If we still had DonaHO....

[alg]

I'm going to go against the grain a bit here and defend TD on his Round 1 decisions over the years...

 

2001: Traded down for Nate Clements: hardly a shocking move, and it turned out to be one of the better moves he made during his time as GM both in terms of the decision to trade down and in terms of the player selected.

 

2002: Well, Big Mike as we know turned out to be a bust. However, he was hardly a shocking pick, and seemed like a safe one at the time. TD desperately wanted to trade down but couldn't find a partner.

 

2003: Managing to steal a 1st rounder from Atlanta in exchange for Peerless was a great move. Some would argue that Willis was a luxury pick, but if the team had elected to pick based on need, they would have selected Chris Kelsay, whom they ultimately grabbed in the 2nd round anyway. Besides, based on what we've seen from Henry since then, you'd have to agree that TD was forward-thinking in looking for a potential improvement. Considering the forfeiture of the original 1st rounder for Bledsoe, who gave us a great 2002 season (which inflated Peerless' value), we can say that we traded Price (the following year) plus 7 spots in the first round (the following year) in exchange for Bledsoe. Or, if you'd rather, we traded Price and Ty Warren for Bledsoe and Willis McGahee. I think you make that deal every time.

 

2004: Lee Evans was hardly a surprise pick, as he is the guy most scouts expected us to take. It's still early, but so far he seems worthy of the selection. The surprise that year was the decision to move up to get JP. Obviously the verdict is still out (See below).

 

2005: Our first round pick was actually JP Losman, whom we traded a 2nd and 4th for the right to get him a year early. There is little doubt in my mind that the team would have gone QB here if they hadn't done so the year before. The scouts identified an exceptionally week QB class in 2005, which is why they elected to gamble on JP in 2004. Again, with just 8 starts under his belt, it is too early to tell whether or not he willpan out. But he has no less chance of doing so than Jason Campbell or Aaron Rogers, the 2 QBs that may have been there for us. In fact, with a limited sample size, Losman looked BETTER than last year's #1 overall draft pick, Alex Smith. Being that the Bills don't have as much tied up (money-wise) as the Niners do in Smith, Buffalo is in a better position to cut bait if the front office determines that JP isn't the guy. The criticism for this draft hinges on the decision to draft tiny Roscoe Parrish in the 2ND round. Again, we will have to see how that plays out, but my guess is that TD knew that Moulds was not going to be back in 2006 and was making a contingency plan.

 

Clearly a mixed bag... However, even in the cases where we missed (i.e. Mike Williams), it wasn't as if the decision at the time was a crazy one. Still, TD seemed to enjoy the drama of draft day. In fact, he made at least one trade in every draft up until last season. My suspicion is that we'll find Marv and co. to be more "boring" in their moves. Of course, sometimes boring isn't bad.

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Good, fair post. Seems like everyone wants to demonize him, but the guy had flair. More draft day drama then just about any GM Buffalo has ever had. I will miss his trades, his working of the board. Marv will bore us to death. Lets hope he can do as well as, say, Butler who was no friend to trading.

[ajzepp]

Good, fair post.  Seems like everyone wants to demonize him, but the guy had flair.  More draft day drama then just about any GM Buffalo has ever had.  I will miss his trades, his working of the board.  Marv will bore us to death.  Lets hope he can do as well as, say, Butler who was no friend to trading.

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Yeah, if there's one thing you can say for sure about TD, he always made the offseasons not only interesting, but interesting enough that we had a LOT of hope going into the last few seasons he was here. The guy took his shots, and I dig that. They didn't work out, and that's why he's gone.....but the guy played the game better than most.

[alg]

Something just occured to me. Not only did he make it more interesting for us. It seemed that we were pretty much front and center in the off season as a team on the move. He was a mover and a shaker that garned national attention.

 

It really is a shame he had to blow himself up. But I like how ajzepp put it:

 

"The guy took his shots, and I dig that."

 

That sums it up pretty nicely, doesn't it? Something we should all strive for, I dare say. Maybe this understanding can help the guy writing the next "he would take the high motor white guy" post. Maybe that guy will say "forgetaboutit" and leave it in the eithers of cyber space. Where it belongs...

[ajzepp]

Something just occured to me.  Not only did he make it more interesting for us.  It seemed that we were pretty much front and center in the off season as a team on the move.  He was a mover and a shaker that garned national attention.

 

It really is a shame he had to blow himself up.  But I like how ajzepp put it:

 

"The guy took his shots, and I dig that."

 

That sums it up pretty nicely, doesn't it?  Something we should all strive for, I dare say.  Maybe this understanding can help the guy writing the next "he would take the high motor white guy" post.  Maybe that guy will say "forgetaboutit" and leave it in the eithers of cyber space.  Where it belongs...

664616[/snapback]

 

It's nice to see someone else who has some respect for TD. I'm on record as saying I can't really defend him anymore since we never got the results, but that doesn't mean I can't still admire the guy. And you're right, we WERE front and center every offseason he was here. For someone who lives way far away from Upstate NY, that was AWESOME, man. I remember each of the past few offseasons like they were yesterday. I remember the 2003 draft, I was at work at the hospital and it was a slow day. The maintenance guy was a huge Cowboys fan, and he and I would sneak into an empty room, put on ESPN, and sneak back and forth to and from the room as often as we could. We sat there with our eyes glued to the television talking about our respective drafts, as well as what other teams were doing. I felt proud with TD at the helm, cause I knew he wouldn't take any sh--, and I knew he probably had something up his sleeve. I remember TBD when we were waiting to see if the Bengals would match the Takeo offer. Just a lot of exciting stuff that gave us all hope for when September rolled around. I just wish the results would have turned out more favorably, cause I think TD could have really been here a long time.

[Dawgg]

OK, let me get this straight: we should all strive for making moves that make the headlines but yield mixed rusults?

 

No thanks.

 

I would much rather be a "boring" team that stockpiles talent not only in the first round but in the middle rounds of the draft.

 

I'll give Donahoe this: his 2001 draft was superb. He did everything right, trading down to get Clements, picking up Henry, Schobel and Jennings in the 2nd and 3rd rounds respectively. After that, however, his drafts left much to be desired. The sign of a good GM and scouting department is one that finds solid contributors in the middle rounds. McGee and Crowell turned out well... but overall, the drafts were subpar in that regard. Perhaps that's why TD is looking for work?

 

That sums it up pretty nicely, doesn't it?  Something we should all strive for, I dare say.  Maybe this understanding can help the guy writing the next "he would take the high motor white guy" post.  Maybe that guy will say "forgetaboutit" and leave it in the eithers of cyber space.  Where it belongs...

664616[/snapback]

[Dawgg]

This is hilarious.

 

I can't believe a GM is being admired for the "hype" he generated in the offseason.

 

There was once upon a time when the Redskins signed everyone under the sun -- Bruce Smith, Deion Sanders, Lavar Arrington, Brad Johnson, etc.. and they were the talk of the offseason. Year after year, they lost.

 

But I suppose we should admire them for their efforts.

And you're right, we WERE front and center every offseason he was here. For someone who lives way far away from Upstate NY, that was AWESOME, man.

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[ndirish1978]

OK, let me get this straight:  we should all strive for making moves that make the headlines but yield mixed rusults?

 

No thanks.

 

I would much rather be a "boring" team that stockpiles talent not only in the first round but in the middle rounds of the draft.

 

I'll give Donahoe this:  his 2001 draft was superb.  He did everything right, trading down to get Clements, picking up Henry, Schobel and Jennings in the 2nd and 3rd rounds respectively.  After that, however, his drafts left much to be desired.  The sign of a good GM and scouting department is one that finds solid contributors in the middle rounds.  McGee and Crowell turned out well... but overall, the drafts were subpar in that regard.  Perhaps that's why TD is looking for work?

664653[/snapback]

 

 

Excellent post. All that hype in the offseason failedto produce on the field. TD=Keyshawn, a lot of talk and not a lot of results.

[ajzepp]

Here's a novel idea, Dawgg....try reading things in context instead of taking one piece of a post and putting your own spin on it.

[ajzepp]

Excellent post. All that hype in the offseason failedto produce on the field. TD=Keyshawn, a lot of talk and not a lot of results.

664668[/snapback]

 

There's nothing excellent about the post whatsoever. Just another hindsight warrior spouting off. We all know the results weren't there.....hence TD's departure. I think some of you need to go back and read some of the posts from the past few offseasons before you start talking about how it was all hype. The moves TD made looked good.....some even GREAT when they were made. To just conveniently forget that makes it hard to respect your post(s)

[Dawgg]

I wouldn't judge the success by the posts during those offseasons. In fact, there were numerous people complaining about TD's drafts immediately afterwards, but they were outnumbered by those fans that gush about every move TD made.

 

I think TD proved one thing: he's great at identifying "players" and acquiring them. He didn't do so great at assembling a team.

 

I think some of you need to go back and read some of the posts from the past few offseasons before you start talking about how it was all hype. The moves TD made looked good.....some even GREAT when they were made. To just conveniently forget that makes it hard to respect your post(s)

664673[/snapback]

[alg]

I think you miss the point dawgg. That TD swung for the fences, that he "went for it" wasn't just about a popularity contest. The guy was a first rate wheeler and dealer. One of the best the NFL has had in awhile.

 

TD is no longer here because a) the team didn't win, and b) he pissed off Ralph with the sign business at the end of last year. He is not NOT here because he was bad at his job. Dare I say, if he was still here the Moulds 5th would be a 3rd.

 

People like to trash his drafts, but when we picked MW it was in a weak draft with plenty of other busts. He was hamstrung by the slot. Look back to the Henry draft. Sheer brilliance. The WM wasn't so bad either, eh?

 

But once people make up their mind about something at TSW, you are either too good to be human, or actual human excrement. This is not the mecca of balanced thinking. It is the home of the dog-pile.

[Mile High]

Production-wise, we haven't upgraded the position yet, considering the year Travis had.  Now, do I think McGahee is a better back than Travis?  Yes, but he has to show and prove.  Coming into minicamp and showing that he's ready to run w/ the same passion and attitude he showed 2 years ago will go a long way towards showing and proving.  If that doesn't happen, Willis will continue to give us a 1,000 yard rusher (barely) whose timid running style will make him useless in the red zone, like last season.  It's up to him to show and prove, which I think he'll do this year.

664531[/snapback]

Yeah I'd be all kinds of rah-rah too if I had to go out there and run behind the oline that the Bills have put out on the field for the last two years. If this oline gets it's act together Willis will run for 1,500+. Write it down kids.

[Orton's Arm]

I'll give Donahoe this:  his 2001 draft was superb.  He did everything right, trading down to get Clements, picking up Henry, Schobel and Jennings in the 2nd and 3rd rounds respectively. 

Look at the long-term results from the 2001 draft:

 

Round 1: Nate Clements. Result: contract expired after 5 years.

Round 2a: Aaron Schobel. Result: solid starter locked up long-term.

Round 2b: Travis Henry. Result: failed to provide enough of an upgrade over Antowain Smith to have been worth a 2nd round pick.

Round 3: Jonas Jennings. Result: Jennings was allowed to hit free agency after just four years. Lost to San Francisco.

Rounds 4 - 7: Brandon Spoon, Marques Sullivan, Tony Driver, Dan O'Leary, Jimmy Williams, Reggie Germany, Tyrone Robertson. Result: none.

 

After five years, the lone unblemished success story of this draft is Aaron Schobel.

[Dibs]

Look at the long-term results from the 2001 draft:

 

Round 1: Nate Clements.  Result: contract expired after 5 years.

Round 2a: Aaron Schobel.  Result: solid starter locked up long-term.

Round 2b: Travis Henry.  Result: failed to provide enough of an upgrade over Antowain Smith to have been worth a 2nd round pick.

Round 3: Jonas Jennings.  Result: Jennings was allowed to hit free agency after just four years.  Lost to San Francisco.

Rounds 4 - 7: Brandon Spoon, Marques Sullivan, Tony Driver, Dan O'Leary, Jimmy Williams, Reggie Germany, Tyrone Robertson.  Result: none.

 

After five years, the lone unblemished success story of this draft is Aaron Schobel.

665102[/snapback]

 

Clements... could still sign a multi-deal & be here for life....is a top player!!!!

Henry...made 2 pro-bowls & we recouped a 3rd rounder(could get a top DT)

Jennings...was considered a good starter(look how much S.F. gave him), started heaps of games for us.

 

I don't mind TD being knocked for not looking after the lines, his bad pick of coaches, his letting go of the wrong players, his bad handling of personel etc etc etc.....

but

I always thought his drafting & free agent acquisitions were pretty good.

[Orton's Arm]

I think you miss the point dawgg.  That TD swung for the fences, that he "went for it" wasn't just about a popularity contest.  The guy was a first rate wheeler and dealer.  One of the best the NFL has had in awhile. 

 

TD is no longer here because a) the team didn't win, and b) he pissed off Ralph with the sign business at the end of last year.  He is not NOT here because he was bad at his job.  Dare I say, if he was still here the Moulds 5th would be a 3rd.

 

People like to trash his drafts, but when we picked MW  it was in a weak draft with plenty of other busts.  He was hamstrung by the slot.  Look back to the Henry draft.  Sheer brilliance.  The WM wasn't so bad either, eh?

 

But once people make up their mind about something at TSW, you are either too good to be human, or actual human excrement.  This is not the mecca of balanced thinking.  It is the home of the dog-pile.

My main problem with TD was that he never acted like a man with a vision of what he wanted to accomplish. Instead, we saw a little of this, a little of that. Actions that seemed like a good idea at the time, only to backfire later.

 

Contrast this to the Patriots. First, Belichick started by identifying the type of man he wanted on his teams: smart, tough, hard working, passionate about football. Had TD had a similar vision, he never would have touched Mike Williams--or a lot of the other players he took.

 

Next, Belichick created stability for the offensive and defensive schemes being employed. TD had the opportunity to do this too. When he came on board, the Bills' defense was one of the best-coached in the league. All TD had to do was hire an offensively-minded coach who would fix the offense while leaving the defensive coaching alone. Instead, the final four coaching candidates for 2001 were all defensive men. Because of the switch to the 46 defense, much of the defensive talent Butler had acquired had to be let go. Moreover, this switch worsened the quality of the Bills' defensive coaching, while doing nothing to solve their offensive coaching woes.

 

Belichick drafted well, and made sure his most successful draft picks spent their best years in New England. Because of this, the Patriots have a core of young, highly productive players they can build around. If Belichick let a guy go for salary cap reasons, it was usually a guy whose best years were behind him, but who still wanted to be paid like he was in his prime. Lawyer Milloy, Ty Law, and Drew Bledsoe come to mind.

 

In contrast, TD tried to save cap space by letting some of his young, core players leave in free agency. Antoine Winfield and Jonas Jennings are good examples. The cap space TD saved on those guys he used to overpay players like Lawyer Milloy. Instead of building through the draft, TD tried to use free agency and traded draft picks to quickly assemble a winning veteran team. These veterans got old in a hurry, resulting in the 2005 collapse.

 

If the Bills lacked an identity, it was because TD lacked a vision. This was why he failed as GM.

[Dawgg]

True, but Travis was a solid pick in the second round and was a key player for the Bills for a few years. Clements, Shobel and Jennings played at a high level in Bills uni. I think that turning the 13 overall pick into Clements, Henry and Jennings was a very solid move on Donahoe's part. I'll give him credit for that.

 

His subsequent drafts? Not even worth discussing.

 

Look at the long-term results from the 2001 draft:

 

Round 1: Nate Clements.  Result: contract expired after 5 years.

Round 2a: Aaron Schobel.  Result: solid starter locked up long-term.

Round 2b: Travis Henry.  Result: failed to provide enough of an upgrade over Antowain Smith to have been worth a 2nd round pick.

Round 3: Jonas Jennings.  Result: Jennings was allowed to hit free agency after just four years.  Lost to San Francisco.

Rounds 4 - 7: Brandon Spoon, Marques Sullivan, Tony Driver, Dan O'Leary, Jimmy Williams, Reggie Germany, Tyrone Robertson.  Result: none.

 

After five years, the lone unblemished success story of this draft is Aaron Schobel.

665102[/snapback]

[Orton's Arm]

True, but Travis was a solid pick in the second round and was a key player for the Bills for a few years. Clements, Shobel and Jennings played at a high level in Bills uni.  I think that turning the 13 overall pick into Clements, Henry and Jennings was a very solid move on Donahoe's part.  I'll give him credit for that.

665137[/snapback]

I'll grant that from a sheer talent evaluation standpoint, the 2001 draft was strong. The first four picks all have gone on to have reasonable to good NFL careers.

 

But a lot of this success was wasted because TD didn't fit this draft into a bigger picture:

 

- Clements' contract has expired. Will he remain with the Bills? Would TD have franchised him, or would he have let him walk as Antoine Winfield did?

 

- Schobel is a success story.

 

- Henry did provide a few good years, but that 2nd round pick could have been used on the OL instead.

 

- Whatever success Jennings may find after year 4 of his career will help the 49ers, not the Bills.

 

When you get something right from a talent evaluation standpoint--as TD did in 2001--it's important to capitalize on this success. TD didn't.

[Pyrite Gal]

I'm going to go against the grain a bit here and defend TD on his Round 1 decisions over the years...

 

2001: Traded down for Nate Clements: hardly a shocking move, and it turned out to be one of the better moves he made during his time as GM both in terms of the decision to trade down and in terms of the player selected.

 

2002: Well, Big Mike as we know turned out to be a bust. However, he was hardly a shocking pick, and seemed like a safe one at the time. TD desperately wanted to trade down but couldn't find a partner.

 

2003: Managing to steal a 1st rounder from Atlanta in exchange for Peerless was a great move. Some would argue that Willis was a luxury pick, but if the team had elected to pick based on need, they would have selected Chris Kelsay, whom they ultimately grabbed in the 2nd round anyway. Besides, based on what we've seen from Henry since then, you'd have to agree that TD was forward-thinking in looking for a potential improvement. Considering the forfeiture of the original 1st rounder for Bledsoe, who gave us a great 2002 season (which inflated Peerless' value), we can say that we traded Price (the following year) plus 7 spots in the first round (the following year) in exchange for Bledsoe. Or, if you'd rather, we traded Price and Ty Warren for Bledsoe and Willis McGahee. I think you make that deal every time.

 

2004: Lee Evans was hardly a surprise pick, as he is the guy most scouts expected us to take. It's still early, but so far he seems worthy of the selection. The surprise that year was the decision to move up to get JP. Obviously the verdict is still out (See below).

 

2005: Our first round pick was actually JP Losman, whom we traded a 2nd and 4th for the right to get him a year early. There is little doubt in my mind that the team would have gone QB here if they hadn't done so the year before. The scouts identified an exceptionally week QB class in 2005, which is why they elected to gamble on JP in 2004. Again, with just 8 starts under his belt, it is too early to tell whether or not he willpan out. But he has no less chance of doing so than Jason Campbell or Aaron Rogers, the 2 QBs that may have been there for us. In fact, with a limited sample size, Losman looked BETTER than last year's #1 overall draft pick, Alex Smith. Being that the Bills don't have as much tied up (money-wise) as the Niners do in Smith, Buffalo is in a better position to cut bait if the front office determines that JP isn't the guy. The criticism for this draft hinges on the decision to draft tiny Roscoe Parrish in the 2ND round. Again, we will have to see how that plays out, but my guess is that TD knew that Moulds was not going to be back in 2006 and was making a contingency plan.

 

Clearly a mixed bag... However, even in the cases where we missed (i.e. Mike Williams), it wasn't as if the decision at the time was a crazy one. Still, TD seemed to enjoy the drama of draft day. In fact, he made at least one trade in every draft up until last season. My suspicion is that we'll find Marv and co. to be more "boring" in their moves. Of course, sometimes boring isn't bad.

664446[/snapback]

 

Right on target. Iys the internet and its ffun in part because we can feel free to ignore reality when we want, It seems to me the facts are that though TD deserved io get canned because he went five years as GM without making the playoffs during his time,

 

However, my sense is that his fatal flaws were pretty much defined by his making a horrible hire for his first HC (it is likely as best I can tell because he wanted to hire and HC who did not eventually run him out of town as Cowher did so he hired a guy he knew he could beat if it came down to it, further, he seemed quite willing to let GW screw up as long as he did not get blamed).

 

Yet, though TD deserved to get canned he actually did a fairly good job drafting folks and he was one of the best at reading the market and signing FAs,

 

One would think that Buffalo is a town where no player would want to go from the chip on the shoulder sad sacking we often see on TSW. Yet, in real life we routinely seemed to get FAs like TKO, NFLPA Pres Vincent and a host of others to come here with negotiations by TD and he got folks like Adams here seemingly for less money than other teams offered.

 

As far as drafting goes, MW was clearly a badly flawed choice, however, he wasn't even the biggest bust in that draft and dew if any GMs have no clinkers at all. On the plus side there are the items you point to and him actually having a record of getting pretty good players here but hiring idiots like HW as an HC and Kevin Killdrive as an OC to design a system for these players.

 

Was TD perfect? No,

 

Giwever, was he one of the worst at drafting or player acquisition? No to that as well and actually a number of his player moves were among the best during the salary cap era.

 

The most amazing thing about TD was how he could be so good at many facets of being a GM (the business deals like the move to St. John Fisher, the ticket deal with Wegmans and generally moving management of the team into the 20th century finally were top notch GM work) and still produce such bad results in terms of racking up Ws.

[Sisyphean Bills]

Yeah, if there's one thing you can say for sure about TD, he always made the offseasons not only interesting, but interesting enough that we had a LOT of hope going into the last few seasons he was here. The guy took his shots, and I dig that. They didn't work out, and that's why he's gone.....but the guy played the game better than most.

664586[/snapback]

 

Yeah, if they only handed out Super Bowl rings for off-season "flair" then Donahoe would have been our Vince Lombardi.

[Arkady Renko]

Based on his track record, he would have an off-season that would make the fans excited, raise the season ticket base and then completely fall flat when they actually played the games. He would miss the playoffs for five years in a row, go through three starting QBs and two HCs. Then he would get fired and get the media to blame Ralph Wilson.