Rethinking Greed

[Kelly the Dog]

A great deal of the bitching, er, posting lately hasn't made a lot of logical sense to me for a lot of reasons, but the biggest it seems is the concept of greed. I don't know this for a fact but it seems to me, guys like Snyder are the last ones in the league to want the Bills out of Buffalo.

 

Greedy owners has somehow been transferred to making the most money, hence, forcing the smaller market teams out of their markets. But I don't know of any owner in the NFL who is really out there trying to "make" the most money. Especially Snyder is known for spending the most money, not making a profit. His greed comes from trying to buy a Championship. He would love the Bills to stay in Buffalo because he thinks he will be able to outspend them, not out-profit them. So the new breed of owners aren't really out to sabotage the smaller market teams and drive them out of town, they like them just where they are. They aren't trying to make the most money for the leaague with TV revenues in big cities, they are trying to pull in the most money for themselves so they can spend the most money on themselves.

 

Robert Kraft is going to find out soon enough that his winning strategy isn't going to be sustainable and he will need to spend.

 

The NFL, on the other hand, a wholly different entity and problem, wants to maximize their product. That doesn't necessarily mean they want the 32 top cities with the 32 biggest market shares. They love Green Bay and Buffalo because it is good for the game and the league. They want to find a way to get the best of both worlds, getting the maximum viewership but keeping the league the way it is. They don't really want the Bills out of Buffalo either.

 

Ralph doesn't either.

 

So just who does?

 

The answer? No one. There aren't a lot of cities clamoring for teams. There aren't a lot of rich guys making waves that they want to buy other cities' teams and move them to their own. LA wants a team because they are LA but the fans there don't even care. This is all because Ralph wants to keep the team here and is trying to find the best way to do it. In fact, keeping it in his family almost assures it. The idea that he is saying I am making no promises now is better for us. I can't imagine a scenario where he leaves it to his wife or daughters and then they move it. The Bills are here to stay in the near and very probably long term future. It's just a matter of how much money they will have to spend. Ralph is doing the right thing and he is crying poverty even though he is not poor. That is why he's getting some traction from some people trying to help him but little sympathy around the league at this point.

[Corp000085]

the best thing to happen to the bills would be the saints, vikings, chargers, etc. to move to LA before ralph dies.

[mead107]

when it happens it happens , if it happens , till it happens i am going to as many bills game as i can . i love bills football . ------ GO BILLS

[Gavin in Va Beach]

Thank you Gordon Gekko...

 

 

[JDG]

Sorry Kelly,

 

But no way. First of all, Daniel Snyder is a fan, so he is willing to spend. He also understands, however, that winning sells. Moreover, he also understands that "buzz" in the form of high-priced free agents and coaches also sells. For all his spending, I believe that Daniel Snyder is currently running the most-profitable team in the NFL. So much for that theory.

 

I think you are whistling in the graveyard if you continue to buy this line about LA fans not even caring. Even if you add up Buffalo, Rochester, Hamilton, Toronto, Syracuse, Binghamton, and whatever else you want to add in - Los Angeles is still almost *twice* that. That's a lot more money available on which to market the team - and a lot more shared revenue going into the other owners' pockets. Los Angeles lost their previous teams nearly a decade ago, a decade in which the area has grown by more than 10%. Moreover, the LA teams had dilapidated stadiums that were unattractive and much more importantly, *unprofitable.* Lastly, both teams got sweatheart deals from other markets in order to move. Put one of these new stadiums in LA, though, and just watch the team rake in the money.

 

And Los Angeles isn't just the only market that wants a team (or two). San Antonio-Austin has wanted a team for over a decade. There's been periodic interest from Portland, Memphis, and even Norfolk-Virginia Beach.

 

Finally, its worth remembering that Ralph Wilson bought the Bills from $25,000 and they are now worth $700 million. Most analyses don't see how any of the Wilsons could possibly afford the capital gains taxes on the Bills upon Ralph Wilson's death. That would mean that the Bills would go up for sale, and in that event, the other NFL owners get to approve the sale before it is finalized. Given how much more profitable the Bills would be in Los Angeles than Buffalo - I hope that Golisano has a good anti-trust lawyer.

 

JDG

[Kelly the Dog]

Sorry Kelly,

 

But no way.  First of all, Daniel Snyder is a fan, so he is willing to spend.  He also understands, however, that winning sells.  Moreover, he also understands that "buzz" in the form of high-priced free agents and coaches also sells.  For all his spending, I believe that Daniel Snyder is currently running the most-profitable team in the NFL.    So much for that theory. 

 

I think you are whistling in the graveyard if you continue to buy this line about LA fans not even caring.  Even if you add up Buffalo, Rochester, Hamilton, Toronto, Syracuse, Binghamton, and whatever else you want to add in - Los Angeles is still almost *twice* that.  That's a lot more money available on which to market the team - and a lot more shared revenue going into the other owners' pockets.  Los Angeles lost their previous teams nearly a decade ago, a decade in which the area has grown by more than 10%.  Moreover, the LA teams had dilapidated stadiums that were unattractive and much more importantly, *unprofitable.*    Lastly, both teams got sweatheart deals from other markets in order to move.  Put one of these new stadiums in LA, though, and just watch the team rake in the money.

 

And Los Angeles isn't just the only market that wants a team (or two).  San Antonio-Austin has wanted a team for over a decade.  There's been periodic interest from Portland, Memphis, and even Norfolk-Virginia Beach. 

 

Finally, its worth remembering that Ralph Wilson bought the Bills from $25,000 and they are now worth $700 million.    Most analyses don't see how any of the Wilsons could possibly afford the capital gains taxes on the Bills upon Ralph Wilson's death.    That would mean that the Bills would go up for sale, and in that event, the other NFL owners get to approve the sale before it is finalized.  Given how much more profitable the Bills would be in Los Angeles than Buffalo - I hope that Golisano has a good anti-trust lawyer.

 

JDG

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I live in LA. I have been here for 11 years. I have never heard one person, not one, tell me they want a team here because they think LA needs a team. And I talk football all the time. The people that are LA natives never had much interest in the Rams whatsoever, and they struggled to get fans to their games and they had great teams. The Raiders had a decent interest but that was 90% because of the thug image that the Scull and Bones insignia and the gangbangers adopted team. Most people that lived here were scared to go to their own team's home games. The real problem is that the vast majority of LA, I would say way over 80% of its total population are either foreignors with little interest in football that is not soccer or displaced Americans from other cities who virtually ALL root for their original teams from their hometowns. The bars with NFL season ticket are packed all over because those fans root for their teams and an LA team would be far down the list as a #2 if considered at all.

 

You're also ignoring the original point. Daniel Snyder wants to win, not make money. He could make 20 million more a year if he wanted to make money. Do you really think that given the choice, Daniel Snyder would want a rich owner with a new stadium in LA trying to outspend Dan himself for the top name high profile free agents versus Ralph Wilson in Buffalo sitting on his hands crying the blues? Hell no. Snyder runs a profitable team because of the city he is in, period. And he did a good job with the stadium and its luxury boxes because of the city he is in, period.

 

I'm sure San Antonio wants a team but it's a crappy sports town and it has been proven and if they cannot get the Saints to come there after that mess do you think they are a strong contender for a team?

[apuszczalowski]

There is no way they will move the Saints because they were struck by a tradgedy and no one wants to be the evil man who continued to destroy them. (well except for their owner) They will move, but it won't be for a few years after they have to bemoved cause they are on the brink of bankrupcy. The league probably had them penciled into the new LA site but Katrina kind f ruined that plan.

 

Minnesota now has a new owner so they will not be going anywhere for a couple of years (until the new owner can prove he has to cause they can't afford to stay)

 

Jacksonville is a newer franchise so the NFL may prefer they stay cause they are also a growing market (with a non growing fan base)

 

San Diego and Oakland could move, but for them to move, its that big of a deal cause there fans would probably just go with them since its not that far of a move (almost like just building them a new stadium in a different city)

 

Buffalo would be one of the top teams likely to move cause we all know the team will eventually be sold in the next 5-10 years, and the new CBA is really going to help them stay.

 

Although somehow the NFL will try to look simpithatic to Bills fans and make it look like they tried to do all they could to save the team and put us somewhere near the top of the expansion team list.

[dave mcbride]

imagine, for a second, if you can, being in indianapolis or minnesota within the past three years. given the ownership and stadium situations, the odds that the team would leave were grimmer there than they are presently in buffalo. of course, if you were a resident of either city, you'd no longer be worried. flash forward seven years and imagine a new stadium in buffalo with a retractable roof and a relatively small and poor population base spending more than they should on tickets. 'cause that's what's gonna happen.

[Gavin in Va Beach]

flash forward seven years and imagine a new stadium in buffalo with a retractable roof and a relatively small and poor population base spending more than they should on tickets. 'cause that's what's gonna happen.

657556[/snapback]

 

That's assuming that the economic situation in WNY continues to deteriorate. At some point it has to bottom out and then start heading back up...doesn't it?

[vinuch]

Did anyone see the article that Jimbo and Jack Kemp are going to step in if there is ever a question of the team moving. This team isn't going anywhere.

[Dan]

In reading the latest news article Ralph says,

 

"As to my succession, I don't know what I'm going to do now," he said "Before, I was going to sell the team or something, but I don't know now. This has changed everything."

 

Could it be that Ralph is making all this fuss, because he was planning to sell the team. However, the new "qualifiers" make it difficult because a new owner would lose the revenue sharing if they stayed in Buffalo. ?? So now his potential buyers are getting cold feet.

[MadBuffaloDisease]

I usually agree with you Kelly, but you're off here if you don't think that Snyder wants to make more money. To quote "Badlands" by Springsteen (a great song, BTW): "Poor man wanna be rich, rich man wanna be king. And a king ain't satisfied, till he rules everything"

[JDG]

You're also ignoring the original point. Daniel Snyder wants to win, not make money. He could make 20 million more a year if he wanted to make money. Do you really think that given the choice, Daniel Snyder would want a rich owner with a new stadium in LA trying to outspend Dan himself for the top name high profile free agents versus Ralph Wilson in Buffalo sitting on his hands crying the blues? Hell no. Snyder runs a profitable team because of the city he is in, period. And he did a good job with the stadium and its luxury boxes because of the city he is in, period.

657553[/snapback]

 

Kelly,

 

You and I have disagreed several times on this Board, sometimes on matter of legitimate opinion. You've rarely, if ever, however, been as spectacularly wrong as you are now.

 

The NFL has been trying to line up a stadium deal in Los Angeles for a decade now, without any team to put there. Who do you think is pushing it? It ain't the small-market owners. Can you really serious believe that Jerry Jones and Daniel Snyder wouldn't love to have a team in Los Angeles to boost league-wide revenues?

 

Your theory about Snyder, Jones, Kraft & Co. wanting to spend the small markets into oblivion is particularly cockamanie given the most recent CBA agreement. It was the big-revenue teams that ultimately led the way towards reaching compromise on new revenue sharing and a new salary cap. If Daniel Snyder wanted to become the Yankees of football, and basically a permanent playoff presence, surely he would have been hoping for the salary cap to go away.

 

Moreover, Los Angeles has several multiples the number of people of WNY. Just think of how many tickets at high prices could be sold at a shiny new football stadium in LA. And now imagine how much more luxury box revenue could be taken in by an LA franchise than a Buffalo franchise. And also how much more local TV advertisements and local radio rights could be sold for in LA than in Buffalo. Oh yes, and a team in LA would probably sell what - 2-3 times as much merchandise as a team in Buffalo?

 

As for your other points - yes Daniel Snyder has done well by virtue of being in Washington... but he's also shown some business acumen about it. I don't think it is an absolute given that the NFL's Washington franchise would be the League's most-profitable. In fact, I think its kind of surprising. The Redskins' business success has also come about through some astute business management.

 

And finally, I think it would be foolish to judge a market's appetite from football on the basis of their attendance at *another* city's teams' games being played on a temporary basis in that city, and in a down year for that team as well. A large part of what the NFL sells is "civic pride", and putting a few games of a lousy New Orleans' Saints team in San Antonio wasn't doing anything for the San Antonio market.

 

JDG

[Kelly the Dog]

I usually agree with you Kelly, but you're off here if you don't think that Snyder wants to make more money.  To quote "Badlands" by Springsteen (a great song, BTW): "Poor man wanna be rich, rich man wanna be king.  And a king ain't satisfied, till he rules everything"

657777[/snapback]

I don't mean he doesn't want to make money at all. Of course he does. Everyone does. But his prime "greed" is not making the most money, it's spending the most money and other people not being able to compete with him. His prime motivator is not to increase his wealth, it's to increase his status. He's the human LAMP. Again, I ask the question, who do you think Daniel Snyder and Jerry Jones want to go up against, Ralph Wilson in Buffalo, or a rich, new, young, agressive, loaded owner of the Los Angeles Bills with a new stadium and a billion dollars itching to compete with them for the top name free agents? Sure they want the NFL to line their pockets and they want to make the most money they can, but they want to make the most money they can while trying to BUY a championship. And they love having guys like Ralph whine.

 

People just assume that rich owners are all these money grabbing businessmen who want to make the most money they can. That is just not true and there is little history to prove it. There are not only all different kinds of owners in the NFL but there is much more ego involved than money grubbing greed involved. They aren't in this to make the most profit they can. You ca n make a LOT more money in almost any business if you have 700 million dollars than you can with the NFL. They do it because its one of the most exclusive clubs in the world, it's extremely high profile, it's the greatest job in the friggin' world, they love themselves and they love football.

[Kelly the Dog]

Kelly,

 

You and I have disagreed several times on this Board, sometimes on matter of legitimate opinion.  You've rarely, if ever, however, been as spectacularly wrong as you are now. 

 

The NFL has been trying to line up a stadium deal in Los Angeles for a decade now, without any team to put there.  Who do you think is pushing it?  It ain't the small-market owners.    Can you really serious believe that Jerry Jones and Daniel Snyder wouldn't love to have a team in Los Angeles to boost league-wide revenues?

 

Your theory about Snyder, Jones, Kraft & Co. wanting to spend the small markets into oblivion is particularly cockamanie given the most recent CBA agreement.  It was the big-revenue teams that ultimately led the way towards reaching compromise on new revenue sharing and a new salary cap.  If Daniel Snyder wanted to become the Yankees of football, and basically a permanent playoff presence, surely he would have been hoping for the salary cap to go away. 

 

Moreover, Los Angeles has several multiples the number of people of WNY.  Just think of how many tickets at high prices could be sold at a shiny new football stadium in LA.  And now imagine how much more luxury box revenue could be taken in by an LA franchise than a Buffalo franchise.  And also how much more local TV advertisements and local radio rights could be sold for in LA than in Buffalo.  Oh yes, and a team in LA would probably sell what - 2-3 times as much merchandise as a team in Buffalo?

 

As for your other points - yes Daniel Snyder has done well by virtue of being in Washington... but he's also shown some business acumen about it.  I don't think it is an absolute given that the NFL's Washington franchise would be the League's most-profitable.  In fact, I think its kind of surprising.  The Redskins' business success has also come about through some astute business management. 

 

And finally, I think it would be foolish to judge a market's appetite from football on the basis of their attendance at *another* city's teams' games being played on a temporary basis in that city, and in a down year for that team as well.  A large part of what the NFL sells is "civic pride", and putting a few games of a lousy New Orleans' Saints team in San Antonio wasn't doing anything for the San Antonio market.

 

JDG

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yes, of course the NFL wants a team in Los Angeles. But if they needed or REALLY wanted to have a team there and needed the money, there would have been a team there 10 years ago, or 9 or 8 or 7... The NFL does not need Los Angeles. In fact, as a couple of posters have shrewdly noted before, the NFL actually makes more money by NOT having a team here and other teams threatening to move here, thus jumping their worth and deals by a 100 million. That has made the NFL more than they would ever make with a team here. People in general and you in particular are just assuming things to be true about cities and markets and owners that have no history to them, and without thinking about what is really going on.

 

MOST businessmen worth a billion dollars are in business to make money, and as much money as they can. The vast majority to be sure. 99%. That is how they got a billion dollars. That is what business is all about. But just because that is true does not mean that the 32 guys who own NFL franchises are there for that reason. They are not. This is a unique thing with unique circumstances with a unique financial situation with EGO to the max involved. It can not and should not be looked at like other businesses because it is not.

[Marv's Neighbor]

the best thing to happen to the bills would be the saints, vikings, chargers, etc. to move to LA before ralph dies.

657504[/snapback]

The next best thing would be for the bone-head NFL to forget LA!

 

Been there, done that, twice, with zero success.

 

Do they think the 500,000 illegals demanding their rights give a sh*t about NFL football? Could they afford season tickets, parking, a couple of $8 beers and IF they could would they be interested? Will they eventually drive the popoulation farther out of the city?

 

The great perceived fan base is not interested in fighting the traffic to/from a game, at a yet to be determined location, after running the traffic rat race from hell, for the previous 5 day work week.

 

LA is in the past and Tags needs to wake up, get a grip, and tend to what he has, while it lasts!

[Typical TBD Guy]

An interesting theory, Kelly.

 

But how do you explain the new CBA agreement? Just a simple mistake? If Snyder really did want to keep the Bills in Buffalo as you say, then we'd be hearing his outspokenness on its various anti-small market clauses. But all we're hearing from Snyder and the other big market owners are crickets chirping...

 

That's because these guys were the chief architects of the CBA contract, and it WAS written with a purpose - to drive out the small market teams that annually eat into the revenue which mostly the big markets generate.

 

Also, keep in mind that wanting to win and wanting to maximize profit are not 2 mutually exclusive desires; both can fuel Snyder's ego at the same time.

[apuszczalowski]

Did anyone see the article that Jimbo and Jack Kemp are going to step in if there is ever a question of the team moving. This team isn't going anywhere.

657723[/snapback]

 

As nice as that would be, I don't think either of them have the money to afford the Bills and I doubt the NFL is going to come in and save the team cause a couple of Ex-Bills are going to fight the move.

[Kelly the Dog]

An interesting theory, Kelly.

 

But how do you explain the new CBA agreement? Just a simple mistake? If Snyder really did want to keep the Bills in Buffalo as you say, then we'd be hearing his outspokenness on its various anti-small market clauses. But all we're hearing from Snyder and the other big market owners are crickets chirping...

 

That's because these guys were the chief architects of the CBA contract, and it WAS written with a purpose - to drive out the small market teams that annually eat into the revenue which mostly the big markets generate.

 

Also, keep in mind that wanting to win and wanting to maximize profit are not 2 mutually exclusive desires; both can fuel Snyder's ego at the same time.

657817[/snapback]

I think Ralph was right in the fact the thing was not given enough time. BUT, they had to do it to get the thing done. There is time to go back and fix its myriad of problems.

 

I also think that some of the laws were made for a specific purpose but since it didnt have the time for all of the possible scenarios to be considered they were crappy laws and need to be revised. This is the stuff that Ralph says needs to be addressed and it's good he's doing it now.

 

These things, like the fact new owners won't be allowed part of the revenue sharing to me seems like it was designed to prevent one thing but in reality affects other things it wasn't designed for. So it needs to be tweaked so the spirit of the law is left but abuses or collateral damage is not severe. That, IMO, will be addressed in the revenue sharing problem so changes in ownership in a small market team like the Bills will not suffer. It's possible that it was a death target in a deviant attempt to poison Ralph but I highly, highly doubt it.

 

There seems to be a lot of flaws in the laws because of the time restraints, but they will likely be addressed and fixed.

[MadBuffaloDisease]

Dan Snyder doesn't strike me as a guy who is afraid of competition, Kelly. That's basically what you're saying. If you're the best, or THINK you're the best, you want to go UP against the best, and win. And you want to make as much money as possible and have the best overall product, weeding out the smaller guys/markets. I'm sure Buffalo is an annoying pimple on the ass of most of these asses.