C.Biscuit97 Posted May 13, 2006 Posted May 13, 2006 Lately, I've been wondering why the Bills offensive line has been awful since basically the glory days of the 90s. So feeling a little hungover and a little bored (basically killing time before the Sabres game), I wanted to see how other teams built their lines. I picked three teams, so based on the information, try and guess what team (don't cheat and look below ): Team #1 RT 7th round RG Undrafted Free Agent, cut by original team LG UDFA C 5th round, cut by original team LG 1st round LT 3rd round Team #2 RT UDFA RG 5th round C 3rd round LG 3rd round, cut by another team LT 3rd round pick, cut by original team Team #3 RT 4th round RG 5th round C UDFA LG UDFA LT 1st round pick At a quick glance, it seems these teams built o-lines using similar methods. Some of the players were UDFA, so were mid-round picks, some were picked up from other teams, and only 2 were 1st round picks. So you would figure these teams would have similar results. Not really. Team #1: the New England Patriots (boo): RT 7th round (Brandon Gorin, cut by Chargers) RG Undrafted FA (Stephen Neal) C 5th round (Russ Hochstein, cut by Bucs) LG 1st round (Logan Mankins) LT 3rd round (Nick Kaczur) Team #2, your Buffalo Bills: RT Undrafted FA (Jason Peters) RG 5th round (Chris Villarrial) C 3rd round (Melvin Fowler) LG 5th round (Tutan Reyes, cut by Saints) LT 3rd round (Mike Gandy, cut by Bears) Team #3, the Indianapolis Colts: RT 4th round (Ryan Diem) RG 5th round (Jake Scott) C Undrafted FA(Jeff Saturday, cut by Ravens) LG Undrafted FA (Ryan Lilja, cut by Chiefs) LT 1st round Tarik Glenn Granted, this is only a couple of teams. However, these are two really good teams and across the league as a whole, teams don't load their lines with high round picks. We drafted a guy 4th overall and that didn't work for us. So why does ours suck??? I'm just wondering some thoughts from some gurus on this board. Is it coaching (though we are supposed to have one of the best)? Is it scheme (our o-coordinators change like every year)? Another thought I had was how much QBs contributes to the line's problem. JP (in his first year as a starter), Bledsoe, RJ ( ), and Todd Collins aren't known for their fast decision-making. How much blame should they receive? How would Tom Brady or Peyton look behind our line? So if anyone has any answers, please share. Then hopefully we can pass then to the Bills and our line will stop sucking. Thanks for your time. Go Sabres!!!
RJ (not THAT RJ) Posted May 13, 2006 Posted May 13, 2006 Thanks for this info. I have been saying for a long time that there is no magic formula for building an O-line, and this proves it. The sad thing is that the failure of the Bills line is not due to any failure to look for players, but rather in their failure to work out in games. That is unsatisfying to those who want to be able to pinpoint the one mistake, but is a reminder of how much these games are based on intangibles that cannot be automatically predicted.
Nanker Posted May 13, 2006 Posted May 13, 2006 I'd say that Team #2 is bogus. That's not the guys that sucked last year and the year before. In fact the line probably sucked because of the guys that were in there last year and the years before that. Maybe these new guys won't suck nearly as bad (that might not be that hard even). But let's not put up this year's squad and say the suck automatically. That's not true. It can't be. They haven't played a game yet.
Bill from NYC Posted May 13, 2006 Posted May 13, 2006 Thanks for this info. I have been saying for a long time that there is no magic formula for building an O-line, and this proves it. The sad thing is that the failure of the Bills line is not due to any failure to look for players, but rather in their failure to work out in games. That is unsatisfying to those who want to be able to pinpoint the one mistake, but is a reminder of how much these games are based on intangibles that cannot be automatically predicted. 690717[/snapback] While there is no magic formula, looking at the Seahawks, Steelers and Bengals tells us that the closest thing to it is to draft these guys early and often. On Seattle, Jones and Hutch (the best left side in football) were both first round picks. Both OTs on the Bengals were 1st rounders as well, and Steinbach was an early 2nd. The Steelers have taken OGs in the first round in fairly recent drafts, and Smith was an early 2nd. The Bengals will probably not be able to keep their OL intact in 07 due to free agency, but they seem to keep stocking up on these guys to soften the blow. We otoh historically man our line with castoffs, often from poor teams. Until this trend stops, it will be hard for the Bills to win football games.
C.Biscuit97 Posted May 13, 2006 Author Posted May 13, 2006 While there is no magic formula, looking at the Seahawks, Steelers and Bengals tells us that the closest thing to it is to draft these guys early and often. On Seattle, Jones and Hutch (the best left side in football) were both first round picks. Both OTs on the Bengals were 1st rounders as well, and Steinbach was an early 2nd. The Steelers have taken OGs in the first round in fairly recent drafts, and Smith was an early 2nd. The Bengals will probably not be able to keep their OL intact in 07 due to free agency, but they seem to keep stocking up on these guys to soften the blow. We otoh historically man our line with castoffs, often from poor teams. Until this trend stops, it will be hard for the Bills to win football games. 690739[/snapback] That's a fair point. However, the reason I posted the Colts and Pats is to show that teams don't need to draft linemen with high draft picks. How come they can make it work with castoffs and undrafted free agents?
C.Biscuit97 Posted May 13, 2006 Author Posted May 13, 2006 I'd say that Team #2 is bogus. That's not the guys that sucked last year and the year before. In fact the line probably sucked because of the guys that were in there last year and the years before that. Maybe these new guys won't suck nearly as bad (that might not be that hard even). But let's not put up this year's squad and say the suck automatically. That's not true. It can't be. They haven't played a game yet. 690736[/snapback] Yeah, you're right. I probably should have used Teague (a seveth rounder) and Anderson (UDFA). And I don't necessarily think the Bills line will suck this year. But my question is how come a team like Indy can take 2 UDFAs at center and left guard and make them pro bowl caliber players? What are the Bills doing wrong?
Chilly Posted May 13, 2006 Posted May 13, 2006 Yeah, you're right. I probably should have used Teague (a seveth rounder) and Anderson (UDFA). And I don't necessarily think the Bills line will suck this year. But my question is how come a team like Indy can take 2 UDFAs at center and left guard and make them pro bowl caliber players? What are the Bills doing wrong? 690749[/snapback] Well, seeing as how they were both cut by other teams before signing with the Colts, it could be that other teams discovered the gems, and the Colts just made strong moves in free agency.
RJ (not THAT RJ) Posted May 13, 2006 Posted May 13, 2006 While there is no magic formula, looking at the Seahawks, Steelers and Bengals tells us that the closest thing to it is to draft these guys early and often. On Seattle, Jones and Hutch (the best left side in football) were both first round picks. Both OTs on the Bengals were 1st rounders as well, and Steinbach was an early 2nd. The Steelers have taken OGs in the first round in fairly recent drafts, and Smith was an early 2nd. The Bengals will probably not be able to keep their OL intact in 07 due to free agency, but they seem to keep stocking up on these guys to soften the blow. We otoh historically man our line with castoffs, often from poor teams. Until this trend stops, it will be hard for the Bills to win football games. 690739[/snapback] I respect your football knowledge, Bill, but even your example reinforces my original point. You mention three playoff teams that have drafted OL (though I am not sure from your post whether their drafts were so very different from the last five Buffalo drafts) but the original post mentioned two other playoff teams that were built very much like the Bills. Glancing at all the playoff O-lines, I am struck by the great variety of strategies used to build good teams, and am also struck by how much fortuna is involved. I am sure that people who know more about these things can make marginal improvements, but on the whole I am not convinced that there is any single formula that can be applied with universal success. Heck, Bill Belichek should be sending flowers to the Jets the rest of his life; without that hard hit on Bledsoe, Tom Brady would still be an unknown. (I know, I know, that last example is not OL-related, but it is a good example of the role of the unpredictable and unforeseeable in sports success.)
The Jokeman Posted May 13, 2006 Posted May 13, 2006 Granted, this is only a couple of teams. However, these are two really good teams and across the league as a whole, teams don't load their lines with high round picks. We drafted a guy 4th overall and that didn't work for us. So why does ours suck??? I'm just wondering some thoughts from some gurus on this board. Is it coaching (though we are supposed to have one of the best)? Is it scheme (our o-coordinators change like every year)? Another thought I had was how much QBs contributes to the line's problem. JP (in his first year as a starter), Bledsoe, RJ ( ), and Todd Collins aren't known for their fast decision-making. How much blame should they receive? How would Tom Brady or Peyton look behind our line? So if anyone has any answers, please share. Then hopefully we can pass then to the Bills and our line will stop sucking. Thanks for your time. Go Sabres!!! 690713[/snapback] You put up some good analysis but you missed a few key points. 1) Fowler was traded by the Browns for Nate Dorsey, so while it wasn't a cut but it was an indication the Browns feeling that Fowler wasn't worth keeping around. 2) the Pats' starting center is Dan Koppen (5th Round pick of Pats) not Hockstein. So while he was picked in the same Round he wasn't cut/traded by his original team which to me indicates he has a little more value then a higher round pick that was let go by his original team (see Gandy and/or Fowler).
Typical TBD Guy Posted May 13, 2006 Posted May 13, 2006 Lately, I've been wondering why the Bills offensive line has been awful since basically the glory days of the 90s. 690713[/snapback] To quote some wise TBD'er, "it's not rocket surgery" : 1. The QB: you need to have a mentally sound QB, in terms of field vision, pressure awareness, and the like....a guy who knows when to get rid of the ball and where to move within the pocket in order to buy more time...because no matter how good your OL is, it WILL eventually break down...since Kelly left, we have not had such a QB (Clodd Tollins, Robbery J, Duh Bledslow, and now Mr. "I scored a 14 on the Wonderlic because I had to pee" Losman). 2. Raw talent: generally speaking, the earlier you draft OL the better the talent (see Bill from NYC's above post). Also, the more often you draft OL the more likely you are to find talent. Simple stojan, right? Well, take a glance back at past Buffalo drafts and you'll find that since the days of Butler, we have not come even close to comprehending this simple theory (I posted a much more detailed analysis on Buffalo's OL draft history many months ago). 3. Coaching turnover: not only regarding the change in coaches, but the change in offensive systems as well. Here's where Buffalo's offense has really fallen apart since the Super Bowl days (and where Ralph Wilson certainly deserves a share of the blame for the OL's failures). In the TD-era alone, we were a West Coast offense followed by a run n' shoot-style Gilbride offense followed by a bull sh--/gadget Coach Meathead offense in the relatively short span of 5 seasons. Kinda hard for your linemen to master their blocking assignments when you have such coaching and playbook instability, eh? 4. Player turnover: when you've found a group of players that work well together, you stick with them. This particular theory hasn't been tested much in Buffalo since guys like Wolford left, because - quite frankly - we haven't found much of anything that HAS worked . But as a good rule of thumb, the longer two or more quality linemen play next to each other, the more effective they can become. So when you find quality linemen, you keep them (and keep them healthy). Sometimes you may even want to (gasp!) overpay to keep them. I hope Marv, for example, will enable The Jason Peters Project to remain at RT in Buffalo for a long time. 5. Not related, but important nevertheless: GO SABRES!!!!!!
Rico Posted May 13, 2006 Posted May 13, 2006 ^^^^ Also, the Pats starting LT is Matt Light, a 2nd-rounder from THE Purdue University. Biggest of many reasons why this OL sucked (note the positive past tense ) is MW and his contract.... killed this team on so many different levels.
UConn James Posted May 14, 2006 Posted May 14, 2006 ^^^^Also, the Pats starting LT is Matt Light, a 2nd-rounder from THE Purdue University. Biggest of many reasons why this OL sucked (note the positive past tense ) is MW and his contract.... killed this team on so many different levels. 690777[/snapback] Purdue doesn't stress the THE as their trademark thingie. Their claim to fame is having put more people into space than Eli Lilly. On topic, Kelso pretty much nailed it. But in the Coaching Turnover category, I would add that we've had to work with the remnants of those several different philosophies in amalgum. I think generally, it's called 'bad fit.' It's now up to Jauron et al. to try to make some kind of combination that will work.* *Not running the Meathead trickery shovel pass to Shelton from the 1 should help.
Rico Posted May 14, 2006 Posted May 14, 2006 Purdue doesn't stress the THE as their trademark thingie. 690795[/snapback] They don't... I do.
/dev/null Posted May 14, 2006 Posted May 14, 2006 *Not running the Meathead trickery shovel pass to Shelton from the 1 should help. 690795[/snapback] a trick shovel pass to the FB from the 1 yard line? Brilliant!
obie_wan Posted May 14, 2006 Posted May 14, 2006 That's a fair point. However, the reason I posted the Colts and Pats is to show that teams don't need to draft linemen with high draft picks. How come they can make it work with castoffs and undrafted free agents? 690748[/snapback] because they implement a system which has been consistently applied for a long time. The Bills have a jeckyl and hide group constantly whipsawed between a power run group having to defend a statute. The GM got bulldozers when they needed dancing bears. It will help tremendously now that there the coaching staff and the front office are on the same page as to what types of OL personnel are needed to run the offense. Sounds like the line will need to be quicker with the ability to trap and pull which will provide more flexibilty over the pound it between the tackles approach from last year.
jarthur31 Posted May 14, 2006 Posted May 14, 2006 You need more than just talent to win; you need heart. We haven't had that since those SB runs. They knew they were better than their opponents across the line even if they were smaller. They took it to em and it showed.
WhitnerIsAGod Posted May 14, 2006 Posted May 14, 2006 A couple more points. The Bills have hired some totally incompetent position coaches in recent years via cronyism. Gregg Williams' bringing in his childhood pal as OL was one of those supreme blunders. The Bills now have two OL coaches and both have long coaching resumes. The last few years, the plan seemed to be any square peg fits any round hole. The general pecking order along a line is C, LT, LG, RT, RG. The Bills seemed to favor picking up free agents that were RGs (i.e. the worst lineman on the unit), from teams with bad offenses, and promoting those guys to more demanding positions. Furthermore, since the offensive system and philosophy was changed more frequently than most posters on this board change their underwear, the right players for the system were never around. Sign some finesse pass blockers and the coaches would decide to try the wishbone. Sign a couple road graders with zero pass blocking skills and the coaches decide to take a 7 step drop and try to complete bombs every play. What a complete cluster.
Pyrite Gal Posted May 14, 2006 Posted May 14, 2006 A couple more points. The Bills have hired some totally incompetent position coaches in recent years via cronyism. Gregg Williams' bringing in his childhood pal as OL was one of those supreme blunders. The Bills now have two OL coaches and both have long coaching resumes. 690975[/snapback] Even this indictment does not give full justice to just how not-ready for the NFL GW was (I he was hired by TD because TD was confident he could stop GW from ) running him out of town like Cowher did) and though these coachimg errprs were not the whole story of our OL problems since the early 90s it is a big part of it that must be mentioned to make any OL analysis rational. 1. Vinklarek was not only hired it seems mainly due to his being a lifelong friend of GW, but even worse he had never ever been an OL position coach before. 2. When even GW realized that Vinky was not cutting it he replaced him with Pat Ruel who had all of 1 year's experience as am OL coach at Detroit. This the crew working under the quickly fired Sheppard and good ol Kevin Killdrive that actually oversaw the selection and training of MW. If you want to blame the player fine, but this does not free Vinky of blame since he assessed him. While one could argue and I wouldn;t oppose the idea that MW was never gonna play well for anyone, this does not eradicate the fact that a player wheter great or bad is going to be worse with Vinky than with another coach.
BuffOrange Posted May 14, 2006 Posted May 14, 2006 We otoh historically man our line with castoffs, often from poor teams. "Well this guy can't be any worse than _!" How many times have we all been bitten in the ass by that old standby rationale?
BuffOrange Posted May 14, 2006 Posted May 14, 2006 You need more than just talent to win; you need heart. We haven't had that since those SB runs. They knew they were better than their opponents across the line even if they were smaller. They took it to em and it showed. 690885[/snapback] The Super Bowl teams didn't try harder than Wade's.
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