamalu, SS. Result: a dominating playmaker for their defense.

2004: Ben Roethlisberger, QB. Result: in 2005, Big Ben posted a QB rating in the 90s during the regular season and the playoffs.

2005: Heath Miller, TE. Result: very encouraging thus far.

 

Compare this to TD's drafting record during the first round:

 

2001: Nate Clements. Result: regressed considerably after his Pro Bowl season in 2004.

2002: Mike Williams. Result: Bust

2003a: traded for Drew Bledsoe. Result: released after three years.

2003b: Willis McGahee. Result: This was the second time in three years TD used a high draft pick on a RB, despite starting off with Antowain Smith. Thus far, McGahee's been about what you'd expect from someone drafted where he was.

2004a: Lee Evans. Result: chosen 13th overall, Evans has yet to prove he can be the go-to guy.

2004b: J.P. Losman. Result: discouraging thus far.

 

The difference between the Bills' and Steelers' drafting records goes a long way towards explaining the different outcomes experienced by those two teams.

[Pyrite Gal]

I disagree.  I feel the draft is the strongest single tool at team building.  Look at the Steelers' first round picks from 2001 - 2005.

 

2001: Casey Hampton.  Result: an outstanding NT.

2002: Kendall Simmons, G.  Result: a quality starter on football's best OL.

2003: Troy Polamalu, SS.  Result: a dominating playmaker for their defense.

2004: Ben Roethlisberger, QB.  Result: in 2005, Big Ben posted a QB rating in the 90s during the regular season and the playoffs.

2005: Heath Miller, TE.  Result: so far, so good.

 

Compare this to TD's drafting record during the first round:

 

2001: Nate Clements.  Result: regressed considerably after his Pro Bowl season in 2004.

2002: Mike Williams.  Result: Bust

2003a: traded for Drew Bledsoe.  Result: released after three years.

2003b: Willis McGahee.  Result: This was the second time in three years TD used a high draft pick on a RB, despite starting off with Antowain Smith.  Thus far, McGahee's been about what you'd expect from someone drafted where he was.

2004a: Lee Evans.  Result: chosen 13th overall, Evans has yet to prove he can be the go-to guy.

2004b: J.P. Losman.  Result: discouraging thus far.

 

The difference between the Bills' and Steelers' drafting records goes a long way towards explaining the different outcomes experienced by those two teams.

692832[/snapback]

 

One can cherry pick teams to show the draft is not where the lionshare of their of their strength comes from (About 1/3 of the NE team which won an SB for the 2001 season was actually acquired after June 1st and the draft role as far as import was not first day pick Bledsoe but 6th round pick Brady which I think speaks to the case that even though the draft is important its not the most important part of team building or that the draft did provide key players) or vice-versa.

 

I have not found or had the time to look for a summary of how many NFL players remain on the team which drafted them, but if someone has these figures or is able to take the time to figure this out for the Bills or for the NFL as a whole that would tell us alot and i for one would be quite grateful to see it.

 

I think the factoid which has not been controverted by any objective assessment I have seen is that TD has said that only about 50% of even first round choices disappoint. If this is true (and if it isn't I'd love to see than just some one's fact-free opinion showing it isn't) it exemplifies that the draft can reasonably considered a crapshoot rather than the primary team building tool.

 

I think folks get fooled by the fact that good players have to come from somewhere and in general good players are drafted to make the leap that a team is in fact drafting good players.

 

Teams actually draft players also that are better college players than pros, they draft good players but fail to develop them, they draft good players but have better playerson the depth chart they cannot supplant, and most all there are 31 other teams out there taking away the players they judge to be good.

 

What a team is left with is not the the lionshare of the future each year, but with 8 or so players half who whom are gonna be gone in 2 years. After 4 years, only a couple of those players drafted are going to be with the same team even if they remain in the NFL.

 

Also, the description you make of the Bills drafts are simply humorous.

 

One could make a description of the same years and state the charitable side of the case (and actually the fact that about 3 years are needed to assess a draft) and make a totslly different case. Do you think the description below has "facts" that are objectively wrong:

 

2001: Nate Clements. Result: Choice made the Pro Bowl in 2004 and even after he regressed last year still merited a top 5 CB salary. Hit

2002: Mike Williams. Result: Bust

2003a: traded for Drew Bledsoe. Result: released after three years after a very good first year and a bust second Just as cutting him after drafting him cost NE even an appearance in the playoffs the year they won the SB, cutting Bledsoe after resigning him resulted in an accerated cap hit that made life difficult last year for the Bills. Result: Awash as far as the draft pick but resigning him was dumb

2003b: Willis McGahee. Result: Rushed for more yards than any Bill ever in his first two years. Still a season too early to summarize the utility of the pick

2004a: Lee Evans. Result: Evans has yet to prove he can be the go-to guy but former #1 WR Moulds threw a hissy-fit and got suspended after Evans was the focal point of the O and he was the decoy leading to 3 Evans TDs in 1 quarter. Still too early to conclude but Bills were quite comfortable in making this choice their #1 WR.

2004b: J.P. Losman. Result: Yet to start 16 games for the Bills in a season yet disappoints some who expect every 1st round QB to produce like Ben RoboQB, when actually the record of 1st round selected QBs producing SB wins for the team which drafted him are quite dismal. Again it is still to early to rationally draw conclusions on a first two years which is as disappointing for Bills fans as Eric Moulds first two years were.

 

The draft is a lot of fun, but its fun because its such a crapshoot.

[plenzmd1]

That's pretty much the way I've seen it.

691845[/snapback]

 

to bring this back on-topic, this quoate worried me last Septemebr , and it worries me now. Not so much from a bad attitude perspective, but from his own self confidence.

 

I have so many older men counting on me to do my job and make sure I lead them to victory,’’ Losman said. “I’m just starting to feel pressure, all this anxiety and suspense, like I don’t know what’s going to happen with my life right now.

 

I should know more after Week 3 or 4. I’m going to look back and either go, ‘This football thing is going to happen for me,’ Or I’m going to look back and say, ‘Man, this is going to be really tough.’ ’’

[stuckincincy]

I have not found or had the time to look for a summary of how many NFL players remain on the team which drafted them, but if someone has these figures or is able to take the time to figure this out for the Bills or for the NFL as a whole that would tell us alot and i for one would be quite grateful to see it.

 

692865[/snapback]

 

Well, the B'gals had 28 on their roster as of the end of the '05 season. The eldest is long snapper Brad St. Louis, drafted as a TE in 2000. Out of that, 11 are sure starters.

 

Their OL has two #1's and a #2 drafted by the team, Jones, Anderson, and Steinbach and a 2nd round pick of PHI's, G Bobbie Williams, and C Rich Braham - a 1994 3rd round pick by AZ that somehow ended up with the B'gals that same year.

 

Looking at the Bills' past drafts and their '05 roster, I count 27 (includes big Mike), with the eldest being Schoebel, Edwards, and Clements from the 2001 draft. My count is likely in error - I'm not sure of who was on the exact roster at the end of '05.

 

As starters - Losman, Kelsey, Evans, Schoebel, McGee, McGahee, Clements for sure.

 

You would have to add Crowell and get Denney and Edwards in the starter list, somehow.

 

So the two clubs seem comparable in hanging onto draftees and getting them into the lineup, although the Bills not drafting OL's early is notable. And the B'gals discovery of religion happened after their 10+ years of thumb wrestling AZ for the NFL Bozo of the Year title.

Edited May 17, 2006 by stuckincincy

[RuntheDamnBall]

to bring this back on-topic, this quoate worried me last Septemebr , and it worries me now. Not so much from a bad attitude perspective, but from his own self confidence.

 

I have so many older men counting on me to do my job and make sure I lead them to victory,’’ Losman said. “I’m just starting to feel pressure, all this anxiety and suspense, like I don’t know what’s going to happen with my life right now.

 

I should know more after Week 3 or 4. I’m going to look back and either go, ‘This football thing is going to happen for me,’ Or I’m going to look back and say, ‘Man, this is going to be really tough.’ ’’

692893[/snapback]

I think that is indeed something to consider, maybe even worry about. Again, I think the seeds for this unrest and confidence-drainer were planted by the front office and coaching staff by letting Bledsoe go and saying there was no way he would be the starter, instead of saying: "Drew, you let us down and we feel you need to prove you're the guy. We have someone with talent waiting in the wings, and we expected playoffs. You've got to bring it. For now, it's an open competition between you and JP."

 

How hard would that have been? I know nobody wanted Flutie-Johnson II, and I hate sounding like a broken record, but what would it have done for the team (and for JP) if he could have won the job outright from a guy who is a proven NFL QB, if not a proven playoff-caliber QB (anymore)? And if he hadn't, he'd still have the opportunity to jump in if Drew faltered. Drew was let go because he was given the indication he had no chance of starting. We lost money and a season on this one because Mularkey and Donahoe made what would become just one of many boneheaded decisions.

 

Still none of this says to me that JP is a player of poor character or ethic, and says everything to me about how this organization has mishandled him to this point.

[dave mcbride]

2003b: Willis McGahee.  Result: Rushed for more yards than any Bill ever in his first two years. Still a season too early to summarize the utility of the pick

692865[/snapback]

i'm not going to let you get away with this. for one, he rushed for less than 1200 yards in his first two seasons. he was a well-paid member of the bills in 2003, lest you forget. as well, as i mentioned elsewhere, he was a less productive back in the first two seasons he played than thurman thomas in terms of yardage gained.

[Orton's Arm]

What a team is left with is not the the lionshare of the future each year, but with 8 or so players half who whom are gonna be gone in 2 years.

Maybe that's true. But the better teams tend to get more than average performance from their draft picks, while worse teams tend to get less than average production. To keep this from drifting off-topic--for example, with questions about whether Losman will someday be good--I'll look just at who produced what in 2005.

 

Bills' pick: Nate Clements. Comparison Steelers' pick: Troy Polamalu. Advantage: Steelers.

Bills' pick: Mike Williams. Comparsion Steelers' pick: Kendall Simmons, G. Advantage: heavily in favor of Steelers.

Bills' pick: Drew Bledsoe. Comparison Steelers' pick: none necessary, as Bledsoe wasn't on the roster in 2005.

Bills' pick: Willis McGahee. Comparison Steelers' pick: Casey Hampton, NT. Advantage: slightly in favor of Steelers.

Bills' pick: Lee Evans (750 receiving yards). Comparison Steelers' pick: Heath Miller, TE (450 receiving yards + blocking). Advantage: Bills.

Bills' pick: J.P. Losman. Comparison Steelers' pick: Ben Roethisberger. Advantage: ridiculously in favor of the Steelers.

 

In 2005, the Steelers got a lot more production from their first round draft picks than the Bills did that same year. This goes a long way towards explaining why the Steelers won the Super Bowl, while the Bills went 5-11.

 

Edit: one of the reasons the Bills did better in 2004 than in 2005 was because their first round draft picks produced more in 2004. Bledsoe was still on the roster and producing in 2004. Nate Clements did a lot better in 2004, and Mike Williams was worlds better in 2004 than 2005. Lee Evans also produced more, as did Willis McGahee after adjusting for the number of games played.

[RuntheDamnBall]

i'm not going to let you get away with this. for one, he rushed for less than 1200 yards in his first two seasons. he was a well-paid member of the bills in 2003, lest you forget. as well, as i mentioned elsewhere, he was a less productive back in the first two seasons he played than thurman thomas in terms of yardage gained.

692932[/snapback]

His argument was on rushing, which is fine, and I think everyone recognizes the disadvantage of having to have Willis sit for about 20 games before truly beginning his Bills career.

 

All the same,

1) doesn't have much to do with Losman, and

2) Willis is the back we have, and I don't mind supporting him, even if he isn't quite as good as the best all-purpose Bills back ever.

[CaliforniaCheez]

Many teams don't handle a progressing QB well and they remember the length of their career instead of what they are becoming.

 

If you look at psychological strength Losman is at a critical part of his career. He will either get tougher this year or he won't.

 

Craig Nall has survived roster battles and can handle the pressure. I think he is mentally stronger and will peform better under pressure.

 

Let's say each QB gets to start a perseason game. The guy going first, likely Losman, will look a bit worse because the team is not yet ready. It will be a disadvantage.

 

I don't know how much time is left on Holcomb's contract and cap implications of each guy(Bills cap page is not up to date) but the third place QB will, in my opinion, be traded before the 2007 season. They are too valuable to stand around in a baseball cap.

 

How Losman responds to the challenge is important.

 

Nall is unknown to most of you but when you see him play you should be convinced he will be the starter.

 

Not only in preseason but I hope Nall has 15 great regular season games.

[1billsfan]

Craig Nall has survived roster battles and can handle the pressure.  I think he is mentally stronger and will peform better under pressure.

692966[/snapback]

 

 

This statement is baseless. Unlike Losman and Holcomb, Nall has never been asked to perform under pressure.

 

BTW, what roster battle or NFL game of meaning has he survived? Winning a third string spot and handling mop-up duty doesn't count as pressure.

[Bill from NYC]

Winning a third string spot and handling mop-up duty doesn't count as pressure.

692983[/snapback]

 

Sure it does, compared to Losman. Are you kidding me? JP was drafted in the 1st round, let alone picks were given away to do this. He was assured of making the team.

Last season, he flat out sucked, yet he is seemingly the front runner for the starting slot. Nall had to tough it out just to make a roster while JP was high-fiving on the sidelines, sucking on the football field, and collecting the big paychecks.

 

You are WAY off base here, sorry.

[RuntheDamnBall]

Sure it does, compared to Losman. Are you kidding me? JP was drafted in the 1st round, let alone picks were given away to do this. He was assured of making the team.

Last season, he flat out sucked, yet he is seemingly the front runner for the starting slot. Nall had to tough it out just to make a roster while JP was high-fiving on the sidelines, sucking on the football field, and collecting the big paychecks.

 

You are WAY off base here, sorry.

693152[/snapback]

Not sure I agree with you here, Bill. The expectations for Nall correspond to his perceived talent. People have saddled JP with expectations due to the talent they believe he has. That's pressure. Nall may have had to fight it out for the No. 3 spot (and consequently, if you want to look at things the same way, he lost his No. 2 job to Rogers pretty quickly). But he has not faced the pressure JP does by virtue of talent. People don't expect much of Nall, hence less pressure.

 

He has also not faced the in-game pressure JP has, at all. I'm sure you can't argue this. Especially with the line we were putting out there.

[Bill from NYC]

Not sure I agree with you here, Bill.  The expectations for Nall correspond to his perceived talent.  People have saddled JP with expectations due to the talent they believe he has.  That's pressure.  Nall may have had to fight it out for the No. 3 spot (and consequently, if you want to look at things the same way, he lost his No. 2 job to Rogers pretty quickly).  But he has not faced the pressure JP does by virtue of talent.  People don't expect much of Nall, hence less pressure.

 

He has also not faced the in-game pressure JP has, at all.  I'm sure you can't argue this.  Especially with the line we were putting out there.

693154[/snapback]

 

I agree with all of what you say, but I ask you to think of this in terms of economics. Nall could have easily been out of football if he failed to produce. JP was going to make millions of dollars whether he sucked or not based on the slot in which he was selected.

 

My contention with the other poster was that he seemed to imply that JP faceed all kinds of pressure and that Nall faced none.

 

Personally, I don't care which one of these guys win the job, as long as they are good, because that is all that matters to me as a Bills Fan.

 

PS: Being #3 to a Hall of Fame QB and a 1st round pick can be viewed as an accomplishment.

[RuntheDamnBall]

I agree with all of what you say, but I ask you to think of this in terms of economics. Nall could have easily been out of football if he failed to produce. JP was going to make millions of dollars whether he sucked or not based on the slot in which he was selected.

 

My contention with the other poster was that he seemed to imply that JP faceed all kinds of pressure and that Nall faced none.

 

Personally, I don't care which one of these guys win the job, as long as they are good, because that is all that matters to me as a Bills Fan.

 

PS: Being #3 to a Hall of Fame QB and a 1st round pick can be viewed as an accomplishment.

693164[/snapback]

I'd say that makes Nall tenacious. I'm still not sure it means he's faced certifiable pressure. But words are words and they don't mean much. At the end of the day I feel the way you do. If one or more of these cats steps up for us and produces, I don't care if his name is Craig Ochs. I'll admit a certain part of me wants it to be Losman because he seems to work hard and you want to see your high picks make good on their promise. We'll see!

[ganesh]

Separate form any feelings about his performance on the field, I personally thought Bledsoe was a pretty stand-up guy, and the thing that always stands out in my mind when he left was his incredulitity that they were handing the job over to JP in particular.  Sure he was bitter about the way he left, but the shock and awe he displayed about JP being handed the job I think spoke volumes.  It was obvious JP didn't do much to earn his respect, and he didn't think JP was anywhere close to being ready for a variety of reasons - and I think a lot of other players felt the same.  Some maybe still do.

692206[/snapback]

 

The fact that Bledsoe did not own up to his poor performanec against the 3rd stringers in cthe season finale speaks volume aboet his credibility......

[Kelly the Dog]

Not sure I agree with you here, Bill.  The expectations for Nall correspond to his perceived talent.  People have saddled JP with expectations due to the talent they believe he has.  That's pressure.  Nall may have had to fight it out for the No. 3 spot (and consequently, if you want to look at things the same way, he lost his No. 2 job to Rogers pretty quickly).  But he has not faced the pressure JP does by virtue of talent.  People don't expect much of Nall, hence less pressure.

 

He has also not faced the in-game pressure JP has, at all.  I'm sure you can't argue this.  Especially with the line we were putting out there.

693154[/snapback]

I guess I just never fall for a quarterback being a #1 pick and having more pressure on him to perform, or a quarterback looking over his shoulder and not playing well because he knows he will be yanked. That is not why he fails, he fails because he couldn't deal with pressure of being an NFL quarterback.

 

The NFL quarterback is the toughest position to play in all of sports. The difference in the physical talent between a successful one and a flop is usually tiny. It's how he deals with the micro-second decisions, the oncoming maniacs inches from his face, the speed of the defense, and the pressure of the time clock and game that separates the good ones from the bad ones. If JP (or Nall for that matter) is going to be a good quarterback in this league it matters not who he is up against, or who may be behind him. If he's looking over his shoulder, he's already failed.