DC Tom Posted October 1, 2004 Share Posted October 1, 2004 Touche. I did the college thing b/c my knees wouldn't last 10 minutes in Basic Training. My brothers have, tho. And they both say that while the Iraqis and other -istan country's denizens aren't the brightest bulbs in the bunch, it's a combo of training and OTJE. You need to put asses on the street, just like on the football field. 51772[/snapback] Ditto here. I was actually actively recruited...until they found out I'm bipolar. But that's a fine line to toe...you need the presence on the street, but if you put them on TOO early, they're not as effective, get killed easier...then morale drops, recruitment goes down, field experience as a whole drops because your best guys are getting killed or leaving, and you get stuck in a vicious cycle of putting increasingly untrained men under increasingly inexperienced leadership for increasingly worse results. I don't know paramilitary police training and organization either...but I know that much about it. You can train forever...but even the best-trained man in the world isn't a veteran until he's been blooded. But if you don't train enough, no one survives long enough to be veteran. I also know that a classic insurgency tactic is to infiltrate the national security organs of a country...because part of the basic essence of insurgency is fighting a country from within. Throw THAT into the equation... I'm not disagreeing that it needs to happen, and even needs to happen more rapidly than it is. But it's frankly going to take just as long as it takes...it doesn't lend itself to a simple "we can do x for y" reduction, no matter which candidate's spouting off on it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted October 1, 2004 Share Posted October 1, 2004 Joe Biden said tonight that there is not one, not one, fully trained Iraqi policeman in the entire country. He is a pretty respectable source, even for a Democrat, and he wasn't just making it up, it was part of a discussion he had with people responsible for these kinds of things. You know, the ones actually in Iraq training them. It is a 24 week course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John from Riverside Posted October 1, 2004 Share Posted October 1, 2004 If you are a Democrat, you may have seen an angry Bush. What I saw was a Bush who seemed to be thinking "This backwoods moron is so full of crap and has no idea what we're up against as a country. And he still has people who listen to him." 51753[/snapback] Yeah.....that was what I was thinking as well Paco.... I mean....I will admit Kerry talks a good game....but I couldn't help but feel that was full of stevestojan most of the time..... I dont know man....there is just something about him..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John from Riverside Posted October 1, 2004 Share Posted October 1, 2004 Touche. I did the college thing b/c my knees wouldn't last 10 minutes in Basic Training. My brothers have, tho. And they both say that while the Iraqis and other -istan country's denizens aren't the brightest bulbs in the bunch, it's a combo of training and OTJE. You need to put asses on the street, just like on the football field. 51772[/snapback] Speaking as someone who HAS seen it done.....you cannot just put "bodies" out there untrained..... Unless you plan on putting more bodybags to go with them....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_BiB_ Posted October 1, 2004 Share Posted October 1, 2004 And all W did is kept saying flip flop. Kerry hit hard with why wont you admit you made mistakes mister president? I am not yet decided but as a moderate republican who had his first chance to listen and see Kerry in action I must say I will investigate this plan for Iraq. 51717[/snapback] Woahhhhhhh.....slippery slope ahead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnTheRocks Posted October 1, 2004 Share Posted October 1, 2004 Joe Biden said 51787[/snapback] well lets just fold up the tents and go home...it must be true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
/dev/null Posted October 1, 2004 Share Posted October 1, 2004 imo, kerry won. maybe because i had lower expectations coming in for him than bush (who i didn't have very high expectations of either) however it doesn't change the way i'm gonna vote. kerry isn't even a thought in my mind, i'm between bush and badnarik (libertarian). either way it won't affect the election one bit as i'm in a state (virginia) that usually lands in the republican category Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UConn James Posted October 1, 2004 Share Posted October 1, 2004 Speaking as someone who HAS seen it done.....you cannot just put "bodies" out there untrained..... Unless you plan on putting more bodybags to go with them....... 51804[/snapback] Yep, all the money we put into each American soldier for training, equipment, etc., and a lot of them are coming home in bodybags too. Point being that when you're a sitting duck target, no amount of training is going to be overwhelmingly effective. It's a matter of skill, luck and wrong time-wrong place. Why is the training 24 weeks, when Judicial Marshal training here in CT is 2 weeks? State Police Training takes about 6 months here, but that's for an elite group. Iraq doesn't need an elite group right now. When you're bleeding heavily, that first bandage isn't going to look too good, so you use absorbant pads, not the high-tech non-stick pads. Granted that the Iraqis being trained aren't nearly as educated (then again, high schools here graduate kids with a 60 average.... And I've seen that done). Think about all the Rent-a-Cops we've got as security in this country, because at this popint, that's what you've gotta use. You may not like how it sounds, but OTJE is the only way you really learn anything, and yeah, guys are going to die. That's a fact of this war and something that should have been FULLY realized before we went in rather than Rumsfeld counting his beans. Now that it's on, the mess has to be cleaned up, and that can't happen w/ this administration continually trying to put square pegs into round holes. When all you've got is Ross Tucker, you've gotta use Ross Tucker. (And to his credit, he looked pretty good out there last season, and got better as it went along). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VABills Posted October 1, 2004 Share Posted October 1, 2004 Yep, all the money we put into each American soldier for training, equipment, etc., and a lot of them are coming home in bodybags too. Point being that when you're a sitting duck target, no amount of training is going to be overwhelmingly effective. It's a matter of skill, luck and wrong time-wrong place. 51866[/snapback] That's a load of crap. Ask anyone who knows, Jessica Lynch and crew should have been brought up on charges of neglect. There weapons jammed because they were dirty, and that group didn't know really how to fire their weapons. Basic Markmanship is barely tought in the Army any more. The only ones who train with them in the army are the real grunts, the rest never even see a rifle after bootcamp. That is a failure from the last admin and probably even before where it wa cut back costs, and saving 25 cents per round on all those people was a big savings. BTW, basic Marine training is about 15 weeks now, with another 30 days for basic ITS. Then you get your real MOS training. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich in Ohio Posted October 1, 2004 Share Posted October 1, 2004 And all W did is kept saying flip flop. Kerry hit hard with why wont you admit you made mistakes mister president? I am not yet decided but as a moderate republican who had his first chance to listen and see Kerry in action I must say I will investigate this plan for Iraq. 51717[/snapback] Please back up the tivo or vcr pal. The word flip flop never came out of the presidents mouth. But this does prove how effective what he said was because you and the other nitwits in the crowd knew exactly what he was talking about, without even having to say it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tux of Borg Posted October 1, 2004 Share Posted October 1, 2004 That's a load of crap. Ask anyone who knows, Jessica Lynch and crew should have been brought up on charges of neglect. There weapons jammed because they were dirty, and that group didn't know really how to fire their weapons. Basic Markmanship is barely tought in the Army any more. The only ones who train with them in the army are the real grunts, the rest never even see a rifle after bootcamp. That is a failure from the last admin and probably even before where it wa cut back costs, and saving 25 cents per round on all those people was a big savings.BTW, basic Marine training is about 15 weeks now, with another 30 days for basic ITS. Then you get your real MOS training. 51877[/snapback] Don't even get me started on that subject. They use to make the support soldiers do a short road march by the grunt barracks. They would have on a baby ruck sack with their weapon mounted on top, instead of at the ready where it should be. We'd sit there and watch them start to fall out after the 1 mile mark. Whenever a conflict like kosovo came up, the same soldiers were crying into the TV cameras saying I don't want to die. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_BiB_ Posted October 1, 2004 Share Posted October 1, 2004 Don't even get me started on that subject. They use to make the support soldiers do a short road march by the grunt barracks. They would have on a baby ruck sack with their weapon mounted on top, instead of at the ready where it should be. We'd sit there and watch them start to fall out after the 1 mile mark. Whenever a conflict like kosovo came up, the same soldiers were crying into the TV cameras saying I don't want to die. 51970[/snapback] I was always so po'd when they made us leave our airconditioners and tv sets behind when we went camping. And those nasty old rifles get in the way of everything. And the food? It took a good two days to get a decent filet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheeseburger_in_paradise Posted October 1, 2004 Share Posted October 1, 2004 Kerry did seem to have more composure. First dabate, a Kerry win. And he probably beat the poit spread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_BiB_ Posted October 1, 2004 Share Posted October 1, 2004 Why dont you at least spend the time to go to web site as directed. Here are the four points of the plan http://www.johnkerry.com/issues/national_security/iraq.html Also by not just handing contracts to Haliburton and Cheneys pocket will get others in the game 51733[/snapback] The problem, Spidey-or the desired idea, is that not to many are going to go past looking up the four points. They are very misleading. Halliburton is a general contractor. Most of the actual work is being done by Iraqi subcontractors. The reconstruction effort is going at an excellent pace. The trouble is, the bad guys blow up stuff just about as soon as it's built. Kerry is way out in left field on NATO. One, it's not even within their charter and two, the only folks of note that aren't playing are France and Germany, who are not playing because it doesn't serve their national interest. The train up of Iraqi forces isn't going to go any faster under Kerry than it does Bush. Much of the training is being done by Jordan, and they can only cycle so much so fast. The biggest point, is that there are four bites that say "This is what we need to do" whatever. There is nothing there at ALL about how to do them. All Kerry's "points" are just that. There is no, absolutely no substance. Bush was pis$ed last night because Kerry out and out lied, on several issues. Either that-or he is so horribly uninformed as to be dangerous. Pick your poison. He wants to be President, and has little if any idea what to do once he gets there. He's pandering to the masses, most of whom will not do their homework. Bush may have many faults-but Kerry is a hedonist with what Kerry wants as a priority. GW Bush honestly wants what is best for the country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted October 2, 2004 Share Posted October 2, 2004 The problem, Spidey-or the desired idea, is that not to many are going to go past looking up the four points. They are very misleading. Halliburton is a general contractor. Most of the actual work is being done by Iraqi subcontractors. The reconstruction effort is going at an excellent pace. The trouble is, the bad guys blow up stuff just about as soon as it's built. Kerry is way out in left field on NATO. One, it's not even within their charter and two, the only folks of note that aren't playing are France and Germany, who are not playing because it doesn't serve their national interest. The train up of Iraqi forces isn't going to go any faster under Kerry than it does Bush. Much of the training is being done by Jordan, and they can only cycle so much so fast. The biggest point, is that there are four bites that say "This is what we need to do" whatever. There is nothing there at ALL about how to do them. All Kerry's "points" are just that. There is no, absolutely no substance. Bush was pis$ed last night because Kerry out and out lied, on several issues. Either that-or he is so horribly uninformed as to be dangerous. Pick your poison. He wants to be President, and has little if any idea what to do once he gets there. He's pandering to the masses, most of whom will not do their homework. Bush may have many faults-but Kerry is a hedonist with what Kerry wants as a priority. GW Bush honestly wants what is best for the country. 52712[/snapback] You know the response you're going to get to that post is along the lines of "Kerry's a presidential candidate who gets briefed on this stuff. I think he knows more about the subject than you do." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paco Posted October 2, 2004 Share Posted October 2, 2004 You know the response you're going to get to that post is along the lines of "Kerry's a presidential candidate who gets briefed on this stuff. I think he knows more about the subject than you do." 53165[/snapback] I think, too, that Kerry supporters don't really support Kerry as much as they hate Bush. So they refuse to actually SEE how off base Kerry is because they're not really looking at Kerry. They're just aping his message while they B word about Bush and Halliburton and DUIs and cokeheads and the such. It's probably scarier now than it has ever been. The more I read up on what Kerry wants to do, the more holes I see. And the more I look into his plan to have bi-lateral talks with NK (this issue stood out to me as THE BIGGEST difference coming out of the debate, aside from Kerry showing he'd never truly do anything pre-emptively), the more you see how America's position in the world as one of strength will quickly become one of pandering. Again. It's getting to the point where I find myself seeking out "fence walkers" because everything about Kerry indicates he will bring back the pussification of America while taking money out of the pocket of the very people who need it to advance civilization. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_BiB_ Posted October 2, 2004 Share Posted October 2, 2004 You know the response you're going to get to that post is along the lines of "Kerry's a presidential candidate who gets briefed on this stuff. I think he knows more about the subject than you do." 53165[/snapback] Yeah, when asked to provide a link to the source I'd have to give up my own email. From what I've heard come out of Kerry so far, on these particular issues, I'm pretty convinced your cats know more about this stuff than Kerry does. What's sad, is I really at this point believe that he does know more about it, and is deliberately twisting and lieing just to get the seat. He can't produce what he's advertising, and we will end up in serious stevestojan for it. How do I know he's lieing fellow boarders? "BECAUSE I HELP WRITE THE FRIGGEN PLANS AND OPERATIONS ORDERS FOR THE STUFF HE SAYS DOESN'T EXIST!" But, I'm sure his campaign website is much more accurate and informative. I don't think anyone can come up with a more clear cut example of what that guy is all about than I just did, and I only say that to make a point. I'm equally certain that the Kerryites here will completely skip over this and go back to 4 points, and consider me an uninformed lunatic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paco Posted October 2, 2004 Share Posted October 2, 2004 Yeah, when asked to provide a link to the source I'd have to give up my own email. From what I've heard come out of Kerry so far, on these particular issues, I'm pretty convinced your cats know more about this stuff than Kerry does. What's sad, is I really at this point believe that he does know more about it, and is deliberately twisting and lieing just to get the seat. He can't produce what he's advertising, and we will end up in serious stevestojan for it. How do I know he's lieing fellow boarders? "BECAUSE I HELP WRITE THE FRIGGEN PLANS AND OPERATIONS ORDERS FOR THE STUFF HE SAYS DOESN'T EXIST!" But, I'm sure his campaign website is much more accurate and informative. I don't think anyone can come up with a more clear cut example of what that guy is all about than I just did, and I only say that to make a point. I'm equally certain that the Kerryites here will completely skip over this and go back to 4 points, and consider me an uninformed lunatic. 53197[/snapback] ' That would be uninformed lunatic asssshole, wouldn't it.? Like I said above, it's not that they love Kerry. They hate Bush. They're not even paying ATTENTION to Kerry because if they were, and had any level of objectivity whatsoever, they'd realize how bad of a president he would actually make. But I suspect these are the same people who think Shane Matthews couldn't possibly be worse than Drew. Be careful what you wish for... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted October 2, 2004 Share Posted October 2, 2004 I'm equally certain that the Kerryites here will completely skip over this and go back to 4 points, and consider me an uninformed lunatic. 53197[/snapback] I thought we always skip the 4th point. As to you being an uninformed lunatic, that could be a thread of its own.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_BiB_ Posted October 2, 2004 Share Posted October 2, 2004 I thought we always skip the 4th point. As to you being an uninformed lunatic, that could be a thread of its own.... 53253[/snapback] That's Daddy Rabbit Uninformed Lunatic As$-hole to you, sonny. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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