Call for examples of Losman's "attitude"

[RuntheDamnBall]

As above I am not a JP basher or disciple.

 

One thing that is hard for me to get past with JP is incidents from his his rookie season.  When Vincent hit him and he broke his leg, *NOTE: Vincent obviously did not do it with the intention of breaking his leg*, but still it was obvious (to me) that Vincent gave him a little shot in practice because he didn't like JP's attitude/behavior.  Then fast forward to the NE game when Mularkey threw him in there completely by surprise - there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that was done to send him a message and tell him he better start getting his head on straight and taking a different approach to the game. 

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What's obvious to you is still conjecture in my book and nobody's gone on the record to say anything different. I'd love to hear from anyone who was at that practice how it really looked. The fact is, Vincent still strayed from practice protocol. He should be viewed as the guy in the wrong there, IMO.

 

Wrt JP's being thrown in there in the NE game, that to me exemplified Mularkey's ghastly stupidity. You have the defending champions literally tearing your team to pieces and you're going to throw in the kid who's been sitting for two months with a broken leg? Blaming Losman for that one goes beyond the pale. Mularkey would only go on to prove further that he had rocks in his head with last year's play calling.

So much is said of how much he studied tape with Wyche etc. before last season as a measure of how inherently studious and hard-working he is - but that was not how he was when he showed up.  Sure you can say "Well - he was a rookie, what do you expect?" - BUT, even if he was a "trout-mouthed" rookie and somewhat overwhelmed - if being so hardworking and studious was really part of his make-up, why was it so completely missing his rookie season?  It certainly did not appear that he was acting in a way that earned respect from other players or the coaches that first year.

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I'll take "he was recovering from a broken leg and wasn't taking many reps in practice" for $200, Alex.

Separate form any feelings about his performance on the field, I personally thought Bledsoe was a pretty stand-up guy, and the thing that always stands out in my mind when he left was his incredulitity that they were handing the job over to JP in particular.  Sure he was bitter about the way he left, but the shock and awe he displayed about JP being handed the job I think spoke volumes.  It was obvious JP didn't do much to earn his respect, and he didn't think JP was anywhere close to being ready for a variety of reasons - and I think a lot of other players felt the same.  Some maybe still do.

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I think what a lot of us disliked about Bledsoe was his lack of fire on the field, especially after games. JP brings this. He's raw. He needs work. But Bledsoe in 12+ seasons has not proven he can win a championship. It was time. JP should have been given the opportunity to win the job from him and it would have done wonders for the team. But again, let's not get into blaming him for the failures of the front office or the coaching staff.

 

Still none of this says a concrete thing to me about Losman having the poor attitude many claim he posesses.

[RayFinkle]

Great.  Moore has had a pretty storied career for the Bills thus far, too, to say nothing of his supreme achievements for the Vikings. 

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This is the funny thing about threads like this. You ask for a specific example, then when somebody gives you one, you shoot it down. Why even start the thread?

[RuntheDamnBall]

This is the funny thing about threads like this. You ask for a specific example, then when somebody gives you one, you shoot it down. Why even start the thread?

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I asked for specific examples about his time with the Bills.

[RuntheDamnBall]

Nanker, I don't know much about UCLA football at the time, but wasn't the point that Losman wasn't going to get a chance to start there soon?

 

If that's the case, who could blame him for looking for that chance? Again, I don't claim to know the intimate details. Also, college kids will be college kids and it doesn't happen as much with guys on football scholarships, but college kids will transfer all the time when they're looking for the best fit for their future.

[Dan Gross]

I hear he's trolling message boards looking for Willis' post-injury 40 times so that he can taunt Willis with them...that's just mean.

[Nanker]

Nanker, I don't know much about UCLA football at the time, but wasn't the point that Losman wasn't going to get a chance to start there soon?

 

If that's the case, who could blame him for looking for that chance?  Again, I don't claim to know the intimate details.  Also, college kids will be college kids and it doesn't happen as much with guys on football scholarships, but college kids will transfer all the time when they're looking for the best fit for their future.

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Me neither really, but some of the crud I dug up seemed to suggest that he really shone in the Spring sessions as a Freshman. Then he had a falling out with the coach and hit the happy highway for a place farther from home and all the hangers-on from the hood.

None of that bothers me. Like I said, I'm not a supporter nor a detractor - yet.

 

I just hope like Dan Gross that he can get those McGahee 40 times soon so the "games" can begin in earnest!

[RuntheDamnBall]

Me neither really, but some of the crud I dug up seemed to suggest that he really shone in the Spring sessions as a Freshman. Then he had a falling out with the coach and hit the happy highway for a place farther from home and all the hangers-on from the hood.

None of that bothers me. Like I said, I'm not a supporter nor a detractor - yet.

 

I just hope like Dan Gross that he can get those McGahee 40 times soon so the "games" can begin in earnest!

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FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, I hope so.

[Orton's Arm]

My main concerns about Losman involve his decision-making, ability to see the field, accuracy, and consistency. As for his attitude, Losman is too much of an emotional roller coaster. It's hard for him to get excited without getting overexcited. When he's down, he gets too down. Part of being a successful quarterback is having an even keel; as Frank Reich did in the comeback game. Not every quarterback is going to have a Reich-like level of emotional maturity, but Losman gives you less than the minimum you need.

 

As was pointed out earlier in this thread, Losman probably didn't work very hard his rookie year. Much was made in the media of how hard he worked last offseason getting ready. Assuming the media reports aren't just hype, Losman's hard work was probably an emotion-laden decision driven by his need to win his teammates' approval, and not because of any inner fire.

 

Well, one wonders, does it matter why Losman worked hard, just so long as he did? But if his hard work came because of one strong emotion, what happens when he starts feeling different emotions? Will he continue to work hard? In any case, how can a man who's unable to govern his own emotions hope to guide his team?

[Orton's Arm]

A JP mock draft "coach killer" blurb 

Well, look at the Bills' front office and coaching staff after JP's first year as starter. Through firings and resignations, the Bills lost the GM who drafted Losman, Losman's head coach, his offensive coordinator, and his position coach. Someone should hand Losman a broom, because that's a clean sweep!

[gobillsinytown]

I always thought it was a little impetuous on Donahoe's part to sacrifice a first round pick in order to get JP, but I was willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.

 

The only problem that I saw with JP in college was that he was playing behind an awful O-line and was running for his life a lot. Sometimes the effects of that can carry over into the pros. After all, it's not necessarlily the "playbook knowledge" that makes a quarterback....it's what he does on instinct, when he doesn't really have time to think. So bad habits learned through having to compensate for bad O-line play can be hard to unlearn. What made it worse for JP was that the Bills'

O-line was probably just as bad as Tulane's. So he had to start compensating for bad O-line play, but this time against defenses that were better than anything he ever saw in college.

I don't think he has a bad attitude or that he's to flaky, because he never got enough game time to prove the issue one way or the other. It didn't help that he had to deal with wierd playcalling either. And to prepare a rookie QB for a

run-first style of play all preseason and then expect him to make a panic switch

to a different style of play wasn't the best thing for him either.

I think the team needs to determine, one way or the other, whether he's team's

QB or not. And it should be this season.

[John from Riverside]

One thing that is getting missed in this convo is what JP Losman is NOT doing....

 

He isn't running his mouth off to the media...and he isn't putting down his teamates.....

 

As a 1st round pick and starting QB I think Losman would have every right to fire back at his detractors.....but he showed his leadership by remaining SILENT

 

I am absolutely a JP Losman supporter

[hootie1]

Unless I am mistaken, Carson Palmer was also handed the starting job over a proven vet, without any public fallout from his teammates. One could wonder, as others have in this thread, if this was becasue Carson was well liked by his teamates, while JP had alienated his.

 

Alternatively, it could have been that Marvin Lewis had better control of his team than did Mularkey, which I think is probably a given. One could even speculate that Kitna handled being passed over better than Bledsoe, and that this too contibuted to the different outcomes.

 

However, despite the fact that poor coaching definitely contributed to the veteran revolt...you still gotta wonder what they really think of JP! But I must agree with those who say they have seen nothing to dislike in his public statements since coming here.

 

You want to know what they mean by "attitude?"  The fact that JP was named starter without a competition.  That rubbed the veterans the wrong way.  JP did nothing wrong.  He studied hard and tried to do his job, but he got tagged as TD's "golden boy."  You remember high school...it's the same thing.

 

PTR

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[Stussy109]

Fletcher said in a recent interview that Holcomb out played JP in camp and during the season. That might be a clue to how some of JP's teammates felt about him. Fletcher might be the best guy in the league to judge JP's ablility playing LB against him in practice. I'm not trying to bash JP. I hope he will learn to throw an accurate ball because that would make him an exciting QB to watch. I don't want the kind of excitement that comes from seeing him throw bad passes like I saw last year. I'd rather be board to death and win than die of a heart attack watching my team lose because of some bonehead play.

 

I'm not sure any of this speaks to JP's attitude.

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Kinda reminds me of the statement "If the Queen had balls, she'd be King" in regards to if JP was acuurate, he'd be good. Funny thing is, I'm a JP supporter.

[Dan Gross]

Unless I am mistaken, Carson Palmer was also handed the starting job over a proven vet, without any public fallout from his teammates. One could wonder, as others have in this thread, if this was becasue Carson was well liked by his teamates, while JP had alienated his.

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It probably had a lot to do with the fact that Kitna stayed with the team, gracefully accepted the backup role, and helped groom Palmer. At the very least I'm sure the team had comfort in knowing Kitna was still there if something horrible were to happen....

[Bill from NYC]

I always thought it was a little impetuous on Donahoe's part to sacrifice a first round pick in order to get JP, but I was willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.

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It was insane imo. Don't forget, we also gave Dallas a 2nd and a 5th. To add insult to injury, we released Bledsoe, got nothing in return for him, and he signed with Dallas. Now, we are a football team filled with holes and question marks and we STILL don't even know if Losman is the starter.

What to do? In this draft, with new management, we tossed away yet another early draft pick. More of the same.

 

All we can do is hope, because things look pretty bleak for the Bills these days.

 

PS: I do NOT blame JP for this mess. What was he supposed to do? Turn down his 1st round contract and starting job?

[Kelly the Dog]

The whole veterans thing, to me, is obvious. The Bills as a team and an organization went into 2005 with very high hopes. They were coming off winning six of their last seven games. Mularkey was 9-7 as a rookie coach. The defense was #2 in the league for the second year in a row. There was talk it was going to be an all-time great defense. The special teams were the best in the league. Evans had come on, Willis looked like he may be special, the offensive line looked like it was coming together. The veteran laden team was jacked up.

 

But the organization, TD in particular, because of the way Bledsoe ended the season, had decided that he had taken them as far as he could. They didn't want to go through another year with a ceiling. If Bledsoe would have played well against Pittsburgh, he would have still been there. But he didn't, so he wasn't. It was the right choice, even in retrospect.

 

It wasn't at all that JP was just handed the job. It was far, far more that Bledsoe had lost the job.

 

The Vets were a little uneasy because they didn't know what they had in JP. They THOUGHT they knew what they had everywhere else (although now we surely knew better). Spikes and Moulds and Campbell and Fletcher and Milloy and Vincent were all sick of losing and thought this was going to be their year. So when JP was a little in over his head, they weren't thinking like a coach or a GM or fan, they weren't willing to go through the growing pains for the good of the team in the long run. They thought their window was now, and they knew they had a likable, pretty efficient, 12 year vet sitting right there who had some playoff experience. And pretty soon, Moulds started getting more vocal. TKO was gone. They saw their high hopes collapsing in front of them and they got selfish.

 

That's all.

 

Had nothing to do with JP's personality or not liking him. They saw in his eyes he was not ready to take control of this team ONCE they had already started tanking themselves. He was not being put in a position to succeed by his coaches or his teammates or his wildly erratic and often lousy play. And it snowballed.

 

There was a lot of blame to go around. The coaches simply lied to us by saying we're going with the guy who gives us the best chance to win. That was never the case. Holcomb was always the guy that gave them the best chance to win simply because of his experience and JP's non-experience. They gambled big and lost big when they saw JP's talent and thought he could pull a Big Ben (even though they didn't give him Big Ben duties).

 

What they should have been doing is looking past this season as soon as TKO got hurt and Milloy and Vincent were hurt and by game three they knew their defense was incapable of stopping teams cold. But they didn't. They went to a lets-try-to-turn-this-thing-around-like-we-did-last-year M.O. even though the parts were not in place. And that backfired and proved disastrous, too.

 

And the fans and JP suffered because of it. TD lost his job because of it. Mularkey lost his job because of it (even though he "quit"). Gray and Clements lost their jobs because of it. Moulds lost his cool and his job because of it. Milloy and Campbell and Adams lost their jobs because of it.

[Bill from NYC]

And the fans and JP suffered because of it.

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Although you and I disagree with the move of cutting Bledsoe, I agree with the majority of what you posted.

 

The above however confuses me. Don't you remember the Miami game? We were all pretty thrilled by the victory. I think that watching JP (most of the time) was suffering.

 

Maybe I misunderstood.....Are you saying that the fans suffered when he was replaced?

[BUFFALOTONE]

The whole veterans thing, to me, is obvious. The Bills as a team and an organization went into 2005 with very high hopes. They were coming off winning six of their last seven games. Mularkey was 9-7 as a rookie coach. The defense was #2 in the league for the second year in a row. There was talk it was going to be an all-time great defense. The special teams were the best in the league. Evans had come on, Willis looked like he may be special, the offensive line looked like it was coming together. The veteran laden team was jacked up.

 

But the organization, TD in particular, because of the way Bledsoe ended the season, had decided that he had taken them as far as he could. They didn't want to go through another year with a ceiling. If Bledsoe would have played well against Pittsburgh, he would have still been there. But he didn't, so he wasn't. It was the right choice, even in retrospect.

 

It wasn't at all that JP was just handed the job. It was far, far more that Bledsoe had lost the job.

 

The Vets were a little uneasy because they didn't know what they had in JP. They THOUGHT they knew what they had everywhere else (although now we surely knew better). Spikes and Moulds and Campbell and Fletcher and Milloy and Vincent were all sick of losing and thought this was going to be their year. So when JP was a little in over his head, they weren't thinking like a coach or a GM or fan, they weren't willing to go through the growing pains for the good of the team in the long run. They thought their window was now, and they knew they had a likable, pretty efficient, 12 year vet sitting right there who had some playoff experience. And pretty soon, Moulds started getting more vocal. TKO was gone. They saw their high hopes collapsing in front of them and they got selfish.

 

That's all.

 

Had nothing to do with JP's personality or not liking him. They saw in his eyes he was not ready to take control of this team ONCE they had already started tanking themselves. He was not being put in a position to succeed by his coaches or his teammates or his wildly erratic and often lousy play. And it snowballed.

 

There was a lot of blame to go around. The coaches simply lied to us by saying we're going with the guy who gives us the best chance to win. That was never the case. Holcomb was always the guy that gave them the best chance to win simply because of his experience and JP's non-experience. They gambled big and lost big when they saw JP's talent and thought he could pull a Big Ben (even though they didn't give him Big Ben duties).

 

What they should have been doing is looking past this season as soon as TKO got hurt and Milloy and Vincent were hurt and by game three they knew their defense was incapable of stopping teams cold. But they didn't. They went to a lets-try-to-turn-this-thing-around-like-we-did-last-year M.O. even though the parts were not in place. And that backfired and proved disastrous, too.

 

And the fans and JP suffered because of it. TD lost his job because of it. Mularkey lost his job because of it (even though he "quit"). Gray and Clements lost their jobs because of it. Moulds lost his cool and his job because of it. Milloy and Campbell and Adams lost their jobs because of it.

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GOOD READ KELLY

[Kelly the Dog]

Although you and I disagree with the move of cutting Bledsoe, I agree with the majority of what you posted.

 

The above however confuses me. Don't you remember the Miami game? We were all pretty thrilled by the victory. I think that watching JP (most of the time) was suffering.

 

  Maybe I misunderstood.....Are you saying that the fans suffered when he was replaced?

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The fans lost because we had to suffer through last season's debacle, it tore apart the fan base like the RJ/Flutie years, we are still no closer to finding out if Losman is going to be a decent starter or franchise quarterback in this league, and the organization became part of a laughingstock. Going from near the top of the heap as an organization (at least in perception), to a total shambles, in one short year.

[Bill from NYC]

The fans lost because we had to suffer through last season's debacle, it tore apart the fan base like the RJ/Flutie years, we are still no closer to finding out if Losman is going to be a decent starter or franchise quarterback in this league, and the organization became part of a laughingstock. Going from near the top of the heap as an organization (at least in perception), to a total shambles, in one short year.

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Gotcha.

No argument here, but I do also think that dumb trades and selections in the draft came home to roost.

Sadly, it seems as if the "new" regime is doing the same dumb things, except on the other side of the ball.