Len P piles on the Donahoe clusterf-

[GG]

Oh, I despised Donahoe and his mismanagement more than just about everyone here.

 

Only difference between me and most here is that I'm actually requiring RESULTS from marv's regime before I get all excited about it.

684749[/snapback]

 

Good, you're coming around.

 

So, you agree that we should give this draft class a break until they actually hit the green rubber in Orchard Park. No?

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

Good, you're coming around. 

 

So, you agree that we should give this draft class a break until they actually hit the green rubber in Orchard Park.  No?

684751[/snapback]

 

Sort of...My quarrel is not with the players themselves, but rather with the person selecting them. They can't help that they were picked #8 and late in the first.

 

It's on Marv's neck at this point. I'm hoping for the best, but preparing for the worst. It'll be an adventure watching this team run and stop the run this year....again.

[Bob in STL]

A number which includes Coy Wire and Mike Pucillo, in case anyone is counting.

 

Brutal.

684636[/snapback]

 

 

Exactly, TD's drafts were not steller by any means. I just hope the problem was TD and not Modrak.

[ax4782]

That is the most cockamemy story that's been written since the draft ended. His story doesn't even make any sense. If people are praising the Bills in two or three years for having a great draft, then Whitner and McCargo weren't reaches, they were SMART PICKS. I'm so sick of sports writers not pointing out that New England or Miami or Indianapolis didn't pick up a whole list of top-tier FAs and great draft picks. Tom Brady was never expected to win three Super Bowls when he came out of college. He was a SIXTH ROUND PICK!! Pasquerelli used to have some respect in my book, but this article is load of BS.

 

And tell me Len, how many of those 32 are actually starting? How many are warming the bench? Look at those numbers and tell me Donahoe was a draft stud.

[Bob in STL]

The theory now is that it takes 3 years to really judge a draft class.  Which means we can now judge TDs first 3 drafts (2001-2003)

 

2001: Still with team:

1/21 CB Nate Clements, who wants out but is locked into a Franchise Tag

2/46 DE Aaron Schobel, probably Donahoe's best selection as GM

 

2001: No longer with team:

2/58 RB Travis Henry, Tennesse

3/76 DT Ron Edwards, Kansas City

3/95 OT Jonas Jennings, SF

4/110 LB Brandon Spoon, Out of League/Injuried

5/144 OL Marques Sullivan, Out of League

6/178 S Tony Driver, ?

6/195 TE Dan O'Leary, ?

6/196 CB Jimmy Williams, ?

7/214 WR Reggie Germany, Out of League

7/238 DT Tyrone Robertson, ?

 

2001 Results: 2 out of 12 still with team.  Both players still with team are solid starters, however one may not be a Bill much longer

 

2002: Still with team:

2/36 WR Josh Reed, backup WR

2/61 DE Ryan Denney, rotational DL selected over WR Antwaan Randel'El

3/97 S Coy Wire, Soon to be cut

6/176 CB Kevin Thomas, backup DB

 

2002: No longer with Bills

1/4 T Mike Williams, Jacskonville

5/139 DT Justin Bannan, Baltimore

7/215 G Mike Pucillo, ?

7/249 WR Rodney Wright, ?

7/251 RB Jarrett Ferguson, ?

7/260 LB Dominique Stevenson, ?

 

2002 Results: 4/10 still with team.  Those 4 aren't much more than backups and one player no longer with team is one of of the biggest draft busts in team history

 

2003: Still with team

1/23 RB Willis McGahee, starter

2/48 DE Chris Kelsay, rotational DE

3/94 LB Angelo Crowell, backup, ST, and possible future starter

4/111 CB Terrence McGee, all around stud

4/127 WR Sam Aiken, backup

6/187 DT Lauvale Sape, fodder

7/228 LB Mario Haggan, ST player

 

2003: No longer with team

5/151 G Ben Sobieski, rehabbing with Jonas in SF

 

2003 Results: 7/8 A better than average RB, an average CB with excellent return skills, a couple backups and ST players, and one potential future starter

 

So in 3 years TD managed to find 13 out of 30 players worth keeping.  Of those 13, only 4 were starting caliber (Clements, Schobel, McGahee, and McGee)

684679[/snapback]

 

 

Good anlaysis.

 

Free agency has a lot to do with keeping players and it would be ineteresting to know how many players a team like New england has kept from those same three years.

 

I would say that 2001 was a good draft. Clements and Schoebel are very good players. Clements made a pro-bowl. Henry was very good but lacked character. Jennings was a good tackle. Edwards would be OK in a rotation if he could ever stay healthy.

 

I would say that 2002 was extremely poor. Williams is a huge bust, Reed a disappointment. Denney is the best of the class. Unacceptable draft.

 

2003 needs another year to tell but so far it could be TD's best draft. McGahee is solid back who could be a great back with a line and some players around him. McGee is a better than average at CB and is an impact player on ST. Kelsey and Crowell are contributing. Haggen and Aiken are excellent on ST.

[Beerball]

The theory now is that it takes 3 years to really judge a draft class.  Which means we can now judge TDs first 3 drafts (2001-2003)

 

2001: Still with team:

1/21 CB Nate Clements, who wants out but is locked into a Franchise Tag

2/46 DE Aaron Schobel, probably Donahoe's best selection as GM

 

2001: No longer with team:

2/58 RB Travis Henry, Tennesse

3/76 DT Ron Edwards, Kansas City

3/95 OT Jonas Jennings, SF

4/110 LB Brandon Spoon, Out of League/Injuried

5/144 OL Marques Sullivan, Out of League

6/178 S Tony Driver, ?

6/195 TE Dan O'Leary, ?

6/196 CB Jimmy Williams, ?

7/214 WR Reggie Germany, Out of League

7/238 DT Tyrone Robertson, ?

 

2001 Results: 2 out of 12 still with team.  Both players still with team are solid starters, however one may not be a Bill much longer

 

2002: Still with team:

2/36 WR Josh Reed, backup WR

2/61 DE Ryan Denney, rotational DL selected over WR Antwaan Randel'El

3/97 S Coy Wire, Soon to be cut

6/176 CB Kevin Thomas, backup DB

 

2002: No longer with Bills

1/4 T Mike Williams, Jacskonville

5/139 DT Justin Bannan, Baltimore

7/215 G Mike Pucillo, ?

7/249 WR Rodney Wright, ?

7/251 RB Jarrett Ferguson, ?

7/260 LB Dominique Stevenson, ?

 

2002 Results: 4/10 still with team.  Those 4 aren't much more than backups and one player no longer with team is one of of the biggest draft busts in team history

 

2003: Still with team

1/23 RB Willis McGahee, starter

2/48 DE Chris Kelsay, rotational DE

3/94 LB Angelo Crowell, backup, ST, and possible future starter

4/111 CB Terrence McGee, all around stud

4/127 WR Sam Aiken, backup

6/187 DT Lauvale Sape, fodder

7/228 LB Mario Haggan, ST player

 

2003: No longer with team

5/151 G Ben Sobieski, rehabbing with Jonas in SF

 

2003 Results: 7/8 A better than average RB, an average CB with excellent return skills, a couple backups and ST players, and one potential future starter

 

So in 3 years TD managed to find 13 out of 30 players worth keeping.  Of those 13, only 4 were starting caliber (Clements, Schobel, McGahee, and McGee)

684679[/snapback]

Hey Slash...not to pick nits, but didn't Kevin Thomas get cut a few months ago? Seem to remember that he couldn't recover from his knee injury.

[Ennjay]

"The reacquisition of wide receiver Peerless Price is arguably one of the most dubious deals of the free-agency period."

 

 

Why?

 

They got him cheap (for a veteran), they're only looking for a #2 or #3 WR, and if he has nothing left they'll cut him. What's worth being "arguably dubious" about?

[Nanker]

If you think about it for a minute JSP's position is pretty fair. Just because these new guys are the new Bills in town doesn't mean they're HOFers in waiting. We can hope so, but if the reign of terror of Tommy the Terrible has taught Bills fans anything it should be to not get your hopes too high too early. For four of the past five years we psyched ourselves up to a frienzy thinking The Bills were really on the right track and every player was something special and a hidden treasure. Well reality bit us in the ass pretty hard and it finally kicked Old Whitey in the nads too when he ran out of mulligans.

 

Let's at least wait till they put a jersey on before we start building altars to the new gods in town. How many instant heroes were made in recent drafts at OBD only to be tossed on the trash heap through their own sub-par play? Too many for the past Master of Disaster to keep his job. Let's hold our breath at least until the two-a-days are over. This team was left in very bad shape and it all isn't going to be fixed in one draft or in one year for that matter. This team had more holes than a convention of prostitutes in Vegas. Marv can't possibly fill 'em all in one weekend.

[ax4782]

While your second paragraph is right, saying that Pasquerelli's position is fair is ludicrous. The Patriots took a shalacking in the offseason, and their best FA signing was Mike Vanderjagt. They had a mediocre draft and yet no one is even thinking about criticizing them. ESPN's writers seem to take the position that, well, NE didn't do so great but hey its NE, what's not to love. Next Super Bowl champs! This article proves what chumps some of these big time guys are. Let's not give them credit when it isn't due.

[Arkady Renko]

Is Marv your grandaddy or something, gentlemen?

 

It's like if someone criticizes the Bills; draft, they're criticizing YOU.

684733[/snapback]

 

I don't take it personally. But... it's kind of odd that a man who presided over 5 years w/o the playoffs, 2 head coaches, three OCs and how many starting QBs gets more benefit of the doubt than someone who has only been in charge for one off-season.

[Dan Gross]

Let's at least wait till they put a jersey on before we start building altars to the new gods in town.

684803[/snapback]

 

...and let's at least wait until they put on a jersey before running them out of town as well....

 

I don't think people are necessarily building altars in this "defensive attitude," it's more feeling targeted by the media when there are other teams who, by the same standards, "reached" as much if not more than we did...And while it might seem much to me, is Peerless' contract worse than Randel-El (or just about anyone the Skins signed)? Brian Williams? ESPN has decided to bash the Bills' every move, and it isn't necessarily about whether they are "right" or "wrong" as the pointless, deliberate, non-stop bashing...

[/dev/null]

Hey Slash...not to pick nits, but didn't Kevin Thomas get cut a few months ago?  Seem to remember that he couldn't recover from his knee injury.

684772[/snapback]

 

NFL.com still shows him with the Bills, but that could be out of date

http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/302138

[ax4782]

ESPN has decided to bash the Bills' every move, and it isn't necessarily about whether they are "right" or "wrong" as the pointless, deliberate, non-stop bashing...

 

Absolutely right. I think part of this is the fact that many of the sports writers and football afficianados are upset at Mr. Wilson for rattling the bear cage, but that's no reason to pile on Levy and the new kids. I hope the new draft picks come out and dominate this season, just to shut these guys up. LP and company should try evaluating teams and doing so on some reasonable basis. His argument was flimsy and his defense of TD was obnoxiously uneducated.

 

By the way, if TD was such a great manager, why didn't some other team that fire theirs come to snatch him up? Because as everyone who pays attention to what was going on up in Buffalo knows, he was TERRIBLE and that more than half the players who are still playing in the NFL are sitting on a bench somewhere.

[Coach Tuesday]

If you think about it for a minute JSP's position is pretty fair. Just because these new guys are the new Bills in town doesn't mean they're HOFers in waiting. We can hope so, but if the reign of terror of Tommy the Terrible has taught Bills fans anything it should be to not get your hopes too high too early. For four of the past five years we psyched ourselves up to a frienzy thinking The Bills were really on the right track and every player was something special and a hidden treasure. Well reality bit us in the ass pretty hard and it finally kicked Old Whitey in the nads too when he ran out of mulligans.

 

Let's at least wait till they put a jersey on before we start building altars to the new gods in town. How many instant heroes were made in recent drafts at OBD only to be tossed on the trash heap through their own sub-par play? Too many for the past Master of Disaster to keep his job. Let's hold our breath at least until the two-a-days are over. This team was left in very bad shape and it all isn't going to be fixed in one draft or in one year for that matter. This team had more holes than a convention of prostitutes in Vegas. Marv can't possibly fill 'em all in one weekend.

684803[/snapback]

 

Except your first paragraph undermines your conclusion: Lenny P's point is just what you're attacking - he says the Bills netted a weak draft class and strongly implies that Levy already is failing to measure up to Donahoe in terms of drafting. In other words, he makes a blanket judgment about this year's draft class which, you astutely point out, is premature and pointless. The problem is that Len P does this because he has an agenda - to pimp his buddy Donahoe, in exchange for information when Donahoe lands a new job. Don't overlook the importance of this little (butt) plug at the end of this same column:

 

"There figures to be a shakeup in the St. Louis Rams' personnel department and former Buffalo Bills president/general manager Tom Donahoe could be part of the new structure. Rams president John Shaw is a longtime admirer of Donahoe's work."

 

This is bad journalism, it's quid pro quo, shameless reporting all around.

[K-gunner]

That article just plain sucks as much as Lenny does at the buffet table.The whole ESPN coverage of the draft had a anti-Buffalo vibe to it.

[Nanker]

While your second paragraph is right, saying that Pasquerelli's position is fair is ludicrous.  The Patriots took a shalacking in the offseason, and their best FA signing was Mike Vanderjagt.  They had a mediocre draft and yet no one is even thinking about criticizing them.  ESPN's writers seem to take the position that, well, NE didn't do so great but hey its NE, what's not to love.  Next Super Bowl champs!  This article proves what chumps some of these big time guys are.  Let's not give them credit when it isn't due.

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You talkin' to me? I was talking about Joe Six Pack, not Lenny Passthegrease.

[Nanker]

Except your first paragraph undermines your conclusion:  Lenny P's point is just what you're attacking - he says the Bills netted a weak draft class and strongly implies that Levy already is failing to measure up to Donahoe in terms of drafting.  In other words, he makes a blanket judgment about this year's draft class which, you astutely point out, is premature and pointless.  The problem is that Len P does this because he has an agenda - to pimp his buddy Donahoe, in exchange for information when Donahoe lands a new job.  Don't overlook the importance of this little (butt) plug at the end of this same column:

 

"There figures to be a shakeup in the St. Louis Rams' personnel department and former Buffalo Bills president/general manager Tom Donahoe could be part of the new structure. Rams president John Shaw is a longtime admirer of Donahoe's work."

 

This is bad journalism, it's quid pro quo, shameless reporting all around.

684838[/snapback]

Ditto to you. I'm talking about our very own Joe 6Pk's position. Or, rather my interpretation of JSP. Lenny P can suck a golf ball through a tailpipe.

[Nanker]

My point is this. Don't fall in love with any of these guys just because they're now Bills or just because Marv drafted them. Let's wait to fall in love after they've knocked the snott out of the Brady Bunch, the Dollfags and the J-E-S-T-S, and if they don't then they weren't worthy of our love.

That's all.

TD's tenure should have taught us all to be jealous with our affections.

[Gary M]

Is Marv your grandaddy or something, gentlemen?

 

It's like if someone criticizes the Bills; draft, they're criticizing YOU.

684733[/snapback]

 

I think it is more about their inconsistent stances.

 

LP as quoted to start this thread.

 

"Now they're going to overpay contractually for Whitner and perhaps for McCargo in the first round"

 

LP - "said John McCargo of North Carolina State, one of the top defensive tackle prospects in this year's draft."

 

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/draft06/colu..._len&id=2419482

 

LP - "They mention him in the same elite subset as Haloti Ngata (Oregon), Brodrick Bunkley (Florida State), John McCargo (North Carolina State), Orien Harris (Miami), Gabe Watson (Michigan) and Rodrique Wright (Texas)."

 

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/draft06/colu..._len&id=2411170

 

LP - doesn't even mention McCargo in his draft wrap, I think an elite DT filled a very big need the Bills had.

 

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/draft06/colu..._len&id=2428160

 

Bold added.

[Marv's Neighbor]

Lenny you ignorant slut!