stuckincincy Posted May 10, 2006 Share Posted May 10, 2006 This situation does not really mirror the situation with the Bengals. Cinncinati drafted Palmer first overall which is a spot where the player is expected to start immediately. Buffalo drafted Losman further down and was expected to sit for a bit. buffalo was coming off a season where they just barely made the playoffs by one game under the leadership of Bledsoe. They outright released Bledsoe cause they said he did not even have the chance to compete for the starting job, he would be the backup and JP would start. They were being told that they would be a playoff team with or without Drew. JP sat out almost an entire year with an injury so he did not have the advantage of getting to practice all year behind bledsoe and with the team. He was pretty much a first year player last year. Palmer had the chance to work behind a veteran in practice and watch an entire season and learn behind him and work with him in practice. The Bengals were always being considered a team on the rise or rebuilding so most of the players weren't going into the season being told how they were expected to make the playoffs, so starting a second year QB who had been tutored and worked behind a veteran for a full year they said he was ready. 688075[/snapback] There was another difference with Palmer. When he started in '04 (and a rough start - 2 and 5, and there was some fan chirping), it was with an offensive plan with his talents in mind. When he was injured in game 12, and Kitna came in, it was quite noticible. Kitna finished the season 2 and 1. He did not look good in the Bflo game, and the season-ending win was against a PHI club that emptied their bench. Sandwiched in was a 1 point squeaker at home against the NYG. In the '05 playoff game against PGH, Kitna struggled. He certainly had time to pass, but mostly completed passes to departed WR Kevin Walter - who worked with Kitna on the 2nd team all season long. It didn't help that Marvin & Co. gave up on the run in the 2nd half. Tsk tsk. Kitna is a decent qb, but he as well as Palmer benefit by the tailoring of the offense to their particular skills. What I'm saying is that while a qb competition has merit, when the dust settles, put in the skill players and offensive sets that tend towards your starter's strengths. And have a fully functional Plan B on the shelf that is more in line with your back-up's talents if he must play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of BiB Posted May 10, 2006 Author Share Posted May 10, 2006 Well, if my "magic mod capabilities" included splitting threads I would... 688095[/snapback] I'm just busting (which you know). Being one of the premier thread hijackers, I have little room to B word. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Gross Posted May 10, 2006 Share Posted May 10, 2006 There was another difference with Palmer.... 688099[/snapback] He knows there are differences in Palmer. He told me in this exact thread that the Palmer situation was completely different when I brought Palmer up. Yet all of a sudden the Losman situation reminds him of the Palmer situation... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
34-78-83 Posted May 10, 2006 Share Posted May 10, 2006 LA, re: the comeback game... (mind you, I'm not discussing the point about Losman and starting experience in the NFL) 1- The Oilers didn't/couldn't run the ball with any consistency because they didn't really even utilize fullbacks or TE's in their run and shoot offense. They only ran single back delays and draws out of the spread formation. It's one of the major downfalls of that offense. 2- The Bills made the defensive adjustment in the 2nd half when Corey went back to his base 3-4 and put the best guys back on the filed to match up with the run and shoot, as opposed to a LB and a bunch of scrub Db's. 3- Reich was as cool and accurate in that game as I have ever seen a QB be under that much pressure. I'd be hard pressed to say it's merely a coincidence that he holds the record for both the biggest comeback in NFL history AND the biggest comeback in NCAA history with Maryland. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apuszczalowski Posted May 10, 2006 Share Posted May 10, 2006 Interesting post. But since I've decided to stop talking about Losman on this thread, I'll respond with something else. Something . . . related to the original topic of the thread. One of the things I like about these off-season changes is the increased depth at defensive tackle. We've added Triplett, McCargo, and Kyle Williams. With that kind of depth, I'm hoping the defensive tackles won't wear down as easily, and will be able to provide a good pass rush in the 4th quarter. Bill Walsh once said that a deep defensive line was the key to winning games. That dramatic Super Bowl win was a good example. The Bengals had the ball, the lead, and a chance to ice the win with a first down or two. But the 49ers had good depth on the defensive line. The good play by that line led to a Bengals 3-and-out; after which Montana marched his team down the field. I'd still like to see the Bills have more good players at defensive end besides just Schobel. But at least the defensive tackle position seems to be solid. 688093[/snapback] I was writing my reply when you posted about how you won't talk about Losman anymore in this thread. As per this post, I too like the depth at DT I hear tehy will be running the DT's on a rotation, which should keep them from wearing down as the game goes on and keep the freshest guy in the game. It will keep the opposing offences from wearing us down and running on us alot later in the game. make them throw the ball and have our CB's and Safeties making plays too, instead of having to come up and try helping block the run because our old and slow Dt's couldn't keep up late in the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orton's Arm Posted May 10, 2006 Share Posted May 10, 2006 He knows there are differences in Palmer. He told me in this exact thread that the Palmer situation was completely different when I brought Palmer up. Yet all of a sudden the Losman situation reminds him of the Palmer situation... 688104[/snapback] You're trying to tempt me into making another Losman post on this thread, aren't you? I mean, this is the kind of post I'd love to respond to. But instead, I'll make another comment about the Bills' defense. Even in 2004 when the defense was good--overrated but good--I noticed the Patriots had a lot of success with throwing short, quick passes, and with running the ball to the outside. The improved secondary should help trim back the success the Patriots will have with those short passes; and maybe Whitner's speed will be an asset in shutting down those outside running lanes. Maybe the defensive scheme would help too, in that it places a premium on speed and swarming; things that are generally good at shutting down the outside run. Maybe Belichick will respond by running the ball straight at our rather smallish DTs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of BiB Posted May 10, 2006 Author Share Posted May 10, 2006 I've been trying to find a site that breaks things down more than the "pure" statistics. Might have to build a d-base or at least a spreadsheet for 2006. A cursory check of past game statistics show quite a few third + 7 or worse getting converted. My other peeve, but related is the amount of first downs given up through penalty. Another cursory check shows the Bills to be near the bottom of that category as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beerball Posted May 10, 2006 Share Posted May 10, 2006 Mommy!!! They're doing it again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orton's Arm Posted May 10, 2006 Share Posted May 10, 2006 My other peeve, but related is the amount of first downs given up through penalty. Another cursory check shows the Bills to be near the bottom of that category as well. I can buy that. When I think of defensive penalties, I think of London Fletcher. Not that all the calls against him were justified, but I still feel he could have done a better job of avoiding many of those calls. With rookies like Whitner and McCargo on defense, and Fletcher still here, I'm not sure how much progress we'll be able to make in cutting back those penalties. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
obie_wan Posted May 10, 2006 Share Posted May 10, 2006 There was another difference with Palmer. When he started in '04 (and a rough start - 2 and 5, and there was some fan chirping), it was with an offensive plan with his talents in mind. When he was injured in game 12, and Kitna came in, it was quite noticible. Kitna finished the season 2 and 1. He did not look good in the Bflo game, and the season-ending win was against a PHI club that emptied their bench. Sandwiched in was a 1 point squeaker at home against the NYG. In the '05 playoff game against PGH, Kitna struggled. He certainly had time to pass, but mostly completed passes to departed WR Kevin Walter - who worked with Kitna on the 2nd team all season long. It didn't help that Marvin & Co. gave up on the run in the 2nd half. Tsk tsk. Kitna is a decent qb, but he as well as Palmer benefit by the tailoring of the offense to their particular skills. What I'm saying is that while a qb competition has merit, when the dust settles, put in the skill players and offensive sets that tend towards your starter's strengths. And have a fully functional Plan B on the shelf that is more in line with your back-up's talents if he must play. 688099[/snapback] The stupidity of the situation is that Teflon Tom brought in a backup in Holcomb who has the exact opposite attributres of Losman. There is no easy way to flip-flop between the two. When they went to Holcomb, they sealed JP's fate on the bench. If Nall and JP show enough, Holcomb could be dumped outright because he can't run the same offense designed for Nall and JP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apuszczalowski Posted May 10, 2006 Share Posted May 10, 2006 My other peeve, but related is the amount of first downs given up through penalty. Another cursory check shows the Bills to be near the bottom of that category as well. 688130[/snapback] I think alot of the problems that teams have with penalties stem from coaching, and getting the team prepared for games. Teams with good coaches that prepare their teams well don't give up stupid penalties and penalties that cost drives and games like buffalo did last year Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orton's Arm Posted May 10, 2006 Share Posted May 10, 2006 I think alot of the problems that teams have with penalties stem from coaching, and getting the team prepared for games. Teams with good coaches that prepare their teams well don't give up stupid penalties and penalties that cost drives and games like buffalo did last year 688193[/snapback] I can believe that last year's coaching staff was a big part of the penalty problem. And the excessive blitzing problem. And a lot of other problems. While Fewell is completely unknown, I hope he's able to come up with a less predictable, more effective defense that's able to put the Patriots in their place. The other 14 games are important too. But unless the defense can do well against the Patriots, I'll always consider it second-tier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuckincincy Posted May 10, 2006 Share Posted May 10, 2006 The stupidity of the situation is that Teflon Tom brought in a backup in Holcomb who has the exact opposite attributres of Losman. There is no easy way to flip-flop between the two. When they went to Holcomb, they sealed JP's fate on the bench. If Nall and JP show enough, Holcomb could be dumped outright because he can't run the same offense designed for Nall and JP. 688188[/snapback] Yes- if you have a system in place for one qb's skills, difficulties can occur with a back-up. The Bills, in my view, didn't do their homework after they dubbed JPL as starter. The B'gals staff certainly didn't distinguish themselves when they had to turn to Kitna, either. I'd be a little circumspect about tossing Holcomb into the ditch, though. Whatever one may think about his skills, he does bring savvy to the table. Sometimes that can get you by, or at least let you live to fight again another day. Sometimes not - flip the coin. The thing is, work your offensive plan designed for your starter, but if he is out, go to your plan B, and never, never abandon the run game, even if you are behind big time. If you do that, you throw away your advantage on offense, i.e., your ability to initiate the play and cause a defense to react. If the running game is forgotton, you lose your offensive edge and the defense has been given a road map to defeat you. It can be as simple as the defensive linemen eying the OL's stance and foot placement, and correctly guessing - here comes yet another pass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sisyphean Bills Posted May 11, 2006 Share Posted May 11, 2006 Every time I read the subject of this thread I have to LOL. 3rd down? And long? Please, ho-heh-ha, stop! The madness, ho-ha-hee. My seams are, ha-hwa-ho-hee, ripping... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of BiB Posted May 11, 2006 Author Share Posted May 11, 2006 Every time I read the subject of this thread I have to LOL. 3rd down? And long? Please, ho-heh-ha, stop! The madness, ho-ha-hee. My seams are, ha-hwa-ho-hee, ripping... 688865[/snapback] Suck a serious wet juicy fart from my very manly hairy ass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sisyphean Bills Posted May 11, 2006 Share Posted May 11, 2006 Suck a serious wet juicy fart from my very manly hairy ass. 688872[/snapback] Touchy, touchy! (Seriously, I hope you are right. Sucks to see a couple good defensive plays thrown down the toilet over and over and over and over ...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dibs Posted May 11, 2006 Share Posted May 11, 2006 Mommy!!! They're doing it again. 688131[/snapback] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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