If we still had DonaHO....

[ndirish1978]

Results talk and BS walks. He didn't re-sign the guys he needed to re-sign and he ignored the OL for too long. I really don't fault the signings he did make, but in the day to day operations he failed. We jad back to back coaches that couldn't coach their way out of a paper bag and no oline. 'Nough said. Take a breath and relax Zeff, it's the internet.

[Typical TBD Guy]

Based on his track record, he would have an off-season that would make the fans excited, raise the season ticket base and then completely fall flat when they actually played the games. He would miss the playoffs for five years in a row, go through three starting QBs and two HCs. Then he would get fired and get the media to blame Ralph Wilson.

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It's amazing to me how some can still look back and reminisce about the TD Era. The Son of Satan truly had this message board fan base under his spell...

 

Yes, TD may have been an excellent micromanager who could have squeezed that Moulds 5th for a 4th or even 3rd out of Texas, but on the macro level he would have squandered that pick on a talented skill player with zero character and who is afraid of the Buffalo cold weather.

 

History will judge TD harshly, probably a notch below Stew Barber. We were the fourth worst NFL franchise during the past 5 seasons, despite playing in the salary cap era at a time when Ralph was more than willing to spend money on players. A big reason for this failure to win is because TD never had a coherent, consistent vision for success beyond the simple goal of "winning." One year we were a West Coast offense with a 46-Defense, in another we were a Power Running offense with a Zone Blitz D...

 

I don't know how history will judge Marv Levy as a GM, but so far at least he's consistently stuck to his guns about the type of players he wants: young, speedy, hard-working, high-character, guys with a major chip on their shoulder.

[Pyrite Gal]

Your analysis simply does not fit the reality of the situation in the following ways:

 

1. Under the CBA NC's contract with the Bills has not expired it has been unilaterally extended for a year by the Bills tender of a franchise tag. Even better, under the CBA, the Bills can even extend it another year if they choose next year by tagging him again.

 

NC's choices are to:

A. Play under the tag- The best deal for the Bills given the significant reduction in 06 of the CB franchise tag while at the same time the overall cap has gone up under the extended CBA. Under the tag, NC would be in FA next year and thus will need to produce for the Bills this year if he wants the #1 CB contract he says he deserves.

 

Throwing a hissy fit and not producing merely hurts his value and even being a cancer and a bad teammate hurts his value as well. Outside of him reaching the Pro Bowl level but failing to do that twice in a row (if this makes one a failed player much of the NFL is failed) this acquistion is all positive for TD.

 

2. Correct on Schobel it worked well.

 

3. The few good years if faint praise actually for a player so central to the Bills in his brief heyday that he was the featured picture on TSW. Do not forget that TD actually led the Bills toward creating an extra first day pick out of nothing by trading down our 1st rounder and still getting the first CB (NC) taken that year with the new pick.

 

The suggestion that he should have taken an OL player instead of Henry ignores several real occurences that year:

 

A. We needed a strting RB badly that year so what are your options if you do not take Henry.

B. Ol is crucial to the running game, but claims that TD ignored this in this draft is invalidated by him choosing two eventual Bills starters JJ and Sullivan in this draft. Who is this fantasy OL player you are refferring to, how does this new OL work with these three rookies you have drafted and how well does it do opening holes for Sean bryson.

C. The primary contribution of Henry to the Bills was probably being such a bad financial manager that he had to sell us an additional year of ownership for chump change. This additional year paid the benefits of one giving us the freedom to draft and sit WM for a year to rehab him and also to trade Henry for a 3rd rounder.

 

By far this pick manufactured out of nothing has brought production from Henry in his brief time here which justified the pick and the gift keeps on giving with being able to draft and rehab the fastest Bills RB to rush for 2000 yards in our history and we get a first day player this year. We need more failures like this one.

 

4. Itis a far more legitimate rap on TD to claim he drafte an injury prone player than to complain that he did not horribly overpay this injury prone player to keep him from SF. We were fortunate that his middlin choice by TD at best gave us 4 seasons where he appeared in about 3/4 pf the games (the 2 or 3 he missed his start each year plus the couple of games he got knocked out early due to a nick). Letting this miscreant go was a smart move by TD and is one he also should have done instead of resigning Bledsoe after his horrendous 2003.

 

TD did not capitalize on the 2001 talent, but this was not due to bad player acquisition and resigning decision IMHO is was because he hired a not ready for primetime HC who had non position coach Vinky managing the OL and is a defensive coach who had to can his first OC hire and then he replaced him Kevin Killdrive (TD foolishly allowed GW his choice when TD publicly said he was advocating the Bills get Tom Clements. TC did a very good job as OC in 2004 but even with his poor production in 2005 I think he was better than Kevin Killdrive (do you disagree?)

 

IMHO TD did a pretty good job drafting and a phenomenal job negotiating and acquiring players. However, he deserved to be canned because he seemed to manage the braintrust hiring mostly to make sure that he was never again canned by a guy he hired as happened to him with Cowher.

 

I'll grant that from a sheer talent evaluation standpoint, the 2001 draft was strong.  The first four picks all have gone on to have reasonable to good NFL careers.

 

But a lot of this success was wasted because TD didn't fit this draft into a bigger picture:

 

- Clements' contract has expired.  Will he remain with the Bills?  Would TD have franchised him, or would he have let him walk as Antoine Winfield did?

 

- Schobel is a success story.

 

- Henry did provide a few good years, but that 2nd round pick could have been used on the OL instead.

 

- Whatever success Jennings may find after year 4 of his career will help the 49ers, not the Bills.

 

When you get something right from a talent evaluation standpoint--as TD did in 2001--it's important to capitalize on this success.  TD didn't.

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[Orton's Arm]

Your analysis simply does not fit the reality of the situation in the following ways:

 

1. Under the CBA NC's contract with the Bills has not expired it has been unilaterally extended for a year by the Bills tender of a franchise tag. Even better, under the CBA, the Bills can even extend it another year if they choose next year by tagging him again.

Marv Levy is the one who slapped the franchise tag on Nate. Nonetheless, it's not clear whether Nate will be here for much longer, and this is largely due to TD's failure to extend his contract. I've generally seen an unwillingness on TD's part to give extensions to the players who have the most market value (Antoine Winfield, Clements, Jennings, etc.) You can't build a team unless you're willing to retain your own high-level, young players. TD wouldn't pay the price.

 

3. The few good years if faint praise actually for a player so central to the Bills in his brief heyday that he was the featured picture on TSW.

Nothing against Henry, but a 2nd round OL + Antowain Smith > Travis Henry. As for the 3rd round pick we got out of him at the end, the only reason we have that pick is luck. Who was to know that Travis would beg for a one-year extension based on poor financial management? I'll take the 3rd round pick, but I won't put it down to any brilliance on TD's part. Instead, TD seemed perfectly happy to go four and out with Henry, just as he did with Jennings.

 

4. Itis a far more legitimate rap on TD to claim he drafte an injury prone player than to complain that he did not horribly overpay this injury prone player to keep him from SF. 

Maybe TD's mistake was drafting an injury-prone guy like Jennings. Maybe his mistake was not giving Jennings an extension after year 2 or year 3. Either way, TD went four and out with Jennings.

TD did not capitalize on the 2001 talent, but this was not due to bad player acquisition and resigning decision IMHO is was because he hired a not ready for primetime HC who had non position coach Vinky managing the OL and is a defensive coach who had to can his first OC hire and then he replaced him Kevin Killdrive (TD foolishly allowed GW his choice when TD publicly said he was advocating the Bills get Tom Clements.

What a long sentence! I agree that the switch to a new offensive system may have had something to do with why TD quickly lost interest in Henry. But I don't see the coaching changes as being responsible for the failure to give extensions to Jennings or Clements.

[Orton's Arm]

Yes, TD may have been an excellent micromanager who could have squeezed that Moulds 5th for a 4th or even 3rd out of Texas, but on the macro level he would have squandered that pick on a talented skill player with zero character and who is afraid of the Buffalo cold weather.

You hit the nail on the head.

[BuffaloBilliever]

Marvcus Vick, or Surge Machine, with TD saying "Although Pepsi Machine was taken first, we couldn't pass up the potential of Surge"

 

Wait... they don't make Surge anymore cause it sucked...

[Guest dog14787]

He would trade our 1st to Green Bay for Brett Farve !

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And then trade Favre to Dallas for Bledsoe because dog-on-it we screwed that one up.

 

 

Jerry Jones accepts the deal as long as we Swap TO straight up for Lee Evans.

 

Say's TO"s alright but Favre and TO might get into fist fights everyday!!!!

[Dawgg]

Wonderful post.

 

It's nice to see some common sense from time to time.

 

 

It's amazing to me how some can still look back and reminisce about the TD Era. The Son of Satan truly had this message board fan base under his spell...

 

Yes, TD may have been an excellent micromanager who could have squeezed that Moulds 5th for a 4th or even 3rd out of Texas, but on the macro level he would have squandered that pick on a talented skill player with zero character and who is afraid of the Buffalo cold weather.

 

History will judge TD harshly, probably a notch below Stew Barber. We were the fourth worst NFL franchise during the past 5 seasons, despite playing in the salary cap era at a time when Ralph was more than willing to spend money on players. A big reason for this failure to win is because TD never had a coherent, consistent vision for success beyond the simple goal of "winning." One year we were a West Coast offense with a 46-Defense, in another we were a Power Running offense with a Zone Blitz D...

 

I don't know how history will judge Marv Levy as a GM, but so far at least he's consistently stuck to his guns about the type of players he wants: young, speedy, hard-working, high-character, guys with a major chip on their shoulder.

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[Guest dog14787]

Wonderful post.

 

It's nice to see some common sense from time to time.

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I would have to say some of TD's picks in all honesty. Levy may thank him for one day. Mcgahee , Evans, Losman all come to mind.

 

I'm sure Mcgahee (who is one of my favorite players) reminds Levy of Thurman Thomas.

 

 

The Buffalo Bill's may be young but are not lacking in the talent department thanks to TD.

 

He just forgot about the dog-on O-line!!!!

[Dibs]

I would have to say some of TD's picks in all honesty. Levy may thank him for one day. Mcgahee , Evans, Losman all come to mind.

 

I'm sure Mcgahee (who is one of my favorite players) reminds Levy of  Thurman Thomas.

The Buffalo Bill's may be young but are not lacking in the talent department thanks to TD.

 

He just forgot about the dog-on O-line!!!!

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I don't even think he forgot about the O-line.

He unwisely invested a #4 pick into MW.

He brought in Villarrial & Teague who have given good play.

He drafted Jennings who played at a high level.

He drafted Preston who shows some promise.

Gandy & Anderson were rated at 70 & 72 respectively last year(by Scouts. Inc) when we got them in which put both into the 'Good Starter' category.

He gave Peters a chance when no other would.

 

His biggest errors are noted previously in this thread....consistency of plan, coach selection, letting go of the wrong players...etc, etc.

Edited April 22, 2006 by Dibs

[Guest dog14787]

I don't even think he forgot about the O-line.

He unwisely invested a #4 pick into MW.

He brought in Villarrial & Teague who have given good play.

He drafted Preston who shows some promise.

Gandy & Anderson were rated at 70 & 72 respectively last year(by Scouts. Inc) when we got them in which put both into the 'Good Starter' category.

He gave Peters a chance when no other would.

 

His biggest errors are noted previously in this thread....consistency of plan, coach selection, letting go of the wrong players...etc, etc.

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Yes, you can't forget about big Mike Williams!!! So I guess TD didn't forget the O-line, he did fatten it up a bit.

 

Mercy!!!!!!!!

[Pyrite Gal]

Marv Levy is the one who slapped the franchise tag on Nate.  Nonetheless, it's not clear whether Nate will be here for much longer, and this is largely due to TD's failure to extend his contract.  I've generally seen an unwillingness on TD's part to give extensions to the players who have the most market value (Antoine Winfield, Clements, Jennings, etc.)  You can't build a team unless you're willing to retain your own high-level, young players.  TD wouldn't pay the price.

Nothing against Henry, but a 2nd round OL + Antowain Smith > Travis Henry.  As for the 3rd round pick we got out of him at the end, the only reason we have that pick is luck.  Who was to know that Travis would beg for a one-year extension based on poor financial management?  I'll take the 3rd round pick, but I won't put it down to any brilliance on TD's part.  Instead, TD seemed perfectly happy to go four and out with Henry, just as he did with Jennings.

Maybe TD's mistake was drafting an injury-prone guy like Jennings.  Maybe his mistake was not giving Jennings an extension after year 2 or year 3.  Either way, TD went four and out with Jennings.

 

What a long sentence!  I agree that the switch to a new offensive system may have had something to do with why TD quickly lost interest in Henry.  But I don't see the coaching changes as being responsible for the failure to give extensions to Jennings or Clements.

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Sorry, but I still do not think your take corresponds with the simple reality.

 

1. True, Marv tagged NC, but is there virtually anyone in the Bill's fan world who did not think that tagging him was the obvious thing to do given the fall in the CB franchise tag amount and the rise in the overall cap amount we were working with. I and everyone else would have called for TDs head if he had somehow escaped his deserved firing and not tagged NC. Clearly, TD had not extended NC and was using the threat of tagging him (as Marv is doing now) to NC demands for a long term extension down or simply will pay him the franchise amount and force Nate to produce in 06 or go into the next FA round coming off two disappointing seasons in a row. I think we are in better shape and will likely get more out of NC if we do not resign him and actually have him play 06 under the pressure of being in a contract year.

 

If NC plays like the best CB in the league in 06 I have no problem paying top dollar to extend a player who has made the Pro Bowl two of the last three years (I assume if he plays so great he will get the Pro Bowl accolade). If he makes such outrageous demands its impossible to sign him I say fine and tag him again next year.

 

Its the height of technocratic exaggeration to some how fault TD for not extending NC. He was under contract when TD was canned, under contract when we tagged him and he is under contract this season unless he decides to leave the game. To claim that TD let him go because he was not resigned but the Bills never lost the sole right to him under TD's watch is simply an incorrect description of this if one insists on trying to look at the definitions in some hypertechnical way actually. More importantly it simply does not correspond to the reality of the situation under the rules of the CBA.

 

2. As far as an unwillingness on TDs part to keep his own, if you want to make this point you need to do better than the examples you provide.

 

A. Winfield- The situation was that TD had actually set aside some cap room to resign Winfield prior to the 04 season and was negotiating with AW's agents on a deal. However, the Pats unexpectedly had Milloy decide not to re-sign with them because all the cap room BB had left for him was a few hundred thousand less than he was asking.

 

TD used most of the cap room which was what AW and the Bills were negotiating over to instead sign Milloy. He overpaid Milloy what he was worth as a player, but made a bid consistent with what the market was offering him as Chicago also needed a safety and had cap room.

 

When the '04 season ended, AW hit the FA market and having had a solid season in 04 and the Bills having loss the leverage of the previous FA period of signing AW to a lower amount and thus relieving him of any risk for playing 04 his asking price skyrocketed.

 

The good news for the Bills though was that 4th round selection at CB under TD McGee was coming into his own and in fact made the 04 Pro Bowl due to his kick return magic. The Bills were easily in a position to let AW walk because we had our starting CBs on the roster with both of them having made the Pro Bowl for their 04 work. Add to that the Bills had Thomas before he got hurt, Greer coming along as a youngster and had even signed former Pro Bowl CB try Vincent to play safety for us.

 

Would you advocate that we should have extended AW prior to 04 even though doing this would mean we did not sign Milloy and Coy Wire starts at SS because the two mean we reached agreement with to play SS ahead of Wire, Chad Cota and Ainsley Battle both agreed to sign with us but then up and retired.

 

Extending AW at the cost of having Wire start again at SS would have been a huge error. Resigning AW when we had two CBs coming off of Pro Bowl seasons and had signed a former Pro Bowl CB to play safety for us for even the contract the Jets offered him (that he agreed tp amd remeged on) and then for the amount the market gave him in the Vikes contract would have simply been nuts.

 

B. Clements- As I said above he was still a Bill when TD was deservedly canned (he was not free of a Bills contract officially until FA began) and not only had TD obviously used the threat of tagging him in negotiations over an extension, but even though Marv did tag him TD would have been a fool and shot if he did not follow through with his threat to tag NC.

 

C. Jennings- As I said, if you want to accuse TD of an error it was in drafting this talented but injury prone LT. It would have been the height of stupidity for TD to extend this oft injured in different parts of his body (his ankle sprains, shoulder injury, concussion and other nicks is what defines injury prone to me) player to a long-term deal. Fortunately, it was SF who did the foolish thing and gave him a big contract and they paid for this immediately with him ending up on the IR early this season.

 

I agree that TD did not resign several players at the end of their contracts. However, for the three examples you give, good thing he did not do this in two cases and in the third case the player is still a Bill so you are wrong for blaming TD for losing him.

 

When you add into this that TD did in fact extend the contracts of Schobel and McGee (and I believe Crowell though I am not sure of the timing of this and whether TD was gone and Marv did the right thing here) on his watch.

 

The idea that TD is incapable of extending his own or made bad choices regarding AW and Jennings is simply incorrect.

 

TD deserved to get canned for not producing results like playoff appearances in his five years here. However, you gotta admit that Vinky was not a great OL coach, that hiring Ruel to replace him was no real upgrade and that Kevin Gilbride sucked and that it was a real problem because his hire GW has no offensive football skills.

 

The FA that I think he probably legitimately can be faulted for not resigning when it would have likely been better for the Bills if they had was Pat Williams last year. However, as I sense the D really gave up when they saw that the Bills had decided to use last season as pre-season for Losman rather than put their best (though pathetic offense on the field with Bledsoe at QB, even returning all 11 of the #2 D in the league would not have produced the same result last year as the year before.

 

It does take 2 to make a deal and Phat Pat's whining really mask him sharing the blame with TD for not just getting it done. Yet even this mistake really is just an exception to generally good player negotiating and signing he did with TKO, Adams, Vincent. Milloy, Schobel, WM. taking advantage of Henry and then trading him, trading rather than resigning PP, etc.

 

His fatal problem we suffered from has generally been with coaches and not with players. He was not perfect with players (he should have gone after some stud FA OL players in my book), but he was pretty good, but in the revisionist history of folks piling on some posters seem to want to overlook the really good reasons for firing him to actually blame this on an area where he had assessment miscues like MW but these were not outlandish moves at the time and these no more than normal amount of mistakes should not obscure the facts about the things he did well.

[ajzepp]

 

His fatal problem we suffered from has generally been with coaches and not with players.  He was not perfect with players (he should have gone after some stud FA OL players in my book), but he was pretty good, but in the revisionist history of folks piling on some posters seem to want to overlook the really good reasons for firing him to actually blame this on an area where he had assessment miscues like MW but these were not outlandish moves at the time and these no more than normal amount of mistakes should not obscure the facts about the things he did well.

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Your last paragraph is exactly how I feel. I do wish TD would have had one more year, but I cant' defend his firing anymore. But some people on here - some of the more fickle on TBD - want to make him out to be some horrible failure. TD was anything but that.

[Dibs]

Your last paragraph is exactly how I feel. I do wish TD would have had one more year, but I cant' defend his firing anymore. But some people on here - some of the more fickle on TBD - want to make him out to be some horrible failure. TD was anything but that.

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I disagree....in the end, after 5 years, he failed to build a playoff team.

He failed.

He was a failure(though not horrible).

However, he certainly does not deserve to be demonized as he has been on TBD.

 

Just because he ultimately failed in the overall goal, does not mean he failed in all areas.

 

Strangely, I feel he succeeded in a majority of areas but the negatives obviously outweighed the positives.

[ajzepp]

I disagree....in the end, after 5 years, he failed to build a playoff team. 

He failed.

He was a failure(though not horrible).

However, he certainly does not deserve to be demonized as he has been on TBD.

 

Just because he ultimately failed in the overall goal, does not mean he failed in all areas.

 

Strangely, I feel he succeeded in a majority of areas but the negatives obviously outweighed the positives.

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I think we're arguing semantics here......He failed to build a playoff team, yes. There were aspects of his job where he failed. But there were also a lot of areas where he did a great job. My point is that some people on here want to make him out to be some guy that came in here and just screwed everything up. That's not what happened at all. TD didn't get the job done, plain and simple.

[Dibs]

I think we're arguing semantics here......He failed to build a playoff team, yes. There were aspects of his job where he failed. But there were also a lot of areas where he did a great job. My point is that some people on here want to make him out to be some guy that came in here and just screwed everything up. That's not what happened at all. TD didn't get the job done, plain and simple.

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I'm with you now....totally agree

[ajzepp]

I'm with you now....totally agree 

667387[/snapback]

 

lol

[Nanker]

LenDale White would be the Bettis-type back he needed to complete his dream offense.

[Sisyphean Bills]

Sorry, but I still do not think your take corresponds with the simple reality.

 

1. True, Marv tagged NC, but is there virtually anyone in the Bill's fan world who did not think that tagging him was the obvious thing to do given the fall in the CB franchise tag amount and the rise in the overall cap  amount we were working with.  I and everyone else would have called for TDs head if he had somehow escaped his deserved firing and not tagged NC. blah, blah ...

667361[/snapback]

 

I don't think you should use phrases such as "simple reality" and then proceed to argue with someone about what Donahoe may or may not have done in some hypothetical alternate realities.

 

Back in this reality: the facts are pretty clear. Most of the draft picks Donahoe made in his first few years in Buffalo are already long gone as well as every last one of the veterans. Given that, it's hard to see what his building process was accomplishing.

[Sisyphean Bills]

Your last paragraph is exactly how I feel. I do wish TD would have had one more year, but I cant' defend his firing anymore. But some people on here - some of the more fickle on TBD - want to make him out to be some horrible failure. TD was anything but that.

667380[/snapback]

 

Just curious, but what is your definition of horrible failure? I mean, as far as on-field performance, there are not many teams worse than the Donahoe Bills during his run. Would the team have had to go 0-80 during his reign for him to be considered a failure?

 

BTW, I don't see anyone saying Donahoe didn't do a few things right. But, he is still a failure and was deservedly fired.