Sportscenter is focussing on the Bills and

[The Rev.Mattb74 ESQ.]

Why is Mort bashing Wilson. Is it because Wilson always favored Leo Roth, Larry Felser, and the late great Will Mcdonaugh(sp). Ralph does not interfere as much as half the owners in the league(Jerry Jones). Laundry the Cowboys only coach to that point found out he wasnt the coach of the team by watching the 6 oclock news. Also released Jimmy Johnson(who may be an arogant prick but was a great coach). No Ralph's problem was that he gave total control to TD and didnt get involved enough. It is important to trust people but he gave Donahoe to much trust. Ralphs getting bashed because he is standing up to the new NFL regime. What is going on is political spin to make Wilson look bad to discredit his fight against the league. Ralph has put his money where his mouth is with sharing funds among teams, he saved the Raiders from going bankrupt when he bought into the team to help keep them afloat many years ago. He, Mara, and Rooney where great friends that realized they where in business together not against each other. He always thought of the good of the league, he even voted against his friend Modell to keep the Browns in Cleveland. Ralph is everything that made the NFL great, and unfortunatley it looks like when he goes so doesnt the last of the great ones. On a side note I am upset that Mr. Hunt has not come to Wilsons aid, him and Wilson are the last of the original owners, you would think he would say something.

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

no, he lost his credibility because he slants all bills reports as anti-ralph wilson.  he needs to get over the fact that ralphy cut loose his butt buddy.  whether or not he's right, you don't slant your journalism that much and retain your credibility.

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So that makes him wrong?

 

How long have you been a fan of this team? With the exception of that one magical stretch, they've been among the WORST run NFL franchises.

[The Rev.Mattb74 ESQ.]

So that makes him wrong?

 

How long have you been a fan of this team? With the exception of that one magical stretch, they've been among the WORST run NFL franchises.

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They one two championships in the 60's and one four AFC titles in the 90's. After that they have been awful and pretty good. All franchises go through that. A handful of teams ie the Steelers, Raiders, Dolphins, Redskins and Cowboys have been good many times. Most teams however go through highs and lows. Pats where very rarely good till recently, the Browns, Seahawks, Saints, and Bucs have rarely been Good. The Pack was good in the begining, then terrible till the late 90's and are bad again. Besides the Namath years the Jets have been losers. I think the Bills are on par with most of the league, it just stings more because they are our team.

[Pyrite Gal]

No, Price comes to replace Price, as since he left the Bills have been lacking an overpaid coward who doesn't deserve to be on an NFL roster.

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Now, let me get this straight as to what you are reffering to.

 

Price clearly failed for AT when they tried to make him a #1 WR and went even further south behind Keyshawn, Glenn and other Dallas WRs last year.

 

However, I do not believe you can seriously be calling a WR who racked up 94 catches in his last go round with the Bills which capped off him improving in his production of yards gained, receptions and TDs in every year as a Bill a coward.

 

The major rap on Price when he was here was that he did lay the ball on the carpet too much. However, even with his too many fumbles, they seem to mostly occur not because Price was a weenie, but because he actually stuggled to pick up a couple of yards with an opponent hanging on his anklesd and then coughed up the ball when a second tackler hit him after the first tackle attempt teed him up.

 

When he was here, I actually felt PP would have aoided the fumbles if he was more of a weenie and simply went down after the first hit (but didn't become too much of a weenie because he needed to hold onto the ball with the first hit as he did as a Bill).

 

The key factors for PP contributing to the Bills in 06 strike me as:

 

1. At most he will be a #2 WR for us and more likely a #3-

 

While no one should count on him being a reasonable #1 as those fools in AT did, he is a proven NFL producer at #2 as he produced good results (do you agree?) for us as a compliment to Moulds in 2002. He is several years removed from 2002 so it does not appear reasomable to me to expect the same #@ WR performance out of him.

 

However, IF the two big IFs are: 1. Can Evans be a reasonable replacement for Moulds at #1 (could be but he has less circus catch ability, has shown OK hands but has not commanded the middle yet for the Bills as Moulds got this job) but he has far significantly more speed than Moulds and can be a good compliment to the right #2 WR. and.

 

2. Can Parrish develop into a reasonable #2 WR (this is possible as he also has outstanding spped and showed reasonable (though not phenomenal) hands last year.

 

If Evans and Parrish are the real deal as a #1 and #2 then all we ask of Price is that he produce far less than he already produced as a Bill and be our #3. I hope this works out because if it does, the speed we have on the field and the challenges we pose to Ds to have the speed to cover Evans, Parrish and Price is going to be fun to watch.

 

I can see what Fairchild may be trying to do because even if Parrish does not develop, he has to hope that some surprises come from Davis, or Reed recovers the form he showed as a rookie. or Price actually has enough left to perform as he did in his last year as a Bill, or Aiken somehow shows something he has never shiwn in the field as a WR and one of these players is credible as a #2 with Evans.

 

It strikes me as pretty unlikely to be on any of these 4 players being good enough to be a quality #2. However, even though indiviudally none is a good bet, there is a reasonable chance that one of these four will step up and be a credible #2.

 

If the Bills find a #2 to go with Evans (who I think is the real deal) then I have no problem with hoping/expecting Price to perform adequately as a #3 WR.

[Pyrite Gal]

rundown:

 

-price returns to replace moulds (no, price comes to replace lee, who replaces moulds)

 

-mort reports that the bills last were in the playoffs during the homerun throwup

-mort reports that ralph wilson was overbearing on mike mularkey and was the reason why kelly holcomb started over jp last year.  he also says that ralph should be in the hall of fame

 

-kiper runs down some OL names.  predicts them to pick one in round 1 or 2

 

-TJ wants the bills to pick a DT...  brodrick bunkley (sp?) from florida

end of the rundown

basically, TJ and kiper believes the bills weakness is in the trenches so they think we'll pick up some good talent on both lines.  Mort just ripped on ralph wilson.  "ralph ran off polian, butler, TD, mularkey, bla bla bla", "marv levy is a hall of fame coach, but he won't be a hall of fame GM"  Mort has lost all credibility due to his reporting on the bills.  I will never respect his opinion on any nfl matter. 

 

My opinion on the bills draft piece:  its nothing we don't already know...  pick up the best linemen in the early rounds as you can.

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Thanks for the run down as I did not see the piece Sportscenter!

 

However, what I do not understand is why folks are complaining about what Mort said, (assuming your rundown is correct) because it all looks at least plausible and correct as best as I can tell.

 

1. You describe Mort as saying Price comes in to replace Moulds and you expand on this to say Price comes in actually to replace Evans as Evans replaces Moulds.

 

This seems accurate to me. Some folks seem to be confused by you referring to Evans by his first name, but to worry about this point seems to be splitting hairs much as though I agree with you that PP is currently slotted to be the #2, I think that part of the reason Moulds was pissed was that he already had been bounced to the #2 WR slot when JP andEvans connected for 3 TDs in one quarter against the fish.

 

The Bills officially list PP as the starting WR across from Evans on the depth chart. I hope that Parrish steps up in pre-season and takes the #2 slot and forces PP to #3 as having this much speed available in 3 WR sets will be formidable indeed.

 

2. The Bills were in fact last in the playoffs when the throw-up knocked us out so this seems accurate.

 

3. My guess is that he is probably correct that Ralph inserted himself into the Bills operations last year and he had every right to do under the American system as the team owner.

 

He did want to keep MM, but clearly MM was displeased with something Ralph did because he jumped ship rather than work for Ralph. I do not see what folks think is inaccurate here since Ralph has a clear record of insisting on a particular QB as he went on record saying he was incredibly impressed with RJ's performance beating the heck out of an Indy tem which was playing for nothing in that game. Next thing you know Flutie who had QB'ed the team to qualifying for the playoffs with a game left in the season was on the bench and it was RJ who led the team to a lead before Porter and other youngsters put on ST because we had so much cap room locked up on RJ/DF did not stay in their lanes as more experienced players might have and we lost the game.

 

Ralph has every right to meddle with his team, but just because he has the right does not make him right in his choices. I think Mort's read on this one is consistent with the facts at least and probably accurate.

 

As far as the Holcomb issue and whether Ralph belongs in the HOF I am not sure and Ralph will be elected after he dies.

 

4. Yep, the Bills will likely go OL in Rd 1 (certainly if D'Brick falls to ^ and they may take Justice outright or trade down) or in RD 2 (if they go Ngata or Bunkley with the first pick I think they take a G with the second pick). If they do it will be unfortunate because I think getting a better guard is too high a priority to merely try to address this in the crapshoot which is the draft (particularly after Rd 1). The OL is a priority the team should have addressed in FA where you can target proven players rather than consign this need to the draft which I think most fans over-value because of the publicity and the advent of fantasy football which has turned all of us legends in our own minds into experts.

 

5. It is also no surprise that former defender TJ wants us to pick a defender. The general Kiper prediction of get help in the trenches is one of the great declarations of the obvious.

 

I do not see why folks are questioning Mort's credibility based on your run down because it all looks fiarly obvious and correct to this Bills fan.

[Bob in STL]

Those years ended bitterly, because Wilson treated Butler like a third world indentured servant.  McBride's analogy to Monty Burns is perfectly appropriate.  To think otherwise is revising history.

 

TD may have dug his own grave, but that has nothing to do with Wilson's mistseps with Polian, Butler, and obviously retrospectively missing out on AJ Smith.  If people here cry over the missed Mike Williams draft choice, there should be equal noise made over letting AJ Smith run off to SD.

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Good point on AJ but he lacked GM experience and he was going to stick with Butler anyway.

 

One of Ralph's issues with Butler was that Butler did not handle contracts and the business side of the job. AJ would have had those same issues. Butler may have been lower paid but prior to the escalation in front office salaries, Ralph was paying multple people to do the job that some GMs were doing by themselves.

 

Other issues with Ralph and Butler leaving were:

1 - the handling of Wade;

2 - Butler's cap mess and reluctance to purge veterans to get the cap under control;

3 - Flutie-Johnson related decisions (lots of stories about meddling here).

 

Ralph paid TD bigger dollars but gave him much more responsibility. TD failed on his own. TD was drunk with power and that lead to some bad decisions. Ralph was correct to end TD's regime.

[bills_fan]

Marv is probably the only person in the world (other than Jeff Littman) who not only tolerates Ralph's meddling ways but welcomes his input...Does that mean Marv will fail and the Bills will fail...well that's why they play the game...but I wouldn't bet against Marv Levy.....(Marv Apologist = JoeF)

 

I agree with this completely.....(Marv Apologist = bills_fan).

[Orton's Arm]

Posey, Bennie and Vincent may be on the soft side, but I don't think I'd go so far as to call them cowards.

Or was that your 1,123rd anti-Losman post?

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The guy I was most thinking of when I made that post was Mike Williams. But it wasn't just him--it was a general sense the team's accomplishments were less than you'd expect based on its level of talent.

[LancasterSteve]

Polian had a large part in his own dismissal, IMO, with his confrontational approach to dealing with Litman. 

 

  That's part of it. Polian ran a tight ship; was hard headed and wanted everything run exactly the way he wanted them done- no exceptions. I swear the guy was made of stone sometimes. Ralph made his youngest daughter a part of the scouting "team". Bill tried to sort of dismiss her, but Wilson's daughter after a couple of years scouting college kids, became reasonably adept at scouting. Polian announced his own firing on Feb. 4th 1993. I had long since left the Bills but it was no secret that Polian and Wilson's daughter (her name escapes me at the moment...sigh you young guys and gals...don't get old) didn't see eye to eye would be an understatment. Now I got this info after I had left. I guess the last straw for Wilson was when Polian stepped-HARD on this young lasses toes right aroung draft time and followed it up by making a snide remark that reached the media. Maybe some of you might remember, exactly what it was. But those two things really angered "Daddy" and Polian was a lameduck GM that whole 93 season. I had heard rumblings but dismissed them. Here was a GM that had built a Superbowl team. It would be unthinkable to fire him-wouldn'it? I guess its true-bloods thicker than water. IMHO Polian's firing started this downward slide the Bills have been on ever since. Just too damm bad he couldn't keep his mouth shut and ego (at least around Ralph's daughter) in check. Good football man....cold,cold person.

 

 

 

 

 

I've always wondered why John's last two years here ended up so sourly.  IMO, Ralph didn't so much "run him off" as he underestimated Butler's willingness to take a higher-paying job elsewhere.

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John Butler was a good person. The last time I talked to him was at Jeff Burris's wedding on the steps of the church. Our last words were when I asked him if he was going to the reception. His reply that he felt really tired and drained and was going to skip it. JB had quit smoking by then; but IMHO I think he might have known that something was seriously wrong health wise, upon reflection. Someday IM going to ask Marv Levy when it was that JB told him that he had the Big C. IM not a betting man but if I was, I would bet that he told Marv before he departed for San Diego. John Butler really loved it here (it just wasn't football...it was BILLS FOOTBALL) and the only reason, again IMHO, that he left was to gain a little financial security for his family.

[The Rev.Mattb74 ESQ.]

John Butler was a good person. The last time I talked to him was at Jeff Burris's wedding on the steps of the church. Our last words were when I asked him if he was going to the reception. His reply that he felt really tired and drained and was going to skip it. JB had quit smoking by then; but IMHO I think he might have known that something was seriously wrong health wise, upon reflection. Someday IM going to ask Marv Levy when it was that JB told him that he had the Big C. IM not a betting man but if I was, I would bet that he told Marv before he departed for San Diego. John Butler really loved it here (it just wasn't football...it was BILLS FOOTBALL) and the only reason, again IMHO, that he left was to gain a little financial security for his family.

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I am not a conspiracy thoerist but I bet that has some validity to it.

[jarthur31]

no, he lost his credibility because he slants all bills reports as anti-ralph wilson.  he needs to get over the fact that ralphy cut loose his butt buddy.  whether or not he's right, you don't slant your journalism that much and retain your credibility.

664859[/snapback]

 

Plus, HTH does he know Mary will suck as GM? He hasn't done anything yet!!!

[GG]

Plus, HTH does he know Mary will suck as GM?  He hasn't done anything yet!!!   

665886[/snapback]

 

Except that's not what he said. He said that Marv is a HoF coach, not HoF GM, so he has his work cut out for him to prove a lot of doubters wrong (probably including himself).

[GG]

I don't necessarily disagree. 

 

But IMO, I don't think Butler impressed Ralph that much with his management savy (did JB even represent the Bills at league meetings during those years??  I think it was Litman who did, but I may be wrong). 

 

At heart, Butler was a Super Scout, not a corporate-type GM a'la TD.  Ralph probably thought the rest of the league felt the same way and no one was going to offer him significantly more bucks to be a full-fledged GM--which Ralph found out was wrong.

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Butler represented the Bills as GM at all the meetings, but he didn't like that part of the job. I find it hard to believe that the rest of the league felt that he was only suited for talent evaluation.

 

Yes, there is a lot of weirdness in how he jumped to San Diego. But his treatment by Wilson made his departure a foregone conclusion. I'm also guessing taht SD was his desired destination, and that's why he didn't bid out his services to other teams.

 

Now that we're a 1/2 decade removed from Butler's tenure we can objectively judge his performance. It's obvious that he left the team with a huge cap mess in '01. But a lot of that was due to spiraling of Flutie's and RJ's contracts.

 

You can also compare the Butler model of building a team by risking cap troubles for roster continuity, with the TD model which has a sane financial model, but purges the roster every three years. We know that in Bills' case, both failed.

[Lurker]

Yes, there is a lot of weirdness in how he jumped to San Diego.  But his treatment by Wilson made his departure a foregone conclusion.  I'm also guessing taht SD was his desired destination, and that's why he didn't bid out his services to other teams.

666056[/snapback]

 

Butler's first NFL job was as a scout for the Chargers from 1985-86. I'd guess his relationship with the Spanos family may have played a role in him wanting to go back to SD.