What's your definition of "character guy"??

[BobbyC81]

I wonder what Marv Levy's definiton of "character guy" is??

 

My definition would be: " a solid person, player and teammate who does what is asked of him, keeps his mouth shut and leads by example. " I would also expect a "character guy" not to get in trouble with the law or violate team rules. He would also not do stupid things on the field resulting in 15-yard unsportsmanlike penalties at inopportune times.

 

So, per my definition, "character guys" currently or recently on the Bills roster would be:

 

Troy Vincent- as NFLPA union prez, he is highly regarded around the NFL. He was signed by the Bills to be a cornerback which is where he started. After an injury, and with McGee playing so well, he was moved to FS, a position he never played. I don't recall hearing him say one negative word (at least publicly) about the move. He just did what was asked and performed admirably. He is a leader by example.

 

Kelly Holcomb- he was brought in to possibly compete for the QB position but then it was given to Losman. I never heard about any negative comments from him about this. He then was put in as starter, pulled back out again for Losman and then put back in at the end of the year. He just did what was asked.

 

Justin Bannan- he was moved around from D-line to O-line and back again and his quotes were like: "I'll do whatever the coaches want."

 

 

 

Non-character guys:

 

Travis Henry- arrested on suspicion of rape as a rookie. Whined and complained when McGahee was drafted and then when be was benched in favor of Willis. Suspended for violation of league drug policy.

 

Peerless Price- was always trash talking, which a few times resulted in altercations and unsportsmanlike penalties. I recallone time where he made a good play for a reception late in the game for a first down but then started trash-talking and threw the ball at the DB and got 15 yards.

 

I'm sure the next ones will get some responses-

 

Cornelius Bennett- seen on national TV, in a game where the Bills are being humiliated, laughing it up on the sidelines. Was one of the ring-leaders when the Bills went to the Super Bowl the 1st time and partied all week which most believe affected their preparation and play for that 1st Super Bowl.

 

Bruce Smith- had numerous excuses for showing late to training camp and not practicing. Didn't get a flu shot and was too sick to play for a playoff game. Whined about his contract all the time. Was found sitting in his car at a traffic light asleep from being drunk.

[Pyrite Gal]

I wonder what Marv Levy's definiton of "charcter guy" is??

 

My definition would be: " a solid person, player and teammate who does what is asked of him, keeps his mouth shut and leads by example. "  I would also expect a "character guy" not to get in trouble with the law or violate team rules.  He would also not do stupid things on the field resulting in 15-yard unsportsmanlike penalties at inopportune times.

 

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I think trying to boil this down to a definition is really hard to do. Having good character is such a broad complex things and understandable communicative writing is such a boiled down thing, that it is very hard to embody the true meaning of character in one phrase.

 

We have to boil it down if we want to communicate effectively (otherwise every sentence would be as long and covoluted as one of my rambling posts). However, when we do attempt to boil this down and define it, front and center needs to be an acknowledgment or a reflection that the definer understands his definition will be incomplete, fall short or quite easily depicted as wrong or contradictory.

 

For example, I think I know what you mean when you say keeping your mouth shut is a part of good character, but it seems quite clear to me that vocally standing up to injustice and unfairness is required for someone of good character. It in fact can be helpful to building a good team because a person of good character vocally stands up and becomes a spokesperson for the team.

 

Particularly since the media often makes money by telling lies, a player of good character will be known for opening his mouth at the right time to say the right thing.

[BobbyC81]

Particularly since the media often makes money by telling lies, a player of good character will be known for opening his mouth at the right time to say the right thing.

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True but what I meant there was that I believe a "character guy" doesn't whine and complain all the time in the media they way Travis Henry did after McGahee was drafted and what Bruce used to do about his contract.

[Rico]

Travis Henry in 2003 was a football character guy, he was the only player on O amongst all those sorry losers to show up and play hard every week. I think that's the kind of character Marv is looking for above all else.

 

It's clear he also frowns on and avoids players with character problems off the field, but I think "football character" on the field and how they will fit in the locker room is valued higher.

[BuffOrange]

Travis Henry in 2003 was a football character guy, he was the only player on O amongst all those sorry losers to show up and play hard every week. I think that's the kind of character Marv is looking for above all else.

 

It's clear he also frowns on and avoids players with character problems off the field, but I think "football character" on the field and how they will fit in the locker room is valued higher.

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I agree, I'm sure Travis isn't a saint but relatively - that one incident to me doesn't prove he's a horrible person. The guy played hard in how many games with a broken leg in '03? I'm sorry but Willis quit last year more than TH ever did. I also think Brad Butler's disgusting cheapshot says more about his character than a lot of highly publicized off the field incidents that some athletes take grief for. OK flame away.

[Pyrite Gal]

I agree, I'm sure Travis isn't a saint  but relatively - that one incident to me doesn't prove he's a horrible person.  The guy played hard in how many games with a broken leg in '03?  I'm sorry but Willis quit last year more than TH ever did.  I also think Brad Butler's disgusting cheapshot says more about his character than a lot of highly publicized off the field incidents that some athletes take grief for.  OK flame away.

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No flaming from me regarding Butler as though I do not hold your opinion of what the cheapshot he made means regarding his overall character, it is mostly because he seems to have led a life filled with other actions that generally can go with (but are not proof-positive of) what a fan should consider to be high character acts (he has demontrably worked hard, achieved academi excellence, has done a number of unpaid educational activities and has participated in charity events for kids.

 

He coo;d have done this things for machiavellian reasons, but a number of folks who are well known) UVA prof and governmental commentator Larry Sabato or )qould likely kill him if he stepped out of line) like the father of the girl/woman he dates have gone on record for his over-arching character.

 

His low-character transgression was punished and he apologized so I for one and willing to trust but verify as a fan and simply will be less forgiving if he fouls up again and he owes no further explanantion IMHO even though he has inserted himself into the public sphere as an NFL player.

 

However, I do differentiate between Butler as a person who I think does not deserve additional grief and who owes us no explanation from the corporation known as the Buffalo Bills.

 

They are in the public sphere big time, and I think since they set the standard that they were going to get high character guys, the corporation owes its customers an explanation about how drafting a man suspended for a low-character act fits with their marketing promise.

 

Though I think Butler owes no additional apology or explanation than the apology he already made accompanying his admission of screwing up and his suspension by UVA, I think the corporation known as the Buffalo Bills does owe its customers an exaplanation of its thinking and how this squares with their previous words.

 

The good thing for the Bills is that I think they have a credible explanation for this much in line with what I said above. However, like many corporations I think they may well hide behind the punishment Butler got and deserved for the cheapshot and the sense he owes no explanation to pretend that the corporation owes no and actually would benefit from being proactive about this issue and explaining how this fit with their marketing promise to their customers.

 

I think the Bills are foolish to confuse the forgiveness Butler deserves because he was punished, apologized and has no past history of idiocy like his cheapshot with the fact I think the Bills set the charcter standard for judging them. While you and I who are addicted to TSW may know the Butler bsckstory that indicates he deserves at least a trust but verify attitude, i think most fans who remember this or care about it will only see the videotape of the hit or remember it and connect it to Butler.

 

I hope the Bills are smart enough not to try to hide behind Butler having apologized to not fess up to the fact that their promise of getting high character guys does not scan with the videotape of the cheapshot.

 

The Bills do not need to explain for Butler's act, they need to explain for how their self-announced standard is met by a fuller study of the Butler story.

[hootie1]

levy addressed his definition of character in one of his initial press conferences, saying that he did not mean personality, but rather football character. He described this as someone who works hard to prepare off the field and always hustles on the field. It has struck me in the various descriptions I have read of Donte Whitner that he has "football character" in spades.

 

As for Travis Henry, the season he played on a broken leg, he established to me that he has football character. And whining? Would a guy with "football character" just sit back and say "sure, give Willis the job?" I think not.

[Sisyphean Bills]

A cartoon character.

[Adam]

A character player puts team above self- somebody who is not selfish. Players wothout character tear the fabric of a team, forming groups that split the team.

 

Terrell Owens ios not a character player, Rod Smith is one.

[Pyrite Gal]

A character player puts team above self- somebody who is not selfish. Players wothout character tear the fabric of a team, forming groups that split the team.

 

Terrell Owens ios not a character player, Rod Smith is one.

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I agree generally alot with this point. The problem for Marv is that he is and always has benn "The General" of a team which operates in reality.

 

Though he and we may want men who operate at the standards of high character both on and off the field. These two do not always occur at the same time. I think Marv has said based on some of the comments from Marv sited in this thread that he really means high football character guys and not high outside world morality chatacter guys.

 

Thus, the comments of a player like Willis McGahee in a recent ESPN interview which show a character regarding raising his own children and the "baby mommas" (there are actually two women whom he has never been married who are mothers of his children) who bore them is at least questionable and in any case does no represent high outside world character is not necessarily a factor for him in choosing high character players.

 

I think the much more difficult question for Marv is that when and the team selects a player who by most admissions (even his own appaently and certainly his university's when they suspended him) who made a chepashot on the footbal field how this fits with his announced plan to his customers that this is gonna be even a high character football team.

 

I think there are good answers to this legit question regarding Butler, and though Butler has already been asked and answered these questions to this customer's satisfaction, I think the Bills declaration to their customers puts this corporation (which is a different thing than the individual Butler) on the hotseat where I hope the Bills are proactive about laying out the reasons why Butler may be a high character guy despite this classless cheapshot caught on videotape.

 

I think the more interesting question for Marv is that I think when we look back at the roster of Bills on the historic early 90s team, there is a legitimate question it seems to be whether many of those Bills would have met a football (not to mention an off the field) character tests and been members of this team.

 

I think that Bruce Smith for example would be a person who almost certainly would not have passed am off-field character test (his public behavior leading to his arrest and claim of sleep apnea) and many questions have been raised because he always played fast and loose with illness claims (leading to him not participating in training camp) which led to question about his true level of illness which caused him to miss a playoff game.

 

I beilive him regarding the fever which cost him the playoff game and even am willing to support the legal system giving hm the benefit of the doubt regarding sleep apnea. However, there is still a question with him playing games to avoid camp requirements (requirements in his contract which he avoided which actually never effected his play as best as I can tell) which I would not describe as high character.

 

Beyond Bruce it seems to me quite clear that HOF player Jim Kelly would fail any high character test involving his behavior in the outside world and even on the team where rather than calling out his teamates privately or publicly within the locker room, he was a mainstay of the Bickering Bills with his thinly veiled public calling out of Howard the House Ballard among others.

 

I think one of the best things about Marv is that he somehow was able to hold together as a team a bunch of talented men who invested in a number of low character public acts some of which directly impacted the team.

 

It strikes me that if we actually suceed in producing a high character team even using the low standard of high football character) that this means we will need to win without players such as Jimbo, Bruce or the suspended but we said we still wanted him Eric Moulds.

[Mikie2times]

levy addressed his definition of character in one of his initial press conferences, saying that he did not mean personality, but rather football character. He described this as someone who works hard to prepare off the field and always hustles on the field. It has struck me in the various descriptions I have read of Donte Whitner that he has "football character" in spades.

 

As for Travis Henry, the season he played on a broken leg, he established to me that he has football character. And whining? Would a guy with "football character" just sit back and say "sure, give Willis the job?" I think not.

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Good post.

 

Character on the field in many ways is exactly what you/Levy describe it to be. Is a player going to give 100% effort when he's playing, and will a player do everything possible to maximize his natural limitations when he's not playing. That's what football character means to me. Just like in many aspects of life a football player can vastly exceed his natural limitations if he has these attributes. But what's more difficult to define, and subsequently more difficult to find is players who not only possess football character but character as a PERSON.

 

In life character as a person can mean many different things, and is much broader then the type of character a person needs to fit in on a NFL team. To put it simply a player does not need to be a Saint to have enough character as a person to be a good NFL teamate. But what a player does need is an accepting attitude toward his teammates and general respect for his fellow teammates. He also can't have an egocentric outlook because with that approach a player will have a very difficult time meeting the two previously mentioned character requirements. Finding both types of character in a player is critical because without both types the football character of the team will certainly be affected. Teams thrive with chemistry and acceptance in the locker room, and the number one thing that can boost the team’s football character is a genuine desire to achieve not only for yourself but for the guy next to you.

 

Congrats to Marv and Co. As they appeared to nab several guys this year that not only have both types of character but that also have a great deal of physical talent.

[Adam]

I agree generally alot with this point.  The problem for Marv is that he is and always has benn "The General" of a team which operates in reality.

 

Though he and we may want men who operate at the standards of high character both on and off the field. These two do not always occur at the same time.  I think Marv has said based on some of the comments from Marv sited in this thread that he really means high football character guys and not high outside world morality chatacter guys.

 

Thus, the comments of a player like Willis McGahee in a recent ESPN interview which show a character regarding raising his own children and the "baby mommas" (there are actually two women whom he has never been married who are mothers of his children) who bore them is at least questionable and in any case does no represent high outside world character is not necessarily a factor for him in choosing high character players.

 

I think the much more difficult question for Marv is that when and the team selects a player who by most admissions (even his own appaently and certainly his  university's when they suspended him) who made a chepashot on the footbal field how this fits with his announced plan to his customers that this is gonna be even a high character football team.

 

I think there are good answers to this legit question regarding Butler, and though Butler has already been asked and answered these questions to this customer's satisfaction, I think the Bills declaration to their customers puts this corporation (which is a different thing than the individual Butler) on the hotseat where I hope the Bills are proactive about laying out the reasons why Butler may be a high character guy despite this classless cheapshot caught on videotape.

 

I think the more interesting question for Marv is that I think when we look back at the roster of Bills on the historic early 90s team, there is a legitimate question it seems to be whether many of those Bills would have met a football (not to mention an off the field) character tests and been members of this team.

 

I think that Bruce Smith for example would be a person who almost certainly would not have passed am off-field character test (his public behavior leading to his arrest and claim of sleep apnea) and many questions have been raised because he always played fast and loose with illness claims (leading to him not participating in training camp) which led to question about his true level of illness which caused him to miss a playoff game.

 

I beilive him regarding the fever which cost him the playoff game and even am willing to support the legal system giving hm the benefit of the doubt regarding sleep apnea.  However, there is still a question with him playing games to avoid camp requirements (requirements in his contract which he avoided which actually never effected his play as best as I can tell) which I would not describe as high character.

 

Beyond Bruce it seems to me quite clear that HOF player Jim Kelly would fail any high character test involving his behavior in the outside world and even on the team where rather than calling out his teamates privately or publicly within the locker room, he was a mainstay of the Bickering Bills with his thinly veiled public calling out of Howard the House Ballard among others.

 

I think one of the best things about Marv is that he somehow was able to hold together as a team a bunch of talented men who invested in a number of low character public acts some of which directly impacted the team.

 

It strikes me that if we actually suceed in producing a high character team even using the low standard of high football character) that this means we will need to win without players such as Jimbo, Bruce or the suspended but we said we still wanted him Eric Moulds.

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Once you have these players, leaders will emrge- at that point, you have the leaders who will keep others in line.....as long as you dont go so far as to add a Terrell Owens

[kota]

yes, look at the Sabres. I don't see a big name Hockey player in the mix. Just a bunch of guys who want to play and win. High character guys jell together well.

[OnTheRocks]

i think there are a few charcaters hanging around TBD.

[apuszczalowski]

I don't see what Butler did as something that makes him not a character kind Levy wants. It was a single stupid move that he did and later served his punishment and apoligised for it. He was not none for doing that alot and it was a single incident. If it happened again I would say yes he is not a high character player, but until then, I will trust the Bills judgement on him

[nick in* england]

Character only does so much. Fat Mike was a character guy when we drafted him.

[5 Wide]

Character only does so much. Fat Mike was a character guy when we drafted him.

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Was he? or was he a nice guy. Big difference, seemed like a guy you wouldn't mind dating your daughter or havingin in your circle of friends, but I highly doubt his work ethic or lack of passion for the game inspired any of his teammates.

[BuckeyeBill]

Would you have considered OJ Simpson a character guy in his day?

[Catholic Guilt]

Frank Reich...

[hootie1]

If part of football character includes giving no ground and imposing your will on the other team, taken to extreme, I could see it resulting in actions like Butlers. Maybe his problem is he has too much football character- a warrior mentality that got out of hand!

 

No flaming from me regarding Butler as though I do not hold your opinion of what the cheapshot he made means regarding his overall character, it is mostly because he seems to have led a life filled with other actions that generally can go with (but are not proof-positive of) what a fan should consider to be high character acts (he has demontrably worked hard, achieved academi excellence, has done a number of unpaid educational activities and has participated in charity events for kids.

 

He coo;d have done this things for machiavellian reasons, but a number of folks who are well known) UVA prof and governmental commentator Larry Sabato or )qould likely kill him if he stepped out of line) like the father of the girl/woman he dates have gone on record for his over-arching character.

 

His low-character transgression was punished and he apologized so I for one and willing to trust but verify as a fan and simply will be less forgiving if he fouls up again and he owes no further explanantion IMHO even though he has inserted himself into the public sphere as an NFL player.

 

However, I do differentiate between Butler as a person who I think does not deserve additional grief and who owes us no explanation from the corporation known as the Buffalo Bills.

 

They are in  the public sphere big time, and I think since they set the standard that they were going to get high character guys, the corporation owes its customers an explanation about how drafting a man suspended for a low-character act fits with their marketing promise.

 

Though I think Butler owes no additional apology or explanation than the apology he already made accompanying his admission of screwing up and his suspension by UVA, I think the corporation known as the Buffalo Bills does owe its customers an exaplanation of its thinking and how this squares with their previous words.

 

The good thing for the Bills is that I think they have a credible explanation for this much in line with what I said above.  However, like many corporations I think they may well hide behind the punishment Butler got and deserved for the cheapshot and the sense he owes no explanation to pretend that the corporation owes no and actually would benefit from being proactive about this issue and explaining how this fit with their marketing promise to their customers.

 

I think the Bills are foolish to confuse the forgiveness Butler deserves because he was punished, apologized and has no past history of idiocy like his cheapshot with the fact I think the Bills set the charcter standard for judging them.  While you and I who are addicted to TSW may know the Butler bsckstory that indicates he deserves at least a trust but verify attitude, i think most fans who remember this or care about it will only see the videotape of the hit or remember it and connect it to Butler.

 

I hope the Bills are smart enough not to try to hide behind Butler having apologized to not fess up to the fact that their promise of getting high character guys does not scan with the videotape of the cheapshot.

 

The Bills do not need to explain for Butler's act, they need to explain for how their self-announced standard is met by a fuller study of the Butler story.

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