justnzane Posted May 5, 2006 Posted May 5, 2006 Anyone know if that $20 mil signing bonus number is really one of the highest in the league - before Whitner and Clements? Wow. Where did that money go? 684703[/snapback] FYI- Clements signed a franchise tender, which has no bonus involved in it. Thus, MArv could trade him, without any cap penalties.
KOKBILLS Posted May 6, 2006 Posted May 6, 2006 I don't take it personally. But... it's kind of odd that a man who presided over 5 years w/o the playoffs, 2 head coaches, three OCs and how many starting QBs gets more benefit of the doubt than someone who has only been in charge for one off-season. 684816[/snapback] And not to mention the Person in charge now is already one of the most respected People in Pro Football... It's funny how ESPN-TD absolutely refuses to recognize the obvious...I guess the last 5 Years were just Our imagination...
MDH Posted May 6, 2006 Posted May 6, 2006 Funny hearing that from you. For the umpteenth time, it's not the criticism, but the ball washing of Donoahoe that comes with it. Raiders & Lions were worse brown creek as Bills were, yet you don't hear peep how they passed on Leinert. If you're going to slam the 2006 draft, please don't hold the guy who presided over the disaster in 2002 as the standard bearer. 684748[/snapback] You've got to be kidding. Perhaps it isn't the criticizing for you but for the majority here it is. Just go back the past few years. Whenever anybody in the national media predicts the Bills to finish in last place or says they have a bad draft or criticizes the Bills in any way there are multiple threads calling the writer a moron, and idiot, a fat slob...or a combination of the bunch (some posters actually get creative which makes it a worthwhile read). Of course posters love to point out that these writers are never held accountable for their opinions (and I agree, they should be) but the same posters are never accountable for their’s. They lambaste these writers for criticizing the team but when the year is over and the Bills have missed the playoffs (again) I don't see anybody saying, "wow, Peter King was right, we do suck!" In fact, they line up to rip into the same writers next year when they predict the Bills will suck once again. Bottom line, it is the criticizing for most here though there are a few posters that just enjoy taking shots at anybody and everybody no matter what.
ax4782 Posted May 6, 2006 Posted May 6, 2006 The problem is that LP wasn't saying that we suck. He's saying that Donahoe was doing a great job and that Buffalo, essentially, ran him off unfairly and that he was blamed when it wasn't his fault. It's easy for people to criticize, that is true. However, let me suggest that these opinions of the so called experts saying we're going to suck, before we've played a game, is unwarranted. For them to say that our draft picks were a reach before they have played a game or been to camp is unwarranted. They know far less than the men who made the decisions in the draft room. Lastly, I don't see the sports writers coming out and saying they were wrong when they say a team is going to suck and the team does well. They say, "oh, what a shock; they were supposed to suck." That's ass covering to the extreme, so before we get all kissy kissy about who doesn't take accountability for what they say in the media or on this site, lets take a look at both sides. GO SABRES!!!!
krazykat Posted May 6, 2006 Posted May 6, 2006 According to our count, 32 of the 42 players selected by former Bills general manager Tom Donahoe are still in the league.[/b] 684601[/snapback] Of course he fails to mention how many of them are starting. Who cares if they're all backups. Also, LP is wrong more than not by a wide margin. That's not a good omen for our draft.
WhitnerIsAGod Posted May 6, 2006 Posted May 6, 2006 Saying most of Donahoe's picks are still in the league is meaningful only in the sense that Buffalo was a bottom feeding team and thus was annually overhauling its roster and keeping its youngest players. Two head coaching changes, an assistant coaching staff revolving door, major purges, tinker-toys experiments gone mad, an absolute circus at the QB position... what's not to like?
folz Posted May 6, 2006 Posted May 6, 2006 The theory now is that it takes 3 years to really judge a draft class. Which means we can now judge TDs first 3 drafts (2001-2003) 2001: Still with team: 1/21 CB Nate Clements, who wants out but is locked into a Franchise Tag 2/46 DE Aaron Schobel, probably Donahoe's best selection as GM 2001: No longer with team: 2/58 RB Travis Henry, Tennesse 3/76 DT Ron Edwards, Kansas City 3/95 OT Jonas Jennings, SF 4/110 LB Brandon Spoon, Out of League/Injuried 5/144 OL Marques Sullivan, Out of League 6/178 S Tony Driver, ? 6/195 TE Dan O'Leary, ? 6/196 CB Jimmy Williams, ? 7/214 WR Reggie Germany, Out of League 7/238 DT Tyrone Robertson, ? 2001 Results: 2 out of 12 still with team. Both players still with team are solid starters, however one may not be a Bill much longer 2002: Still with team: 2/36 WR Josh Reed, backup WR 2/61 DE Ryan Denney, rotational DL selected over WR Antwaan Randel'El 3/97 S Coy Wire, Soon to be cut 6/176 CB Kevin Thomas, backup DB 2002: No longer with Bills 1/4 T Mike Williams, Jacskonville 5/139 DT Justin Bannan, Baltimore 7/215 G Mike Pucillo, ? 7/249 WR Rodney Wright, ? 7/251 RB Jarrett Ferguson, ? 7/260 LB Dominique Stevenson, ? 2002 Results: 4/10 still with team. Those 4 aren't much more than backups and one player no longer with team is one of of the biggest draft busts in team history 2003: Still with team 1/23 RB Willis McGahee, starter 2/48 DE Chris Kelsay, rotational DE 3/94 LB Angelo Crowell, backup, ST, and possible future starter 4/111 CB Terrence McGee, all around stud 4/127 WR Sam Aiken, backup 6/187 DT Lauvale Sape, fodder 7/228 LB Mario Haggan, ST player 2003: No longer with team 5/151 G Ben Sobieski, rehabbing with Jonas in SF 2003 Results: 7/8 A better than average RB, an average CB with excellent return skills, a couple backups and ST players, and one potential future starter So in 3 years TD managed to find 13 out of 30 players worth keeping. Of those 13, only 4 were starting caliber (Clements, Schobel, McGahee, and McGee) 684679[/snapback] I liked the above post and pretty much agreed...His final analysis seems to be for players still on the team, but in fairness I would go by his words "players worth keeping" and add T Henry and J Jennings as players worth keeping and as starting caliber, even though they're no longer with the team. Travis obviously wasn't one of the premiere backs in the league while in Buffalo, but you can't discount what he did on the field for this team...he was definitely starting caliber. Then I saw Bob in STL's post that said, "Free agency has a lot to do with keeping players and it would be ineteresting to know how many players a team like New england has kept from those same three years." So I thought I'd do a little digging... Patriots Drafts (player info according to NFL.com and Patriots.com) 2001 1st (round) Richard Seymour DT (starter w/Patriots) 2nd Matt Light G (starter w/Patriots) 3rd Brock Williams DB (Out of the League (OL) 4th Kenyatta Jones G (OL) 4th Jabari Holloway TE (OL) 5th Hakim Akbar DB (OL) 6th Arther Love TE (OL) 6th Leonard Myers DB (OL) 7th Owen Pochman K (OL) 7th TJ Turnwe LB (OL) 2002 1st Daniel Graham TE (starter w/Patriots) 2nd Deion Branch WR (starter w/Patriots) 4th Rohan Davey QB (ARZ) 7th Antwine Womack RB (OL) 7th David Givens (TEN) 2003 1st Ty Warren DT (starter w/Patriots) 2nd Eugene Wilson DB (starter w/Patriots) 4th Dan Klecko DT (still w/Patriots) 4th Asante Samuel DB (starter w/Patriots) 5th Dan Koppen C (starter w/Patriots) 6th Kliff Kingsbury QB (NYJ) 7th Spencer Nead TE (OL) 7th Tully Banta-Cain LB (starter w/Patriots) 7th Ethan Kelley NT (CLE) So TD's 3-year record: 30 picks, 22 still in the league (73.33%), 14 worth keeping (46.66%), 6 starting caliber (including Henry and Jennings) (20%). Patriots 3-year record: 24 picks, 14 still in the league (58.33%), 11 worth keeping (if you count Givens in that) (45.83%), 10 starting caliber (again if you include Givens who started the majority of games the last two years) (41.66%) So Len P. can congratulate TD all he wants for still having players in the league because TD does have 15% more players still in the league from those three drafts than does NE... But I'd take NE's almost 42% starting caliber players over TD's paltry 20% any day...and that's with NE having 5 fewer 1st day picks in those three drafts. Maybe some of the sports writers/broadcasters really like TD and that's ok, but they do seem overly anxious to criticize the Bills (be it for TD or RW and the CBA)...and they didn't live the last five years as a Bills fan... We Bills fans are starting to see an organization with a plan to rebuild a football team, not just create pre-season excitement and revenue...it may take the media a while to see that...whether the new plan works or not, no one knows yet...but I for one have a feeling that we're crawling slowly out of the cellar that TD's decisions and drafts put us in.
Matt in KC Posted May 6, 2006 Posted May 6, 2006 I liked the above post and pretty much agreed...His final analysis seems to be for players still on the team, but in fairness I would go by his words "players worth keeping" and add T Henry and J Jennings as players worth keeping and as starting caliber, even though they're no longer with the team. Travis obviously wasn't one of the premiere backs in the league while in Buffalo, but you can't discount what he did on the field for this team...he was definitely starting caliber. Then I saw Bob in STL's post that said, "Free agency has a lot to do with keeping players and it would be ineteresting to know how many players a team like New england has kept from those same three years." So I thought I'd do a little digging... Patriots Drafts (player info according to NFL.com and Patriots.com) 2001 1st (round) Richard Seymour DT (starter w/Patriots) 2nd Matt Light G (starter w/Patriots) 3rd Brock Williams DB (Out of the League (OL) 4th Kenyatta Jones G (OL) 4th Jabari Holloway TE (OL) 5th Hakim Akbar DB (OL) 6th Arther Love TE (OL) 6th Leonard Myers DB (OL) 7th Owen Pochman K (OL) 7th TJ Turnwe LB (OL) 2002 1st Daniel Graham TE (starter w/Patriots) 2nd Deion Branch WR (starter w/Patriots) 4th Rohan Davey QB (ARZ) 7th Antwine Womack RB (OL) 7th David Givens (TEN) 2003 1st Ty Warren DT (starter w/Patriots) 2nd Eugene Wilson DB (starter w/Patriots) 4th Dan Klecko DT (still w/Patriots) 4th Asante Samuel DB (starter w/Patriots) 5th Dan Koppen C (starter w/Patriots) 6th Kliff Kingsbury QB (NYJ) 7th Spencer Nead TE (OL) 7th Tully Banta-Cain LB (starter w/Patriots) 7th Ethan Kelley NT (CLE) So TD's 3-year record: 30 picks, 22 still in the league (73.33%), 14 worth keeping (46.66%), 6 starting caliber (including Henry and Jennings) (20%). Patriots 3-year record: 24 picks, 14 still in the league (58.33%), 11 worth keeping (if you count Givens in that) (45.83%), 10 starting caliber (again if you include Givens who started the majority of games the last two years) (41.66%) So Len P. can congratulate TD all he wants for still having players in the league because TD does have 15% more players still in the league from those three drafts than does NE... But I'd take NE's almost 42% starting caliber players over TD's paltry 20% any day...and that's with NE having 5 fewer 1st day picks in those three drafts. Maybe some of the sports writers/broadcasters really like TD and that's ok, but they do seem overly anxious to criticize the Bills (be it for TD or RW and the CBA)...and they didn't live the last five years as a Bills fan... We Bills fans are starting to see an organization with a plan to rebuild a football team, not just create pre-season excitement and revenue...it may take the media a while to see that...whether the new plan works or not, no one knows yet...but I for one have a feeling that we're crawling slowly out of the cellar that TD's decisions and drafts put us in. 685190[/snapback] Great first post. Welcome aboard! I like that you added a bit more analysis. Assessing only whether players are still with the team from a draft four or five years ago is of limited value. How long is each player's rookie contract? Also, if TD decided to keep (and start) Mike Williams or Jonus Jennings, this would mean his performance was better? TD's job was selecting players and choosing who to retain. "Still in the league," and "starer on any team" sound like the best proxies for finding talent, but starting on another team is a negative for retaining talent. Obviously it's not this simple. Chosing a better, cheaper FA over someone you drafted is clearly the best choice, and means you're doing your job as GM, doing what needs to be done, even though people will look up your old drafts and conclude you must have missed something. How could he have let Keion Carpenter slip away? TD apparently looked smart in 2004 (When Keion was on IR with a torn ACL) for letting Keion go after the 2001 season, but now looks like he can't retain talent since Keion is a starter on another team. (Yes I know Keion wasn't drafted by TD in 1999). At a macro level it's more valid, but without looking at FA's, I think you have to throw this out the window.
dave mcbride Posted May 6, 2006 Posted May 6, 2006 http://insider.espn.go.com/nfl/insider/col..._len&id=2434393 • In time, the draft class collected by the Buffalo Bills last weekend might be regarded as a bounty, given the team did land some quality prospects. Each of the team's top four choices -- strong safety Donte Whitner, defensive tackle John McCargo, cornerback Ashton Youboty and free safety Ko Simpson -- will play quickly and all could start as rookies. But it was obvious from their decision to use the No. 8 pick on Whitner, a terrific player who rose up draft boards late in the process but whom no one assessed as a top-10 candidate, that general manager Marv Levy was a bit out of his element. Buffalo landed real bargains in snatching Youboty in the third round and Simpson in the fourth, much later than most pundits had them pegged. But the reach for Whitner and the move up late in the round to get McCargo all but offset the later steals. The Bills had opportunities to swap down from the No. 8 hole, to collect some extra choices, but chose not to pull the trigger on any offers. Now they're going to overpay contractually for Whitner and perhaps for McCargo in the first round. And this is not, for a team where owner Ralph Wilson is concerned about revenues, a bunch that has spent wisely in the offseason. The Bills have invested about $20 million in signing bonuses for free agents, one of the highest totals in the league, and really haven't added a true impact player. The reacquisition of wide receiver Peerless Price is arguably one of the most dubious deals of the free-agency period. Take a look at the Buffalo free-agent haul -- safety Matt Bowen, wideouts Price and Andre' Davis, quarterback Craig Nall, offensive linemen Melvin Fowler and Aaron Gibson, defensive tackle Larry Tripplett -- and there isn't much to be excited about. Probably the highest-profile addition is Tripplett, who never lived up to his second-round billing during his Indianapolis tenure. This note for those critical of the past Buffalo football operation: According to our count, 32 of the 42 players selected by former Bills general manager Tom Donahoe are still in the league. 684601[/snapback] unbelievable.
dave mcbride Posted May 6, 2006 Posted May 6, 2006 The Patriots took a shalacking in the offseason, and their best FA signing was Mike Vanderjagt. They had a mediocre draft and yet no one is even thinking about criticizing them. 684815[/snapback] woah there. let's not criticize the pats' draft *until we actually see how the players play*. otherwise, we'd look a lot like crappy espn writers.
dave mcbride Posted May 6, 2006 Posted May 6, 2006 You've got to be kidding. Perhaps it isn't the criticizing for you but for the majority here it is. Just go back the past few years. Whenever anybody in the national media predicts the Bills to finish in last place or says they have a bad draft or criticizes the Bills in any way there are multiple threads calling the writer a moron, and idiot, a fat slob...or a combination of the bunch (some posters actually get creative which makes it a worthwhile read). Of course posters love to point out that these writers are never held accountable for their opinions (and I agree, they should be) but the same posters are never accountable for their’s. They lambaste these writers for criticizing the team but when the year is over and the Bills have missed the playoffs (again) I don't see anybody saying, "wow, Peter King was right, we do suck!" In fact, they line up to rip into the same writers next year when they predict the Bills will suck once again. Bottom line, it is the criticizing for most here though there are a few posters that just enjoy taking shots at anybody and everybody no matter what. 684927[/snapback] i dunno - a *lot* of people here are very good readers of the national media and know that donohoe and pasquarelli go back to high school days in pittsburgh. you should give people a bit more credit. one thing that has gone unmentioned -- as horrible as marv is portrayed by LP, Mortonsen, etc. for ruining the magical little shop presided over by santa donohoe in buffalo, *not one* of them has mentioned that marv -- sacker of cities that he is -- has *kept pretty much the entire donohoe staff (guy, modrak)*, and would have kept mularkey if mularkey wanted to stay.
WhitnerIsAGod Posted May 6, 2006 Posted May 6, 2006 *not one* of them has mentioned that marv -- sacker of cities that he is -- has *kept pretty much the entire donohoe staff (guy, modrak)*, and would have kept mularkey if mularkey wanted to stay. 685293[/snapback] Things worked out for the best. I don't think it would have been worth it to waste a few more years waiting for Mularkey's little light bulb to suddenly come on.
Ray Posted May 6, 2006 Posted May 6, 2006 I'm sure the Rams are impressed with Buffalo's no playoff teams in the past 5 years. They must also be impressed with the two number one draft picks spent on QBs that have yet to pan out. It boggles the mind how Mort and Lenny P still maintain that Tom D is one of the best GM's in the game when he is one of only two GMs not to get their team in the playoffs the past five years. If/when Marv fails to produce a playoff team in 5 years you can criticize him then! And if that's the case he still will not have been worse than Donahoe! One playoff appearance in the next 5 years will eclipse Donahoe's tenure!
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