Orton's Arm Posted May 9, 2006 Posted May 9, 2006 But when three of them ARE, and they are all for TDs, and they all take place in the first quarter, against Miami, and the team still loses, then you tell me...exactly HOW does Holcomb offer us a better chance? 687497[/snapback] Only two of those were deep strikes to Evans. The third was where the Bills' drive began already in FG range. There was nothing wrong with Losman on those deep balls to Evans, because throwing deep balls to Evans is one of the two things Losman does well. But the things Losman did badly also affected the outcome of the game. Near the Miami goal line, Losman was given a nice, safe pass play to execute. But--surprise!--Losman's pass was very inaccurate, and got intercepted. His defenders saw this as a playcalling problem, not as a problem with Losman himself. And that's typical of how a lot of posters react to Losman. On the rare occassion when he does something well, they give him the credit. But when he messes up, these posters blame anyone and everyone other than him.
34-78-83 Posted May 9, 2006 Posted May 9, 2006 Only two of those were deep strikes to Evans. The third was where the Bills' drive began already in FG range. There was nothing wrong with Losman on those deep balls to Evans, because throwing deep balls to Evans is one of the two things Losman does well. But the things Losman did badly also affected the outcome of the game. Near the Miami goal line, Losman was given a nice, safe pass play to execute. But--surprise!--Losman's pass was very inaccurate, and got intercepted. His defenders saw this as a playcalling problem, not as a problem with Losman himself. And that's typical of how a lot of posters react to Losman. On the rare occassion when he does something well, they give him the credit. But when he messes up, these posters blame anyone and everyone other than him. 687518[/snapback] The part it seems you are missing is that most reasonable football fans understand that there are approximately 2 quarterbacks in the history of the NFL that showed consistency and success in their 1st , let's say 20 games started. People realize that JP made a ton of mistakes last season. They also see flashes of a wealth of ability and skill, and realize that they need to see a much larger body of work before he is written off. Hell, even Ryan Leaf got a ton of free passes early in his career.
Kelly the Dog Posted May 9, 2006 Posted May 9, 2006 The part it seems you are missing is that most reasonable football fans understand that there are approximately 2 quarterbacks in the history of the NFL that showed consistency and success in their 1st , let's say 20 games started. People realize that JP made a ton of mistakes last season. They also see flashes of a wealth of ability and skill, and realize that they need to see a much larger body of work before he is written off. Hell, even Ryan Leaf got a ton of free passes early in his career. 687529[/snapback] The third touchdown was a better pass than the first two long ones, too. He gunned the ball right on target between two defenders for a TD. It was a great pass.
Orton's Arm Posted May 9, 2006 Posted May 9, 2006 The part it seems you are missing is that most reasonable football fans understand that there are approximately 2 quarterbacks in the history of the NFL that showed consistency and success in their 1st , let's say 20 games started. People realize that JP made a ton of mistakes last season. They also see flashes of a wealth of ability and skill, and realize that they need to see a much larger body of work before he is written off. Hell, even Ryan Leaf got a ton of free passes early in his career. 687529[/snapback] Losman had his whole first year to learn the playbook, study film, and adjust to the NFL. Rookie QBs typically struggle largely due to their lack of familiarity with these things. But Losman wasn't a rookie. Speaking of Ryan Leaf, I remember him leading the Chargers to a comeback win over the Bills. Just because you see flashes from the new guy doesn't mean you'll ever see anything more.
IDBillzFan Posted May 9, 2006 Posted May 9, 2006 Losman had his whole first year to learn the playbook, study film, and adjust to the NFL. Rookie QBs typically struggle largely due to their lack of familiarity with these things. But Losman wasn't a rookie.687543[/snapback] Look, I've never played professional sports, but how the hell do you cram "learn the playbook" and "study film" with "adjust to the NFL"?? That's like saying, "You'll be a good chef once you buy a piece of steak, put it on the grill and get a degree from CIA." Even a non-high-school-coach like me knows the game needs to slow down for most players to be effective, and the game doesn't slow down from the sidelines. He needs more than eight or nine games...hell, he needs more than a whole season...to get the game to where he is comfortable with it. And that's assuming he has a good line in front of him, which he does not. You seem to think "adjust to the NFL" comes in a can from a guy who's also carrying around cups of Gatorade. I appreciate your love for Holcomb, man, but you could use a dose of reality in your expectations.
34-78-83 Posted May 9, 2006 Posted May 9, 2006 Losman had his whole first year to learn the playbook, study film, and adjust to the NFL. Rookie QBs typically struggle largely due to their lack of familiarity with these things. But Losman wasn't a rookie. Speaking of Ryan Leaf, I remember him leading the Chargers to a comeback win over the Bills. Just because you see flashes from the new guy doesn't mean you'll ever see anything more. 687543[/snapback] True, it doesn't mean that you will, but if you don't put him in there and give him a string of games to start , you'll never find out.
Rubes Posted May 9, 2006 Posted May 9, 2006 A 4 yard gain sure is better than a sack. 687466[/snapback] Except when it's frigging 4th and 7.
Dan Gross Posted May 9, 2006 Posted May 9, 2006 Losman had his whole first year to learn the playbook, study film, and adjust to the NFL. Rookie QBs typically struggle largely due to their lack of familiarity with these things. But Losman wasn't a rookie. Speaking of Ryan Leaf, I remember him leading the Chargers to a comeback win over the Bills. Just because you see flashes from the new guy doesn't mean you'll ever see anything more. 687543[/snapback] So I guess you would have dumped Carson Palmer after his first 8 starts....Part of adjusting to the NFL is actually getting on the field and playing the damn game.
Orton's Arm Posted May 9, 2006 Posted May 9, 2006 Look, I've never played professional sports, but how the hell do you cram "learn the playbook" and "study film" with "adjust to the NFL"?? That's like saying, "You'll be a good chef once you buy a piece of steak, put it on the grill and get a degree from CIA." Adjusting to the NFL is a pretty broad concept. Some of the adjustment happens in practices, minicamps, film rooms, meetings, coaching, the preseason, that sort of thing. Losman had two off-seasons of this, plus his rookie year. All this, before he set foot on the field to play Houston. Then there's the adjustment process which happens through gameday experience only. But how much regular season experience did Frank Reich have before he led the Bills to that comeback win over Houston? Over time, those meetings, practices, and preseasons were enough for Reich to figure out which end was up; and that was with probably less regular season experience than Losman's had. Nor was Reich an isolated example. Look at the way Chad Pennington was able to quickly produce for his team after having spent significant time sitting and learning.
IDBillzFan Posted May 9, 2006 Posted May 9, 2006 But how much regular season experience did Frank Reich have before he led the Bills to that comeback win over Houston?687571[/snapback] Exactly how much experience do you think is needed to pick apart a prevent defense being executed by a bunch of guys who were convinced the game was over, coupled with a couple of botched calls by the officiating staff? We didn't win that game. Houston lost it. Bad example. Please try again.
Orton's Arm Posted May 9, 2006 Posted May 9, 2006 So I guess you would have dumped Carson Palmer after his first 8 starts....Part of adjusting to the NFL is actually getting on the field and playing the damn game. 687559[/snapback] There's a world of difference between Carson Palmer's situation and Losman's. Palmer was generally regarded as worthy of a very high draft choice. But in Losman's case, most GMs and observers felt there was a big three at QB: Manning, Rivers, and Roethlisberger. Losman was more physically gifted than any of the big three, so these GMs obviously saw something else about him that wasn't as good. TD, however, decided he didn't agree with the consensus view; and that to him it was a big four. TD's track record for QB decisions is abysmal; so his endorsement carries little weight. Whereas you might be patient with a QB selected in the first round by Ron Wolf, you might be a little less patient with a physically gifted but rather inaccurate QB chosen by the same GM that drafted Kordell Stewart.
Orton's Arm Posted May 9, 2006 Posted May 9, 2006 Exactly how much experience do you think is needed to pick apart a prevent defense being executed by a bunch of guys who were convinced the game was over, coupled with a couple of botched calls by the officiating staff? We didn't win that game. Houston lost it. Bad example. Please try again. 687578[/snapback] Sorry about that. Even Ryan Leaf could have led the Bills to the biggest comeback in NFL history. It's something that's done on a regular basis. Likewise, Leaf could have led the Bills to a playoff win against the Steelers in the following week, just like Reich did.
stuckincincy Posted May 9, 2006 Posted May 9, 2006 Adjusting to the NFL is a pretty broad concept. Some of the adjustment happens in practices, minicamps, film rooms, meetings, coaching, the preseason, that sort of thing. Losman had two off-seasons of this, plus his rookie year. All this, before he set foot on the field to play Houston. Then there's the adjustment process which happens through gameday experience only. 687571[/snapback] Dancing 'tween the raindrops, now?
IDBillzFan Posted May 9, 2006 Posted May 9, 2006 Sorry about that. Even Ryan Leaf could have led the Bills to the biggest comeback in NFL history. It's something that's done on a regular basis. Likewise, Leaf could have led the Bills to a playoff win against the Steelers in the following week, just like Reich did. 687602[/snapback] If instant replay existed for that game, it would not be the greatest comeback in the NFL history. It would be a good losing effort by a bunch of guys in Buffalo. I appreciate your skidding this your way, but Reich was simply not that good of a quarterback. He was only good enough, and sometimes that wins games. Just ask Todd Marinovich.
Orton's Arm Posted May 9, 2006 Posted May 9, 2006 If instant replay existed for that game, it would not be the greatest comeback in the NFL history. It would be a good losing effort by a bunch of guys in Buffalo. I appreciate your skidding this your way, but Reich was simply not that good of a quarterback. He was only good enough, and sometimes that wins games. Just ask Todd Marinovich. 687612[/snapback] I've always considered that comeback game to be the finest hour of Buffalo sports. It seems like you're belittling that game in a misguided effort to defend Losman.
Lori Posted May 9, 2006 Posted May 9, 2006 But how much regular season experience did Frank Reich have before he led the Bills to that comeback win over Houston? Over time, those meetings, practices, and preseasons were enough for Reich to figure out which end was up; and that was with probably less regular season experience than Losman's had. Nor was Reich an isolated example. Look at the way Chad Pennington was able to quickly produce for his team after having spent significant time sitting and learning. 687571[/snapback] 8 seasons, 6 starts, 62 total games, according to the 1993 media guide (stats through 1992 regular season). Reich celebrated his 31st birthday a month before the Houston game. Whether he turns out to be the next Kelly or the next Leaf -- or as is far more likely, somewhere in between -- I'm not interested in waiting that long for Losman.
Orton's Arm Posted May 9, 2006 Posted May 9, 2006 8 seasons, 6 starts, 62 total games, according to the 1993 media guide (stats through 1992 regular season). Reich celebrated his 31st birthday a month before the Houston game. Whether he turns out to be the next Kelly or the next Leaf -- or as is far more likely, somewhere in between -- I'm not interested in waiting that long for Losman. 687625[/snapback] Thanks for the informative response, Lori. I'm guessing most of those 62 total games were garbage time. But between the six starts and whatever non-garbage time Reich received as a backup, he probably had at least as much experience as Losman does today. That weakens this particular example a little, but I feel my main point still stands: quarterbacks can learn on the practice field and in the film room. Maybe Reich isn't the best example of this, because he went into that Houston game with more playing time than I'd realized. So I'll give a different example. Like Losman, Tom Brady spent his rookie year on the bench, and got a chance to play in his second year. Unlike Losman, Tom Brady clearly outplayed Drew Bledsoe. I'm not saying every quarterback should be expected to play at the same level as Tom Brady. My point is that Brady's play in his first full year as a starter was in the same category as his subsequent accomplishments. He didn't need to inflict multiple years of poor play as the starter upon his team before showing what he was capable of.
IDBillzFan Posted May 9, 2006 Posted May 9, 2006 I've always considered that comeback game to be the finest hour of Buffalo sports. It seems like you're belittling that game in a misguided effort to defend Losman. 687620[/snapback] Yes, and it seems like you're a lawyer who has enough billable hours this month. Do you honestly believe I am belittling The Comeback Game because I will admit aloud that we got lucky? I seem to remember Houston firing their entire offensive coaching staff after that game. Why? Because they did such a lousy job calling the defensive plays against us? Here's a little history lesson for you: In the first half of that game, Warren Moon threw 19 for 22 for 218 yards and no interceptions. On our opening drive of the third quarter, McDowell picks Reich and returns it to increase their lead to 32 points. With me so far? Okay. After the Davis run at the one, Christie recovers his suicide onside kick and four plays later we score on a pass that Beebe needed to run out of bounds, then back in bounds, to catch. We scored again on our next possession on a pass to Andre Reed and now we're down by 11. On the FIRST play of Houston's VERY NEXT possession, do you remember what happened? Henry Jones picks off a Warren Moon pass. A PASS! WHAT THE HELL IS HE DOING PASSING with an 11-point lead, a frenzied stadium, a jacked up Bills team and a ticking freakin' clock????? In fact, Moon threw another 28 PASSES in a half when he had a 32-point lead!! Wait! Maybe Frank Reich TOLD THEM TO PASS because he learned so much sitting on the bench. Oh, sorry. Didn't mean to belittle the game. But the only thing getting belittled is your concept that because Frank Reich won that game, a quarterback doesn't need experience on the field to win.
Dan Gross Posted May 10, 2006 Posted May 10, 2006 There's a world of difference between Carson Palmer's situation and Losman's. Palmer was generally regarded as worthy of a very high draft choice. But in Losman's case, most GMs and observers felt there was a big three at QB: Manning, Rivers, and Roethlisberger. Losman was more physically gifted than any of the big three, so these GMs obviously saw something else about him that wasn't as good. 687597[/snapback] Cincinnati had a whole string of highly regarded top 10 draft picks that didn't turn out for them. What makes Carson Palmer different, other than the hair you are trying to split here in comparing with Losman? Heck, Ryan Leaf was highly regarded around NFL circles before he was drafted. Many considered the choice between him and Manning as a "toss-up." This is not about popularity, it's about playing football, which you need to let a guy take his lumps and do for more than a couple games before casting your stones. Ryan Leaf's successor Drew Brees took a whole couple years to develop, to the point where San Diego had already drafted Brees' successor.
Orton's Arm Posted May 10, 2006 Posted May 10, 2006 Here's a little history lesson for you: I'll grant Houston's playcalling could have been better in that game. It was, after all, Kevin Gilbride calling their plays. But even with that said, I still feel you have to give the Bills credit for playing lights-out in the second half. That credit goes first and foremost to Frank Reich.
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