ajzepp Posted May 9, 2006 Share Posted May 9, 2006 I'm not going to be stupid to argue about what you believe...but it's entirely possible that the universe and us "just happend randomly". Frankly, there's no law that forbids it, and systems that exhibit randomness at a micro level often exhibit very complex organized behavior at a macro level - best example I can think of off the top of my head is water coming out of a faucet under pressure. Or even better: the stock market. In fact, even presuming the universe is nothing more than a random quantum vacuum fluctuation, the probability of that "random" even happening eventually becomes a virtual certainty if you wait long enough. Ergo, the "creation" of the universe was not a random event, but a certainty through virtue of being random. Holy Paradox, Batman! And, in the spirit of my physics education: The Proof of the Existence of God from the above lemmas is left as an exercise for the student. 687331[/snapback] Of course it's possible....but that's the whole point in both cases, actually. From a Christian standpoint, we are not called to 'know'. We are called to have faith in things unseen. Faith is the tool by which we grow and learn - the driving force in a Christian walk. If we KNEW that God existed, it would obviously preclude the need for faith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beerball Posted May 9, 2006 Share Posted May 9, 2006 But that's what a singularity is. A point. So that's the point. The singularity. The point's the singularity, because the singularity's a point. Seriously, though...if I could explain THAT on a message board, people wouldn't have won Nobel Prizes for it. Best place to start learning about it would be...I don't know, try black holes. Then Hawking radiation. Then maybe look up quantum vacuum energy. 687335[/snapback] OK, so everything started in a single point. ajz wants to know how the point got there (least I think he does), and I want to know how big the point was. Truely interested...one point begat the universe? Perhaps after the collapse of an earlier universe? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HopsGuy Posted May 9, 2006 Share Posted May 9, 2006 2nd Law of Thermodynamics...the principle known as "entropy". But you're misusing: the principle is that systems tend towards their lowest-energy ground state over time, and in doing so become disorganized. The caveats to which being: it doesn't necessarily hold true on all scales (time and distance), and you can put energy into the system and organize it. Ergo, even though the universe as a whole tends towards decreasing organization, isolated pockets of it - for example, a planet - can become more organized in the short term (keeping in mind that billions of years is short term on the scale of the universe), particularly with an influx of energy (e.g. solar radiation). 687298[/snapback] When folding my laundry and putting it in the dresser, I often sigh as I remind myself that I'm contributing the heat-death of the universe. Maybe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chef Jim Posted May 9, 2006 Share Posted May 9, 2006 Amen! oh, wait, is that ironic? 687269[/snapback] No moronic. Can anyone give me evidence of the existence of God. And watching a child being born doesn't cut it with me because there are also children born with terrible diseases and die very early. I'll wait. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mead107 Posted May 9, 2006 Share Posted May 9, 2006 who had sex with what to start all this mess on earth ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajzepp Posted May 9, 2006 Share Posted May 9, 2006 OK, so everything started in a single point. ajz wants to know how the point got there (least I think he does), and I want to know how big the point was. 687342[/snapback] LOL....you want to know how big it was, eh? I think the origin of the universe is bigger than man's capacity to understand. Just my opinion, of course.....but it's not like the whole "the earth is flat" type of thing. I'm sure there are, and will continue to be, theories galore.....but I think the question is ultimately too big for man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crackur Posted May 9, 2006 Share Posted May 9, 2006 I'm not going to be stupid to argue about what you believe...but it's entirely possible that the universe and us "just happend randomly". In fact, even presuming the universe is nothing more than a random quantum vacuum fluctuation, the probability of that "random" even happening eventually becomes a virtual certainty if you wait long enough. A monkey throwing crap is "random" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajzepp Posted May 9, 2006 Share Posted May 9, 2006 No moronic. Can anyone give me evidence of the existence of God. And watching a child being born doesn't cut it with me because there are also children born with terrible diseases and die very early. I'll wait. 687345[/snapback] See my post above regarding faith vs. knowing/evidence. And just because you or I don't understand somethign doesn't mean there isn't a purpose behind it or a reason for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chef Jim Posted May 9, 2006 Share Posted May 9, 2006 who had sex with what to start all this mess on earth ? 687347[/snapback] Aliens and gorillas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PromoTheRobot Posted May 9, 2006 Share Posted May 9, 2006 That theory is actually an old one, called the "Oscillating Universe," and it was pretty much tossed out the window when it was discovered that the universe is expanding at an increasing rate. (The oscillating theory suggested that expansion would slow, and then contract, resulting in another big bang, kind of like a paddleball.) The latest theory I had heard is this universe is but one of an endless number of emerging universes coming out of one of the 7 other physical dimensions that we cannot see, but are inferred by mathimatical formula. Apparently forces in these extra dimensions collide, causing new universes to bubble forth. Since these collisions are not smooth and uniform, they result in an uneven distribution of energy and matter, that eventually bring form to galaxies, stars, and planets. They may also act like a cosmic slot machine, creating a different set of physical laws in each new universe. As Mr. Spock used to say....facinating. PTR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chef Jim Posted May 9, 2006 Share Posted May 9, 2006 See my post above regarding faith vs. knowing/evidence. And just because you or I don't understand somethign doesn't mean there isn't a purpose behind it or a reason for it. 687351[/snapback] Ok then, thanks for your "proof" there is a God. So what is our purpose? I'm my world we are just a blue/green marble flying through space with no reason other than our own personal enjoyment. Oh, and to watch the Sabres of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crap Throwing Monkey Posted May 9, 2006 Share Posted May 9, 2006 A monkey throwing crap is "random" 687350[/snapback] Not if I have a target. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crap Throwing Monkey Posted May 9, 2006 Share Posted May 9, 2006 Of course it's possible....but that's the whole point in both cases, actually. From a Christian standpoint, we are not called to 'know'. We are called to have faith in things unseen. Faith is the tool by which we grow and learn - the driving force in a Christian walk. If we KNEW that God existed, it would obviously preclude the need for faith. 687338[/snapback] Actually, a proof of the existence of God does follow out of what I posted above. And, as I said, the proof is left to the student. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crap Throwing Monkey Posted May 9, 2006 Share Posted May 9, 2006 See my post above regarding faith vs. knowing/evidence. And just because you or I don't understand somethign doesn't mean there isn't a purpose behind it or a reason for it. 687351[/snapback] Conversely, just because something happens doesn't mean there's a purpose behind it or a reason for it. Believe it or not, sometimes sh-- really does just happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Like A Mofo Posted May 9, 2006 Share Posted May 9, 2006 No moronic. Can anyone give me evidence of the existence of God. And watching a child being born doesn't cut it with me because there are also children born with terrible diseases and die very early. I'll wait. 687345[/snapback] How does one explain things like emotion and the ability to think, communicate....the ability to dream in your sleep....the fact that the Earth is in a spot, just the right spot from the sun so life can be here on Earth...how can science just create feelings? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crap Throwing Monkey Posted May 9, 2006 Share Posted May 9, 2006 OK, so everything started in a single point. ajz wants to know how the point got there (least I think he does), and I want to know how big the point was. Truely interested...one point begat the universe? Perhaps after the collapse of an earlier universe? 687342[/snapback] How big's a point? It's a point. Seriously. A "point" (or "singularity", if you like - the two terms are virtually synonymous in this context. Virtually, not literally) by definition has no physical size. Like I said, look up "black holes" (and don't come back to me talking about the "event horizon" being the size of a black hole. That's a boundary of effect, not a physical size.) Next question would be "how can the universe fit into a single point?" Look up quantum electrodynamics, specifically "virtual particles", the infrared and ultraviolet divergences and self-interaction of the electron. That won't answer the question...but it'll give you some idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajzepp Posted May 9, 2006 Share Posted May 9, 2006 Ok then, thanks for your "proof" there is a God. So what is our purpose? I'm my world we are just a blue/green marble flying through space with no reason other than our own personal enjoyment. Oh, and to watch the Sabres of course. 687354[/snapback] Faith in God isn't something that I or anyone else can give you. It's an individual choice. Through my own experience, one who truly endeavors to become close to God finds that opportunity available to them at some point. Whether or not you or anyone else decides to take those steps is completely up to you and them. I wish I could just show you something or tell you something and all of a sudden you'd know that God existed. But that's not possible. I can sit down with anyone and tell them of my experiences, without any sort of embellishment whatsoever, and maybe help inspire them to look into things on their own. But beyond that I think it's an individual thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crap Throwing Monkey Posted May 9, 2006 Share Posted May 9, 2006 ....the fact that the Earth is in a spot, just the right spot from the sun so life can be here on Earth...687368[/snapback] Because if it wasn't, we wouldn't be here to attribute some mystical quality to it. That's actually the main difference between science and religion: science says we are here because the Earth's in the right place. Religion says the Earth's in the right place because we are here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gavin in Va Beach Posted May 9, 2006 Share Posted May 9, 2006 Ok then, thanks for your "proof" there is a God. So what is our purpose? I'm my world we are just a blue/green marble flying through space with no reason other than our own personal enjoyment. Oh, and to watch the Sabres of course. 687354[/snapback] Neither can you provide evidence for the non-existence of 'God'. We'll never really know until we die and maybe not even then... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beerball Posted May 9, 2006 Share Posted May 9, 2006 How big's a point? It's a point. Seriously. A "point" (or "singularity", if you like - the two terms are virtually synonymous in this context. Virtually, not literally) by definition has no physical size. Like I said, look up "black holes" (and don't come back to me talking about the "event horizon" being the size of a black hole. That's a boundary of effect, not a physical size.) Next question would be "how can the universe fit into a single point?" Look up quantum electrodynamics, specifically "virtual particles", the infrared and ultraviolet divergences and self-interaction of the electron. That won't answer the question...but it'll give you some idea. 687369[/snapback] I feel as if I've been given a cease and desist order. I'll just ask the wall for help...tell everyone it's part of my homework project... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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