Where did the fallacy come from that a big D-line

[Ramius]

First off, a caveat. I'm not starting this thread to debate the merits of DT's in this draft. that has been done ad nauseum for the past 2 months, as evidenced by roughly 64,852 threads on ngata vs bunkley.

 

I am starting this thread to try and figure out why so many people clamor for a huge D-line and make so many deragatory comments about our line being "small". Can someone please tell me where its written that 300lb defensive tackles cant stop the run, and get bulled over by guards?

 

The truth is, a smaller quicker defense and defensive line CAN stop the run, and do it successfully. This is the exact style of a cover 2 defense. You want quick players on defense that can cover a lot of ground and make plays everywhere. Players with sideline to sideline speed. In a cover 2 defense, the d-line is responsible for generating pressure on the QB. That means all 4 players on the line must be able to get after the QB, which is why you dont see 340lb cloggers just eating space in a cover 2. As for stopping the run, you can stop the run by pursuit and gang tackling. (2 things i remember marv preaching about to our defense in the 90's)

 

Here are some cover 2 teams with good defenses, and these are the sizes of their D-lines.

 

Tampa (cover 2)

Mcfarland is 300, and Hovan tips the scales at 298. The Buccs have 1 backup DT at 337, and the remainder of their DT's all hover around the 300 lb mark. They dont have trouble stopping the run. (even when they had sapp, he weighs in at 300)

 

Chicago (cover 2)

Harris weighs in at 300, johnson and scott weigh in at 300 and 302 as well. the biggest DT on the bears roster is boone at 318. The bears seemd to be fairly good against the run.

 

Washington

The skins dont have a dominant defense, but their D played well enough last year to carry the team while it had some offensive woes. The D-line is led by cornelious griffin, who clocks in at 300 lbs. No other DT on the team is over 300 lbs.

 

Indy (cover 2)

This is going to break some hearts. The colts D really stepped it up this season, but a quick look at the roster shows no DT over 300 lbs. Tripplet fit their scheme as a rotational DT of about the same size. Oh, and to all of you claiming that Corey Simon was the big clogger needed for their D...he tips the scales at an astounding 297. He helped their defense tremendously, but is "small" by a lot of posters standards.

 

So to summarize my point, it is not necessary to have a large defensive line to play good defense and stop the run. There are more ways to be successful than to have big fat DT's standing around in the middle of the field.

 

I'm not saying 1 defense is better than another, but the Bills are running a cover 2, and cover 2 teams traditionally dont have large DT's. I just would liek to know why so many posters think a "small" d-line will not be as effective against the run as your typical "big" D-line.

 

I welcome any conterpoints/issues you have with what i wrote. just please keep with the spirit of this thread and do not turn this thread into a ngata vs bunkley debate. there are other threads for that.

[dave mcbride]

First off, a caveat. I'm not starting this thread to debate the merits of DT's in this draft. that has been done ad nauseum for the past 2 months, as evidenced by roughly 64,852 threads on ngata vs bunkley.

 

I am starting this thread to try and figure out why so many people clamor for a huge D-line and make so many deragatory comments about our line being "small". Can someone please tell me where its written that 300lb defensive tackles cant stop the run, and get bulled over by guards?

 

The truth is, a smaller quicker defense and defensive line CAN stop the run, and do it successfully. This is the exact style of a cover 2 defense. You want quick players on defense that can cover a lot of ground and make plays everywhere. Players with sideline to sideline speed. In a cover 2 defense, the d-line is responsible for generating pressure on the QB. That means all 4 players on the line must be able to get after the QB, which is why you dont see 340lb cloggers just eating space in a cover 2. As for stopping the run, you can stop the run by pursuit and gang tackling. (2 things i remember marv preaching about to our defense in the 90's)

 

Here are some cover 2 teams with good defenses, and these are the sizes of their D-lines.

 

Tampa (cover 2)

Mcfarland is 300, and Hovan tips the scales at 298. The Buccs have 1 backup DT at 337, and the remainder of their DT's all hover around the 300 lb mark. They dont have trouble stopping the run. (even when they had sapp, he weighs in at 300)

 

Chicago (cover 2)

Harris weighs in at 300, johnson and scott weigh in at 300 and 302 as well. the biggest DT on the bears roster is boone at 318. The bears seemd to be fairly good against the run.

 

Washington

The skins dont have a dominant defense, but their D played well enough last year to carry the team while it had some offensive woes. The D-line is led by cornelious griffin, who clocks in at 300 lbs. No other DT on the team is over 300 lbs.

 

Indy (cover 2)

This is going to break some hearts. The colts D really stepped it up this season, but a quick look at the roster shows no DT over 300 lbs. Tripplet fit their scheme as a rotational DT of about the same size. Oh, and to all of you claiming that Corey Simon was the big clogger needed for their D...he tips the scales at an astounding 297. He helped their defense tremendously, but is "small" by a lot of posters standards.

 

So to summarize my point, it is not necessary to have a large defensive line to play good defense and stop the run. There are more ways to be successful than to have big fat DT's standing around in the middle of the field.

 

I'm not saying 1 defense is better than another, but the Bills are running a cover 2, and cover 2 teams traditionally dont have large DT's. I just would liek to know why so many posters think a "small" d-line will not be as effective against the run as your typical "big" D-line.

 

I welcome any conterpoints/issues you have with what i wrote. just please keep with the spirit of this thread and do not turn this thread into a ngata vs bunkley debate. there are other threads for that.

664594[/snapback]

 

i think it's less about weight than body shape, center of gravity, and an ability to patrol two gaps. neither macfarland nor corey simon doesn't weigh a ton, but they have these attributes. two upright, smallish gap shooters is a recipe for disaster.

[tennesseeboy]

Are we talking "small" versus "big" or cover 2? The lines you describe sound pretty darn big to me.

[apuszczalowski]

So it might not be a smokescreen that Ngata doesn't fit the bills scheme like everyone thinks?

 

We tried the fat guys in the middle approach last year, lets see what the new approach will bring us.

[obie_wan]

The fallacy comes from the same book of wisdom containing this nugget:

 

"A RT who plays in front of a left handed QB in college can easily switch to LT in the NFL solely because he protected said QB's blind side."

[John from Riverside]

I think those weights (just like OL weights) are listed on the light side.....

[stinky finger]

"fallacy" ?

[JStranger76]

Not that it matters but Corey Simon came to Indiapolis at over 360 lbs. I'm not sure what he ended up at by regular season but like JohnFromHemet said, a lot of these "listed weights" are totally off. Usually, many players never have their rookie weight adjusted as many teams never update this. This is very common on Oline listings as well.

[MartyBall4Buffalo]

Yeah Corey Simon came to indy largely overweight and out of shape, definitly not the same player that left philly and overall just less dominating like he used to be. I think Ramius's post was a great one though and he definitly hammered the point. You dont need fat bums to stop the run. A defense that can get pressure from the interior and attack the ball can just as easily stop the run, and generate a lot of turnovers.

[krazykat]

So to summarize my point, it is not necessary to have a large defensive line to play good defense and stop the run. There are more ways to be successful than to have big fat DT's standing around in the middle of the field.

664594[/snapback]

Only one of the defenses that you mentioned were in the top 10 for stopping the run and that was Tampa in a division with Carolina and the Saints, two teams not exactly solid rushing teams. And the reason why Tampa's as good as they are is due to their superior linebacking and secondary.

 

Seattle and Carolina were in the top 5 and neither has big tackles, but then neither plays in a division with anything more than average running teams. It might also be why Seattle allowed nearly 200 yards rushing to the Steelers in the Super Bowl.

[Dibs]

"fallacy" ?

664705[/snapback]

 

I think it means penis-like??

[MartyBall4Buffalo]

Only one of the defenses that you mentioned were in the top 10 for stopping the run and that was Tampa in a division with Carolina and the Saints, two teams not exactly solid rushing teams.  And the reason why Tampa's as good as they are is due to their superior linebacking and secondary.

 

 

Chicago finished just on the outside of the top 10 at 11, 9th in yards per attempt and 5th in tds allowed., and the #2 overall defense in the nfl. just saying.

 

Now Atlanta only had the #1 rushing offense in the nfl so I thought it was amusing you left them out to try to try to prove your point. Superior Lb's outside of derrick brooks. When did Quarles and Ryan Nece become "Vastly superior"? The bucs have good corners but jermaine phillips and Dexter Jackson are far from great safeties. Now a dline that consists of Spires/Hovan/McFarland/and that Simeon Rice guy thats what makes the motor run.

 

Seattle and Carolina were in the top 5 and neither has big tackles, but then neither plays in a division with anything more than average running teams.  It might also be why Seattle allowed nearly 200 yards rushing to the Steelers in the Super Bowl.

 

Lets see who seattle played this year and where they rank rush offense wise

 

1 | at Jacksonville Jaguars | L | 14-26 | # 10 rush offense

 

2 | Atlanta Falcons | W | 21-18 | # 1 rush offense

 

4 | at Washington Redskins | L | 17-20 | # 7 rush offense

 

7 | Dallas Cowboys | W | 13-10 | # 13 rush offense

 

12 | New York Giants | W | 24-21 | # 6 rush offense

 

 

Obviousily they did play some teams who can run the ball. So I'd say they were deserving of their ranking. but I do agree there in a division with teams who cant run the ball although the niners did rank 17th in rush offense. They also shut down portis the 2nd time around in the playoffs.

[Orton's Arm]

From what I've heard, the way to attack a small, quick defense is to run right at it. Trying to break runs to the outside usually isn't a good idea, because the defense will be too fast for that to work. But run right at them--put muscle against muscle instead of quickness against quickness, and see what happens.

 

Not that this particular trait makes all small, quick defenses bad at stopping the run. While they may be better suited to stopping outside runs than runs up the middle, a talented cover 2 defense will be able to deal with both.

[Pyrite Gal]

While it would be foolish to claim that having a big DT or a big line is the ONLY way to stop the run, it certainly is one good way to stop the run if your DT or DLs have weight, take up a lot of space and are good players.

 

It is one of the simplest things in the world to sit on an argument by assigning your opponent an extreme view. However, I think the basic case here from folks looking at the Bills drafting Ngata or getting Bunkley (I hope we can strendthen ourselves by trading down and still get him is that they do not see Tim Anderson or any player currently on our roster beinable to stop the run.

 

If you really want to take on a generality that many folks including Marv believe its that being able to stop the run is essential for this team.

 

If you have a theory about how we can do this by drafting some set of small DTs or by going with Anderson I am all eyes.

 

In the absence of you or anyone laying out a plan on how this team can stop the run, if the braintrust feels that Ngata has the right stuff to be a diligent pro and end the inconsistent play of his college days and the Bills who built a good training an conditioning program under Rusty Jones and seemed to maintain it, if they feel good about ending Ngata;s nagging injurt worries I am all for him.

 

If not, then pass on him and trade down and get Bunkley would be great as best as I can tell.

[Ramius]

From what I've heard, the way to attack a small, quick defense is to run right at it.  Trying to break runs to the outside usually isn't a good idea, because the defense will be too fast for that to work.  But run right at them--put muscle against muscle instead of quickness against quickness, and see what happens.

 

Not that this particular trait makes all small, quick defenses bad at stopping the run.  While they may be better suited to stopping outside runs than runs up the middle, a talented cover 2 defense will be able to deal with both.

665141[/snapback]

 

Stop agreeing with me. Its frightening.

 

And yes i agree, theres are more than 1 way to skin a cat. In a cover-2, run stopping can be done with smaller quicker linemen that swarm. Sure it may be more vulnerable to the run right up the gut, but swarm 2 or 3 linemen around the ball carrier and you can shut them down.

 

As i said, i'm not fighting that 1 defense is better than another, just trying to shed some light of the preconceived false notion that you NEED a big fat DT to stop the run.

[Ramius]

While it would be foolish to claim that having a big DT or a big line is the ONLY way to stop the run, it certainly is one good way to stop the run if your DT or DLs have weight, take up a lot of space and are good players.

 

It is one of the simplest things in the world to sit on an argument by assigning your opponent an extreme view.  However, I think the basic case here from folks looking at the Bills drafting Ngata or getting Bunkley (I hope we can strendthen ourselves by trading down and still get him is that they do not see Tim Anderson or any player currently on our roster beinable to stop the run.

 

If you really want to take on a generality that many folks including Marv believe its that being able to stop the run is essential for this team.

 

If you have a theory about how we can do this by drafting some set of small DTs or by going with Anderson I am all eyes.

 

In the absence of you or anyone laying out a plan on how this team can stop the run, if the braintrust feels that Ngata has the right stuff to be a diligent pro and end the inconsistent play of his college days and the Bills who built a good training an conditioning program under Rusty Jones and seemed to maintain it, if they feel good about ending Ngata;s nagging injurt worries I am all for him.

 

If not, then pass on him and trade down and get Bunkley would be great as best as I can tell.

665145[/snapback]

 

Perhaps is you spent as much time reading a post as you do in writing the response, you would see...

 

1. I said do not turn this into a bunkley vs ngata debate

and

2. re-read my original post on how smaller quicker DT's stop the run...they swarm. I'm not marv, i dont know the plan aside from triplett and a draftpick or 2 along the line. But what i do know is that the world isnt over if we pick a smaller quicker DT (no matter who it is). Since we have a cover 2, i think the Bills would be leaning toward a smaller quicker DT.

[tennesseeboy]

The conventional wisdom is that you beat the cover 2 by running right at it. The question for the Bills is what is the center of their defensive line going to look like? I suspect it will have to be big enough and dedicated to stopping the run. The conventional wisdom in Cover 2 is that the safeties and linebackers will back up a defensive line running one gap. Once that happens the defense becomes very susceptible to cetain passing routes. I'm from the "every ship on its own bottom" rule. Defensive tackles stop the run first and help the defensive ends sack the qb second.

[Fan in San Diego]

I get the idea that big and beefy is good from watching guys like Ted Washington, Pat Williams and Sam Adams clog up the middle quite effectively.

 

Also remember in the 90's we had a smallish NT and we were constantly being run on up the middle. I would rather have big and beefy.

[Orton's Arm]

Stop agreeing with me. Its frightening.

Okay. Losman would be a lousy backup for a CFL team, while Holcomb is star material! Just kidding, btw.

 

One thing I'd like to add to this discussion is the importance of depth on the defensive line. If your defensive line has sufficient depth, you can get a good pass rush in the 4th quarter, and the run will be a lot less likely to open up in the second half.

[BuckeyeBill]

Probably the answer is that Jeff Wright couldn't stop the run very well and our big guys Washington/Williams/Adams... could.