_BiB_ Posted August 23, 2004 Posted August 23, 2004 FREE DEBATE Your words. A political rally is not a forum I feel is conducive to constructive free debate. I'm not saying anything pro/anti anyone. Are you saying that you actually consider it realistic, let alone proper that a Presidential Candidate should stop what he's doing - drop the message he is trying to give - to a target audience that came for that message - so that he can trade bantering zingers with a single "spewer" who by his actions demonstrates no intentions of engaging in a credible dialogue? Damn, Exiled. So you feel I'm free to go to a Kerry rally, and while he is speaking start shouting out where i think his his terrorism policy is not only wrong, but politically motivated and downright dangerous?
ExiledInIllinois Posted August 23, 2004 Posted August 23, 2004 Damn, Exiled. So you feel I'm free to go to a Kerry rally, and while he is speaking start shouting out where i think his his terrorism policy is not only wrong, but politically motivated and downright dangerous? 4820[/snapback] Yes! YES! YES!! You get my ear. If I couldn't rebut it, I would be doing some serious thinking when I got home. What in this world is not downright dangerous? We can't live in fear of making mistakes. The world isn't flat. And yes, it is downright dangerous to attempt and implement new ideas.
Alaska Darin Posted August 23, 2004 Posted August 23, 2004 No there is not (proper place and time) when you are not officially in the compacity of your job?. I don't take he was. Implying just doesn't cut it, you either were or weren't. The political spectrum has no constraints. Was the guy wearing a company uniform? Offiicial time? The thing he should have done is declined the tickets from the client if he was going to speak freely, attended on his own behalf. Would he have been able to get tickets on his own behalf? I take not? I was waiting for you to jump in AD. I am not totally surprised by your stance on decorum... A little dismayed. 4819[/snapback] I disagree. The tickets were given to his company by a client of theirs. If he knew he couldn't control himself, he shouldn't have accepted the tickets. Period. There are a variety of ways to protest but there are consequences to actions taken and limits to free speech. Period. Had he wanted to stand outside and pass out flyers to passers by and the company had sent him packing, I'd be on his side. As to your question on whether he'd be able to get a ticket, I don't know and I don't think it's relevant.
ExiledInIllinois Posted August 23, 2004 Posted August 23, 2004 I disagree. The tickets were given to his company by a client of theirs. If he knew he couldn't control himself, he shouldn't have accepted the tickets. Period. There are a variety of ways to protest but there are consequences to actions taken and limits to free speech. Period. Had he wanted to stand outside and pass out flyers to passers by and the company had sent him packing, I'd be on his side. As to your question on whether he'd be able to get a ticket, I don't know and I don't think it's relevant. 4829[/snapback] I am to the point where you guys having believing your side for everyhting else except politics. There should be no fear as to what you say politically. Period. If there is, then let the brainwashing begin.
IDBillzFan Posted August 23, 2004 Posted August 23, 2004 I guess money is more important to you than the country and its founding roots that gave you the freedom to conduct that business? So as long as we make our country and its founding roots a priority, it's okay to let my business go down the toilet? Damn right money is more important in a situation like this. Piss of the client...lose the client. Lose the client...lose money. Lose money...lay off people. Lay off people...blame Bush. There are very severe consequences for "just" showing respect. Actually, there are very severe consequences for NOT showing respect. It's a part of business. You show respect to your customers. In fact, it's a pretty decent gesture on the human level as well. You show respect, and when you don't, the consequences that follow will be as light or as severe as the situation demands. If someone is going to show no respect, and I face losing a client over it, then yes...he's fired.
Alaska Darin Posted August 23, 2004 Posted August 23, 2004 I am to the point where you guys having believing your side for everyhting else except politics. There should be no fear as to what you say politically. Period. If there is, then let the brainwashing begin. 4838[/snapback] Care to put that first sentence in English so I can understand it? "Engage brain before opening mouth" exists for a reason.
DC Tom Posted August 23, 2004 Posted August 23, 2004 "Engage brain before opening mouth" exists for a reason. 4847[/snapback] Judging by the typical level of discourse on this board, that reason must be "to be ignored"...
Wacka Posted August 23, 2004 Posted August 23, 2004 You can really tell that Exiled works for the gubment.
IDBillzFan Posted August 23, 2004 Posted August 23, 2004 You know what...youre right. Next time a client calls me in a few minutes, Im going to let him have it about how my boss, a huge jewish liberal, doesnt give me a proper raise because he believes that Ariel Sharon should be fired and I think the Palestinians and all Muslims living in Isreal should be rushed into refugee camps. Then Im going to ask this client how he feels about the political remifications about allowing abortion to remain legal and his or her stance on a ban on gay marriages. Ill let you know how it works out. 4856[/snapback] Not to suggest that I'm a psychic, but I think you will likely need THIS about as fast as you can hang up the phone.
gmac17 Posted August 23, 2004 Posted August 23, 2004 You can really tell that Exiled works for the gubment. it's not the first argument where it's been evident.
ExiledInIllinois Posted August 23, 2004 Posted August 23, 2004 You can really tell that Exiled works for the gubment. 4867[/snapback] Ya, and I just took my ethics training. Iam free to speak my political beliefs. By no means do my beliefs constitute my employer's beliefs or endorsement of my political beliefs. The crux of the matter here is the employers fear of losing business. If evrybody was on the same page, it wouldn't be a problem. You guys think I come to be amongst people who feel the same way? What you say doesn't go in one ear and out the other. It probably seems shocking to you that I draw such a distinct circle around politics? Reread my posts carefully.
ExiledInIllinois Posted August 23, 2004 Posted August 23, 2004 I say this with all due respect..... Exiled, if we are all "closed minded", then you are a huge PHONY. Because there is no way in hell that if you owned a company and your employees embarrassed your business in public while on your time, you would be throwing around this tripe about "absolute" freedom. There is no way that you would allow your employees to act like idiots ON YOUR DIME all in the name of "good debate". No way. 4837[/snapback] To quote LA.... those are ifs and they aren't happening. I try not to be a what if person...
IDBillzFan Posted August 23, 2004 Posted August 23, 2004 The crux of the matter here is the employers fear of losing business. If evrybody was on the same page, it wouldn't be a problem. There is only one page: the customer's. Whatever page the customer is on, that is the page the vendor is on...and anyone under the employ of the vendor. It's just that simple. Anything else is simply taking a position for the sake of taking a position.
Alaska Darin Posted August 23, 2004 Posted August 23, 2004 There is only one page: the customer's. Whatever page the customer is on, that is the page the vendor is on...and anyone under the employ of the vendor. It's just that simple. Anything else is simply taking a position for the sake of taking a position. 4892[/snapback] I can't say I agree 100%, but that's pretty close to "the customer is always right." There are exceptions, like when the customer is an utter A-Hole.
IDBillzFan Posted August 23, 2004 Posted August 23, 2004 I can't say I agree 100%, but that's pretty close to "the customer is always right." There are exceptions, like when the customer is an utter A-Hole. 4899[/snapback] You're absolutely right. Something I've learned in my years of marketing and selling; the most successful companies are the ones which build themselves to conduct their business "on their own terms." That is to say, you only do business where it makes sense and have the ability to walk away from any client where it does not make sense. That includes the A-holes. In fact, we employed this thinking with my new company right out of the gate, and because we have the wherewithal to patiently do this, we become a more solid company everyday. And it's not so much tha "the customer is always right." It's more like "the customer always thinks they're right." The rest is strictly manipulated.
erynthered Posted August 23, 2004 Posted August 23, 2004 Conduct detrimental to the welfare of the company. Its written in allot of Company hand books.
ExiledInIllinois Posted August 23, 2004 Posted August 23, 2004 Care to put that first sentence in English so I can understand it? "Engage brain before opening mouth" exists for a reason. 4847[/snapback] Is that the only logical argument that you can fire back at me?... So, so sorry. Again, sorry, I was typing fast and didn't proof read it... Me bad, that it slipped by without an edit! Here is the edit: "I am to the point where you guys have me believing your side for everyhting else except politics". What I meant: I can see the boss firing the guy if it didn't center around politics.
Alaska Darin Posted August 23, 2004 Posted August 23, 2004 Is that the only logical argument that you can fire back at me?... So, so sorry. Again, sorry, I was typing fast and didn't proof read it... Me bad, that it slipped by without an edit! Here is the edit: "I am to the point where you guys have me believing your side for everyhting else except politics". What I meant: I can see the boss firing the guy if it didn't center around politics. 5111[/snapback] It has nothing to do with an argument. I'm not a mindreader and I couldn't figure out what you were trying to say. Politics aren't any more out of bounds than anything else given the particular set of circumstances.
ExiledInIllinois Posted August 23, 2004 Posted August 23, 2004 It has nothing to do with an argument. I'm not a mindreader and I couldn't figure out what you were trying to say. Politics aren't any more out of bounds than anything else given the particular set of circumstances. 5124[/snapback] Fair enough... It was a pretty brutal string of words... That is my whole argument. I think it (politics) is. How can one define that it is detrimental to the company?... Unless, the client or whoever is articulating their political opinion is refusing to do business on those grounds. IMHO, that is personal and wrong. There are so many consequences to these polarizing acts. It is is plain wrong and reeks of political collusion (or promotes political collusion). I just don't see the good and bad side of the political issue at hand. I would actually like to get an in depth transcript of what was sad during the rally? Was he first asked to simmer down? What actually went on? Again, I feel deeply on this issue (why I am posting so much) NO MATTER WHO IS DOING IT. What is stopping somebody from being influenced on these grounds in fear of losing their job? Sure they can go other places... What happens if that is difficult? I sure as one don't want to be a "corporate lemming" in fear of losing my job. Do you think the Mcdonald's comments (earlier in the thread) were threatening? I know it was only joking, that this thread means nothing. Should comments like these in a real situation be tolerated? We want people to start getting interested in politics and be less jaded towards politicians... Subduing their productive voice is doing the exact opposite (along with many other things).
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