Kelly the Dog Posted May 2, 2006 Share Posted May 2, 2006 However, Woodson was a FS from Purdue when he was drafted. I'm sure you get Marv's gist. 681117[/snapback] Frankly, I'd say that when a team looks as a player at #10, mostly because of his athleticism and speed, and says before the draft we're going to play him at cornerback, and drafts him, and immediately puts him at cornerback, and he plays nothing but cornerback for a decade, he cannot be considered one of the best safety picks of all-time because of his speed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuckincincy Posted May 2, 2006 Share Posted May 2, 2006 Frankly, I'd say that when a team looks as a player at #10, mostly because of his athleticism and speed, and says before the draft we're going to play him at cornerback, and drafts him, and immediately puts him at cornerback, and he plays nothing but cornerback for a decade, he cannot be considered one of the best safety picks of all-time because of his speed. 681128[/snapback] Well then, Levy misspoke. BFD. Does he deserve some liberal punishment? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KOKBILLS Posted May 2, 2006 Share Posted May 2, 2006 That's very disingenious, as the likelihood of projecting to an eventual starter drops off dramatically round-by-round. We'll have to see how Yobouty's career plays out in comparison to Jason Spitz and Rashad Butler - but those are the only two other offensive linemen taken in the third round. In the 4th round, you're looking at guys like Joe "Holy" Toledo who played TE in college, Chris Whimper who went very late in the round, and Jahri Evans from that football factory of Bloomsburg State University. I think Ko Simpson's future in the League looks better than any of those three. I don't know about you, but I'd rather draft a guy who is going to play this year, and projects to be an eventual starter in 1-2 years than draft the next Marques Sullivan or Jamie Nails simply because we *had* to get another warm body on the offensive line. JDG 681108[/snapback] I think the main thing Folks forget is that The Bills Board was different from any other NFL Board in that they are each unique depending on the Scouting Departments, HC, Offensive and Defensive philosophies, etc... Early on The Bills obviously felt there was a HUGE drop in O-Line Talent after Ferguson, and they had Whitner Graded Higher than Bunkley or Ngata... We now know The Bills had a much Higher Grade on McCargo than many other Teams...I think this was mostly due to Defensive philosophy and that the Bills Doc's had given McCargo a clear bill of health...Also the Bills Scouts did not seem to penalize McCargo for his lack of Playing time or coming out early like others did... With the Youboty, Simpson, and Williams Picks especially on Day #2, the Bills went with Players who they had Graded MUCH higher than most other Teams once again. I think the Bills were thinking O-Line all along, but they were true to their Board...It's what most NFL Teams do...They had a Late 1st to early 2nd Rd. Grade on Youboty, a 2nd Round Grade on Simpson, and a 3rd Round Grade on Williams...Rest assured at each of those Picks there were no Offensive Linemen left with higher Grades on The Bills Board or they would have taken them...It's really that simple... The only question now is, how good was the Bills Board in comparison with the other Teams? And we'll find out soon enough when these Kids get on the Field... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sisyphean Bills Posted May 2, 2006 Share Posted May 2, 2006 Woodson was drafted at #10 in 1987. The Bills picked Shane Conlon at #8 that year. Woodson had a heck of a career. 681069[/snapback] Yeah, I know. I just meant that Woodson was a freak as well as a great player. He could play anywhere in the secondary (and did) and he could play special teams and was a gifted return man (which he also did early in his career). Not to take anything away from Whitner, but the comparison just doesn't seem very apt. Comparing Whitner to Roy Williams seems more appropriate, for example. Kelly Dog makes the point quite well: Frankly, I'd say that when a team looks as a player at #10, mostly because of his athleticism and speed, and says before the draft we're going to play him at cornerback, and drafts him, and immediately puts him at cornerback, and he plays nothing but cornerback for a decade, he cannot be considered one of the best safety picks of all-time because of his speed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Posted May 2, 2006 Share Posted May 2, 2006 #8 is very, very high for a pure safety. 680755[/snapback] who the hell is the "pure safety"? Whitner can play any position in the secondary. Ko is a pure safety but Whitner is the man Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill from NYC Posted May 2, 2006 Share Posted May 2, 2006 That's very disingenious, as the likelihood of projecting to an eventual starter drops off dramatically round-by-round. 681108[/snapback] Disingenuous John? OK. Did I somehow decide this morning that the Bills need OL help? Or, have I been here for years, pointing at a problem that just will not go away? I am making the case that things could have been done in a different way. We could have traded down and took Joseph, and perhaps Trueblood or another blocker in round 2. Instead of 3 little players with the first 4 picks, we could have perhaps drafted linemen on both sides of the ball with our best resources, and NOT have given up a pick in the ugly process. Maybe we could have owned 5 first day picks, and fended off the peril that you describe above in terms of liklihood of starting. I am more than OK with you not agreeing with me on how to build a football team, but disingenuous? Really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sisyphean Bills Posted May 2, 2006 Share Posted May 2, 2006 Trust me, the irony isn't lost on me. It's kind of like berating the Bills for rebuilding the line with Tuten Reyes, and berating them for not drafting more Tuten Reyeses. 681087[/snapback] To be completely fair to Marv, he did throw 3 late rounders (Reyes was a 5th rounder) at the OL. And, Butler is even mean. The new cliche is the same as the old cliche, it seems. "You just can never have enough late round lineman" (to patch together a line). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill from NYC Posted May 2, 2006 Share Posted May 2, 2006 To be completely fair to Marv, he did throw 3 late rounders (Reyes was a 5th rounder) at the OL. And, Butler is even mean. The new cliche is the same as the old cliche, it seems. "You just can never have enough late round lineman" (to patch together a line). 681389[/snapback] One can't argue with success, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sisyphean Bills Posted May 2, 2006 Share Posted May 2, 2006 One can't argue with success, right? 681397[/snapback] Exactly. Who wants an Allen, Ogden, Pace, Faneca, Jones, Hutchinson on their team? The fact these guys are paid King's ransoms is just coincidental. Afterall, Bennie "The Beanie" Anderson can get in somebody's way. Sometimes. Maybe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill from NYC Posted May 2, 2006 Share Posted May 2, 2006 Exactly. Who wants an Allen, Ogden, Pace, Faneca, Jones, Hutchinson on their team? The fact these guys are paid King's ransoms is just coincidental. Afterall, Bennie "The Beanie" Anderson can get in somebody's way. Sometimes. Maybe. 681415[/snapback] What baffles me is that many of the very same people who simply couldn't wait to oust Drew are now fully content to watch Losman get his brains beat in, which will almost surely happen. They are happy to have DBs with 3 of the first 4 picks. I was against the trade that brought JP to Buffalo, but he IS here, and he deserves a chance to have a few seconds to throw. A running game would be cool too, considering that Willis is in fact a damn good back! All I want is for the losing cycle to end. It will not until we stop focusing on small football players. Dwight Adams agrees. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted May 2, 2006 Share Posted May 2, 2006 All I want is for the losing cycle to end. It will not until we stop focusing on small football players. Dwight Adams agrees. 681437[/snapback] Is that why Bills drafted a DB in 1st round in 5 drafts overseen by Dwight Adams and only 2 OLs in 1st round? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cornerville Posted May 2, 2006 Share Posted May 2, 2006 All I want is for the losing cycle to end. It will not until we stop focusing on small football players. Dwight Adams agrees. 681437[/snapback] Let me ask this question: Denver has a smallish OL and has never been considered a "big team" even when they won the SB right? And they have big time success, and play in a cold weather city..would this be an accurate statement? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JDG Posted May 2, 2006 Share Posted May 2, 2006 Disingenuous John? OK. Did I somehow decide this morning that the Bills need OL help? Or, have I been here for years, pointing at a problem that just will not go away? I am making the case that things could have been done in a different way. We could have traded down and took Joseph, and perhaps Trueblood or another blocker in round 2. Instead of 3 little players with the first 4 picks, we could have perhaps drafted linemen on both sides of the ball with our best resources, and NOT have given up a pick in the ugly process. Maybe we could have owned 5 first day picks, and fended off the peril that you describe above in terms of liklihood of starting. I am more than OK with you not agreeing with me on how to build a football team, but disingenuous? Really. 681358[/snapback] Bill - You asked me if I was surprised that two of our next three picks were used on DB's. Those picks were a #1, a #3, and a #4. My point is simply that by the time you are in the 3rd and 4th rounds the nature of the "needs" you are drafting for changes quite a bit. Your response above, however, is the answer to a separate question - "What could we have done besides drafting Whitner?" Your answer to that question is not disingenious. I do believe, however, that it is perhaps not completely serious to suggest that we should be surprised by the position on which a 4th Round Pick is being used. My point is that the Bills had an immediate need at OT. Ultimately, due to the lack of top-end talent at OT in this draft, and due to our much greater need at DT, we were not able to draft a player who could immediately compete with Gandy on the first day. By the second day of the draft, you begin looking much more at next year's needs than this year's needs. In this case, replacing an aging Vincent at FS is arguably comparable to replacing Gandy. In other words, I like the chances of Ko Simpson getting quality playing time for us much moreso than the chances of the pride of Bloomsburg State University playing for us.... JDG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill from NYC Posted May 2, 2006 Share Posted May 2, 2006 Is that why Bills drafted a DB in 1st round in 5 drafts overseen by Dwight Adams and only 2 OLs in 1st round? 681444[/snapback] Ok then, was he telling a lie in his e-mail above? Or, perhaps those in power thought that there were good blockers in place at the time. If you or others think that our OL is adequate, great, but I disagree. I think that it is composed primarily of cast offs, with a ufa who shows promise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill from NYC Posted May 2, 2006 Share Posted May 2, 2006 Let me ask this question: Denver has a smallish OL and has never been considered a "big team" even when they won the SB right? And they have big time success, and play in a cold weather city..would this be an accurate statement? 681447[/snapback] Yes, they were a rather unheralded bunch. They also threw Teague into the garbage heap and we made him a long term starter and a multi-millionaire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuckincincy Posted May 2, 2006 Share Posted May 2, 2006 Let me ask this question: Denver has a smallish OL and has never been considered a "big team" even when they won the SB right? And they have big time success, and play in a cold weather city..would this be an accurate statement? 681447[/snapback] If you add clipping, low blows, crack blocks, yes...an accurate depiction of the DEN OL and their coaches' philosophy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
34-78-83 Posted May 2, 2006 Share Posted May 2, 2006 Sometimes it's bad to over-simplify things , but I'll take a stab at it..... 1- This team was not going to become a success in one season 2- This team addressed it's biggest needs in a big way on the DEFENSIVE side of the ball in drafting 2 quality safeties and 2 quality DT's for the cover 2 scheme. 3- The O-line prospects in the draft had far less top-end talent depth and thus , based on the Bill's board, the O-line was not really addressed. 4- It's one thing to reach on Mel's "Board", but when you reach on your own board, you're in trouble. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dibs Posted May 2, 2006 Share Posted May 2, 2006 Sometimes it's bad to over-simplify things , but I'll take a stab at it..... 1- This team was not going to become a success in one season 2- This team addressed it's biggest needs in a big way on the DEFENSIVE side of the ball in drafting 2 quality safeties and 2 quality DT's for the cover 2 scheme. 3- The O-line prospects in the draft had far less top-end talent depth and thus , based on the Bill's board, the O-line was not really addressed. 4- It's one thing to reach on Mel's "Board", but when you reach on your own board, you're in trouble. 681639[/snapback] How about some more over-simplifying. If it was so easy to trade down, why didn't the Lions trade down. Surely Sims(or equal value) would have still been there a few picks later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MDH Posted May 2, 2006 Share Posted May 2, 2006 I was against the trade that brought JP to Buffalo, but he IS here, and he deserves a chance to have a few seconds to throw. A running game would be cool too, considering that Willis is in fact a damn good back! 681437[/snapback] And you can be sure that when the QBs struggle this year that the Bills will use their early picks next year on QB, WR and LB and ignore the OL once again. I’ve just gotten used to the fact that the Bills will be patching together their OL with second and third tier FA for the next 20 years. At some point they’ll get lucky and it will work and posters will say, “SEE, you CAN put together a line this way!” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaska Darin Posted May 3, 2006 Share Posted May 3, 2006 May I please direct you to Marv Levy's press conference following the Whitner pick. In case you don't go there, I'll ask the following, "Who was the Steelers' best player last year?" "Which player on Steelers' defense did the OCs have to account for on all downs?" "Who was the best player on Pats' D when they won the Superbowls?" Since we're walking down memory lane, who was the last safety who ran a sub 4.4 - 40? Was it Rod Woodson? Would he be worth a top 10 pick? 680960[/snapback] Shhhh. It's fun to watch people think they're smart because they understand value the way Mel Kiper explained it to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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