John from Riverside Posted April 19, 2006 Posted April 19, 2006 I get the idea that big and beefy is good from watching guys like Ted Washington, Pat Williams and Sam Adams clog up the middle quite effectively. Also remember in the 90's we had a smallish NT and we were constantly being run on up the middle. I would rather have big and beefy. 665436[/snapback] It seems to me that people are making the mistake of comparing size rather then styles of players here: People are comparing Ngata to Sam Adams.....they dont play the same at all....to be honest Sam plays more like Larry Tripplet (inside pressure/disrupter) being a run plugger really isn't Sam's strong suit even though he has the biuld for it. Ngata is probably more of a more talented version of Pat Williams.
damj Posted April 19, 2006 Posted April 19, 2006 Numbers ... we can stop the run with numbers. Who remembers which idiot Head Coach said that one .... was it Greg?
Fan in San Diego Posted April 19, 2006 Posted April 19, 2006 Probably the answer is that Jeff Wright couldn't stop the run very well and our big guys Washington/Williams/Adams... could. 665468[/snapback] Jeff Wright ! That was the name I was trying to remember ! Thanks !
Chicken Wing '73 Posted April 19, 2006 Posted April 19, 2006 Sapp ways 300 lbs the way Ted Washington & Pat Williams weighed 325 for years!
BoondckCL Posted April 20, 2006 Posted April 20, 2006 First off, a caveat. I'm not starting this thread to debate the merits of DT's in this draft. that has been done ad nauseum for the past 2 months, as evidenced by roughly 64,852 threads on ngata vs bunkley. I am starting this thread to try and figure out why so many people clamor for a huge D-line and make so many deragatory comments about our line being "small". Can someone please tell me where its written that 300lb defensive tackles cant stop the run, and get bulled over by guards? The truth is, a smaller quicker defense and defensive line CAN stop the run, and do it successfully. This is the exact style of a cover 2 defense. You want quick players on defense that can cover a lot of ground and make plays everywhere. Players with sideline to sideline speed. In a cover 2 defense, the d-line is responsible for generating pressure on the QB. That means all 4 players on the line must be able to get after the QB, which is why you dont see 340lb cloggers just eating space in a cover 2. As for stopping the run, you can stop the run by pursuit and gang tackling. (2 things i remember marv preaching about to our defense in the 90's) I'll tell you where the idea came from, it was whoever was the first team to stop the hogs in Washington. The quick fix against those beasts was just to put size against size, and it worked to a degree. The NFL teams just have that enstilled in their minds that that is the only way to stop the run. A guy like Bunkley is the perfect DT. We do not need or want Ngata. I am officially saying that he is Mike Williams on the defensive side of the ball. Personally i think that he is the product of the ESPN hype machine, and at best he will end up like Tony Madrich. Here are some cover 2 teams with good defenses, and these are the sizes of their D-lines. Tampa (cover 2) Mcfarland is 300, and Hovan tips the scales at 298. The Buccs have 1 backup DT at 337, and the remainder of their DT's all hover around the 300 lb mark. They dont have trouble stopping the run. (even when they had sapp, he weighs in at 300) Chicago (cover 2) Harris weighs in at 300, johnson and scott weigh in at 300 and 302 as well. the biggest DT on the bears roster is boone at 318. The bears seemd to be fairly good against the run. Washington The skins dont have a dominant defense, but their D played well enough last year to carry the team while it had some offensive woes. The D-line is led by cornelious griffin, who clocks in at 300 lbs. No other DT on the team is over 300 lbs. Indy (cover 2) This is going to break some hearts. The colts D really stepped it up this season, but a quick look at the roster shows no DT over 300 lbs. Tripplet fit their scheme as a rotational DT of about the same size. Oh, and to all of you claiming that Corey Simon was the big clogger needed for their D...he tips the scales at an astounding 297. He helped their defense tremendously, but is "small" by a lot of posters standards. So to summarize my point, it is not necessary to have a large defensive line to play good defense and stop the run. There are more ways to be successful than to have big fat DT's standing around in the middle of the field. I'm not saying 1 defense is better than another, but the Bills are running a cover 2, and cover 2 teams traditionally dont have large DT's. I just would liek to know why so many posters think a "small" d-line will not be as effective against the run as your typical "big" D-line. I welcome any conterpoints/issues you have with what i wrote. just please keep with the spirit of this thread and do not turn this thread into a ngata vs bunkley debate. there are other threads for that. 664594[/snapback]
Fan in San Diego Posted April 20, 2006 Posted April 20, 2006 It seems to me that people are making the mistake of comparing size rather then styles of players here: People are comparing Ngata to Sam Adams.....they dont play the same at all....to be honest Sam plays more like Larry Tripplet (inside pressure/disrupter) being a run plugger really isn't Sam's strong suit even though he has the biuld for it. Ngata is probably more of a more talented version of Pat Williams. 665538[/snapback] Sam Adams was certainly fast for a big man, but when he stayed home he can clog things up with the best of them. He would free lance too much and is why he is not with the team now.
krazykat Posted April 20, 2006 Posted April 20, 2006 Chicago finished just on the outside of the top 10 at 11, 9th in yards per attempt and 5th in tds allowed., and the #2 overall defense in the nfl. just saying. Now Atlanta only had the #1 rushing offense in the nfl so I thought it was amusing you left them out to try to try to prove your point. Superior Lb's outside of derrick brooks. When did Quarles and Ryan Nece become "Vastly superior"? The bucs have good corners but jermaine phillips and Dexter Jackson are far from great safeties. Now a dline that consists of Spires/Hovan/McFarland/and that Simeon Rice guy thats what makes the motor run. Lets see who seattle played this year and where they rank rush offense wise 1 | at Jacksonville Jaguars | L | 14-26 | # 10 rush offense 2 | Atlanta Falcons | W | 21-18 | # 1 rush offense 4 | at Washington Redskins | L | 17-20 | # 7 rush offense 7 | Dallas Cowboys | W | 13-10 | # 13 rush offense 12 | New York Giants | W | 24-21 | # 6 rush offense Obviousily they did play some teams who can run the ball. So I'd say they were deserving of their ranking. but I do agree there in a division with teams who cant run the ball although the niners did rank 17th in rush offense. They also shut down portis the 2nd time around in the playoffs. 665136[/snapback] Atlanta's rushing offense comes almost entirely from Vick. I didn't use them because they are an odd team in that way. Minus Vick's rushing, the Falcons fall out of the top 10. Seattle's rushing allowed in those games- Jags 119 Falcons 115 Skins 141 Dallas 164 NYG 166 That's an average of 141.
krazykat Posted April 20, 2006 Posted April 20, 2006 The conventional wisdom is that you beat the cover 2 by running right at it. The question for the Bills is what is the center of their defensive line going to look like? I suspect it will have to be big enough and dedicated to stopping the run. The conventional wisdom in Cover 2 is that the safeties and linebackers will back up a defensive line running one gap. Once that happens the defense becomes very susceptible to cetain passing routes. I'm from the "every ship on its own bottom" rule. Defensive tackles stop the run first and help the defensive ends sack the qb second. 665426[/snapback] That's exactly right but you have to have the DTs to stop the run. Do we have them? The entire thing falls apart from there if you don't. Tripplett has never been promoted as a run stopper.
DCBongo Posted April 21, 2006 Posted April 21, 2006 If we had Smerlis for one more season instead of Wright, Bills would have stopped OJ Anderson and won the Super Bowl. And if my Aunt had a unit, she'd be my uncle!
nonprophet Posted April 21, 2006 Posted April 21, 2006 I get the idea that big and beefy is good from watching guys like Ted Washington, Pat Williams and Sam Adams clog up the middle quite effectively. Also remember in the 90's we had a smallish NT and we were constantly being run on up the middle. I would rather have big and beefy. 665436[/snapback] A smaller, faster NT in a 3-4 is a recipe for disaster. The DL in a 3-4 is supposed to occupy the opposing OL so that the linebackers can make plays. This is why a 3-4 generally employs larger-than-usual DEs and a huge NT. Ted Washington was the ideal 3-4 NT. I think Jeff Wright was the biggest weakness in the Bills' old 3-4 defense. He could be disruptive, he could tackle for a loss and he could sack the QB more often than a typical 3-4 NT but he could not stop the run consistently and that's what killed them. The NT in a 4-3 doesn't have to be as big as a NT in a 3-4 because they have someone playing next to them.
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